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Brent left the chat
If you have access to one and someplace to try this out take something like an XR250 out in a field and lay out a course with some ribbon. No (or minimal) jumps, just a fun easy to ride track. Obviously the bike has worlds less suspension and power and this is gonna seem really lame but ride for about 1/2 hour. I'll bet anything you have a bigger smile on your face than you've had on any modern bike in years, and if you have friends there it'll quickly turn into who can spin the fastest lap. This is what motocross was like when a lot of us started. The XR actually has 6 more horsepower than a stock '73 125 Elsinore (best bike ever by the way), way better suspension and handling, and we all thought the Elsie was a gift from god. It's not the power or suspension of modern bikes that make this sport fun, and it's certainly with out question not modern tracks. It's hanging out with your friends, riding at the limit of your ability and fitness and having fun. Unfortunately we've lost sight of this and created a monster that we don't seem to be able to unwind and like others on here I'm afraid others are going to fix the problem for us.
I agree. Wringing out a slow bike is every bit as satisfying as riding something faster and just hanging on!
Also, a race is a race. As long as you’re on somewhat equal bikes, who cares how fast they are.
Totally agree. I want the next better thing too. We are our own worst enemy. In almost everything in life I'm for less rules, less control from above but probably the only thing that could effect real change here would be a change in the rules. It would be nice if Davy still came here, but we scared him away long ago. Maybe he still lurks.....
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For those that missed it, Brent said the 450s aren’t too fast because he’s been riding for years and the 450s allow him to jump big jumps he wouldn’t otherwise do as other bikes don’t allow you to hit them if you don’t have the technique to carry speed. Some pointed out that he proves the point with this thought that the bikes are too fast as they allow you to jump stuff you really shouldn’t be jumping, and that eventually gets you in trouble.
Nobody is clamoring for a 490 or 550 4 stroke mx bike..... wonder why?
I think deep down most know a 450 is too much already.....
As others have mentioned, the tracks are a response to the bikes. Need big jumps and ruts and rough terrain or everyone would be doing 60mph between every turn with these bikes. If bikes are slower the track will naturally be more sane.
I think technology advances in safety equipment would be great. Alpinestars is trying to make the sport safer with the inflatable chest protector. It's not perfect right now, but hopefully it gets better. If they can perfect that, then a good idea would be to require that type of technology with youth riders.
I would be surprised if it's more dangerous now. Due to the internet and social media, we just hear about more of the injuries.
This can actually be done, "easily" in the sense that it's easy to figure out HOW, but you almost need fresh track build on a bit more land anywhere you want to implement it.
The lines need to re-converge at the next corner EXIT, and have some sort of physical separation, a berm will do, or slight elevation difference.
Turn1 gets split at entry, one line, inside or outside gets the jump lane, should be less technical to turn and clear jump for a skilled enough rider. Other line gets the straight. You can add something safety friendly to the straight, a chicane, rollers, a tabletop, a big ass single speed check, whatever.
At the entry to Turn 2 you have the jump line and straight line, whichever "line" was faster gets the more technical turn entry, radius, prep, etc - they then exit together.
It would actually be spectator fun in all but the most pro classes as guys would choose the option line for passes, comfort, etc.
Been to some hare scramble races where they do similar, have a shorter, more technical section often with logs vs a easier bypass that is longer to try and make them even or slight time advantage for taking the more technical line
A 125 Volt electric class would be a good way to bring back old school moto for a new generation.
Mid 70’s, Buddy of mine had 4 Puch mopeds, cause his old man thought his whole family would go cruising around on them in the evening. As with most well intentioned things, it did not happen. We started taking the mopeds out to a field near our homes and it soon devolved into mopedcross, a beautiful sport that had a top speed of maybe 20 MPH. We had so much fun beating the hell out of those Puchs, and ramming each other onto the ground, never separated by more than 10 feet. I literally had as much fun that summer as I had 2 years later racing NESC . Slowing bikes down Moto bikes will not slow down the fun available.
That's where I got the idea, I do it on my own turn track and trails, I have a "go around" for every log or jump, but I make them slightly longer and re-convene into a wide turn.
I think a lot about how to keep it implemented in my fantasy track build.
Breezewood in PA has a similar setup at their water jump.
Competitive Edge used to do something similar on the uphill step overs. Vet guy line with a 30 table over the top, pro lip in the middle of the hill with a 90’ or so leap. Pro guys would end up outside of the next turn and old dudes on the inside. It separates the landing too.
I think tracks actually used to be way more gnarly, and safer.
I feel like pre 4 stroke tracks were more technical and had more jumps, then after 4 strokes we traded 40 foot doubles right after a corner, to triple step ups with 100 ft run ins.
Back when 4 strokes became more popular I remember being at the track and there was a guy visiting from California pitted next to me. He asked where all of the big jumps were, back home the tracks had big 100ft+ tables.
I then watched him refuse to hit a decent sized double right out of a corner, and it made me question why he wanted the big jumps when he couldn’t do the mid sized jumps.
As tracks evolved it made more sense to me, anyone can do big jumps when all it requires is twisting the throttle
Big speeds+big jumps is a recipe for a disaster.
If you case a mid sized double, it’s going to suck, and it’s probably going to hurt.
You case/OJ/land sideways on a 100ft table, youre probably going to the hospital
To play devil's advocate: it seems that the biggest danger - the cause of a lot of fatalities - is getting run over or landed on. I suppose that slower bikes can help prevent some of this - less speed means more time to react if a guy goes down in front of you. But that doesn't sound like a problem caused primarily by bikes being too fast. You can go plenty fast on a 125. Unfortunately, when several dozen bikes are going all out on a motocross track, sometimes someone will get run over and sometimes the results will be catastrophic. As far as being landed on, well-trained flaggers are the best solution - and riders that respond appropriately to the flags. Here too, unfortunately, not all accidents are preventable since someone might already be on the takeoff when you go down on the landing. These sorts of things are risks that will always be there, regardless of what happens with bikes. The counterpoint is that lower skilled riders won't be going down on some of these landings with a slower bike because they wouldn't be skilled enough to have the speed to hit these jumps. Four strokes are so powerful and easy to ride that you can have little corner speed and just turn the throttle to hit the jump however fast you want. You can't do that on a less powerful and tractable machine that requires you to carry momentum. This sounds to me like an argument for restricting C class and younger riders to lower CC bikes - no 350 or 450 4 strokes for them. In the case of younger riders (say, under 16?), stick to 125 2 strokes.
Track design in supercross is another factor. When Jerry Robin was injured, the jumps looked especially steep and peaked without a lot of forgiveness factor built into their design. Is it possible to build in some forgiveness into landings and rhythm sections without taking anything away from the racing? If so, that sounds like a no brainer. In outdoor MX, speeds are generally higher - why not add obstacles that slow riders down a bit?
Track design, restricting which bikes lower ages and skill levels are allowed to race (like someone else said - no 450 C class), and ensuring safety protocols are followed with flagging, etc. (as much as is possible) sound to me like things that can realistically be addressed. Is it realistic to think that manufacturers will actually just stop making extremely powerful and capable bikes?
Local hard pack track you hit square holes at angles & straight on some corners hv a lot of them & all across the track with rocks . Most say it’s too sketchy & dangerous. 2 yrs ago the Euro layout was good the jumps could’ve been bigger but they where fun. The jumps are smaller now a vet guy that did LL on 80,s against RC wished for bigger jumps too. It’s Great practice 1 part has 2 sections of 5 big steep rollers into a steep bowl berm AX like . That doesn’t match the track style. Mudd & water standing in between them made it tricky jumping in . You hope under the mud it’s firm clay. You hv alot of close calls trying to ride the gnarly holes . Faster in them i in them is smoother hit angled hole & the bike Flies air burn & lands a few ovr.The riders cut a few laps then run a small track on the flat it has a big double etc. less risky to ride that track .
I have not read all of the posts yet, but have some. I will say, there was a race at one of the SMX rounds either last year or the first year, and RC and Aussie guy (Diffy?) were announcing, and they ran the 85's at that race and it was televised. THE 85'S were racing the same SMX track with all the big jumps and chop and ruts.
During the race kids are crashing and dropping like flys. When it was caught on camera, they would switch cameras and not say anything. But, there was a kid in the top 3, and he was running well, clearing the massive jumps, which you had to do to run in that top 5, so Diffy starts talking about how he had a race in Florida or somewhere the next day. And how his dad would be driving the motorhome all night while his child sleeps after the race to get him there. But you know what happens next, the kid has a horrific crash on camera while talking about this, and its so bad, he's injured and they cart him off.
Diffy and RC quickly move onto another rider, since the kid they focused on wouldn't be travelling overnight to his next race, but rather a short hop in an ambulance to the local hospital.
Fact was, the track never should've raced those 85's, and becasue the top 5 - 10 were clearing huge jumps and handling the chop and ruts, all the kids who wanted to be competitive had to. It was too much and a lot of kids ended their night early, some very injured.
I remember the 70's and all the rage was 3 wheelers. We had some. They killed a lot of people in the US in a short amount of time. Sure enough, the government stepped in, basically outlawed them in the US, and just like that, they disappeared.
Pit Row
It's so bizarre how the broadcast just ignores crashes on the track unless it's the stars. At Southwick somebody went down in the 2nd(?) 450 moto and there was a red cross flag for 2 or 3 laps, and barely a mention on the broadcast. They never named the downed rider.
It's evolution baby. The sport has evolved into what it is today through bike improvements over a fifty year period. You can't stop progress
I think I remember this, pretty sure you’re talking about Canyon Richards. Only clip I can find is this one at 1:35:
https://youtu.be/boIOiP2RgGY?si=HpDeo3tRh5Bw5H31
The risks involved with this sport have not changed, and will not change.
Really?
Show me some photos of the jumps in the 70s & 80s and lets compare them to now....
Show me some specs on the bikes from the 70s & 80s hell even the 90s and lets compare them to now....
I would love to have this debate with you based on relevant facts & information.
We’ve got to grow the sport…..
I get what you’re saying about 3 wheelers.
But look at how many people die riding 4 wheelers every year compared to Dirtbikes.
In the state of Virginia, there is almost 3-4 deaths per year on Memorial Day weekend every year.
And typically, those people are drinking, not wearing helmets, hit by utv’s, ect.
What I’m saying, is if I they haven’t outlawed 4 wheelers, I don’t see them outlawing Dirtbikes. I don’t hear of multiple racers/riders passing away every holiday weekend.
Do you have data from the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s and 20s showing the number of injuries and deaths from dirt bike related accidents?
I’ve been riding and racing dirt bikes newrly all of the above decades and there’s never not been injury and death in this sport. Has it increased so dramatically that somehow the risk involved is completely out of control? No.
Motocross is what it is because of the inherent risk. Buy a set of golf clubs if you want to avoid risk.
I'll say this every time this topic comes up.
Firstly: No, it is not time to do that.
When 3,000 people navigate the terrain without issue, we don’t change the world because one person doesn’t. There are far too many variables.
Secondly: Whenever something is built to go hog wild on, people will do just that. It’s just reality. People race lawnmowers. They get in tires and roll down hills. Nothing—absolutely nothing—is going to change that. People like to push limits.
It’s incredibly sad when people lose children to motocross. But they also lose them to drugs, car accidents, and countless other tragedies. Trying to rewrite the past—especially when you never had control over it in the first place—isn’t healthy.
Mammoth Motocross hasn't changed substantially in 45 years. Additionally it is not the tracks fault. I can speak from experience, the track is made by the best in the business with challenges and fun in mind.
Its not the tracks, the bikes, the air or anything else. All skill is in vain when an angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket.
It would be interesting to see that data if it existed . I've often wondered if the fact these occurances are known to everyone immediately now makes it seem more common .
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