Shootout’s are a laugh........

Fonzarelli
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Saginaw, MI, USA
8/15/2019 6:18am
- 5 different types of tracks
- 10 riders of different skill levels
Have them ride each bike as well as they can and make a chart with the laptimes.

Opinions and feelings about the bikes mean little. Real world numbers are what matters.
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ML512
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Fantasy
8/15/2019 6:20am Edited Date/Time 8/15/2019 6:37am
Fonzarelli wrote:
- 5 different types of tracks - 10 riders of different skill levels Have them ride each bike as well as they can and make a...
- 5 different types of tracks
- 10 riders of different skill levels
Have them ride each bike as well as they can and make a chart with the laptimes.

Opinions and feelings about the bikes mean little. Real world numbers are what matters.
What’s interesting with laptimes is not only best but average times as well. I ran into this last year when a good chunk of the guys set their best times on the CRF250R but their consistency on the bike was awful. The YZ250F on the other hand was typically around third for most guys on outright speed, but it was easy to replicate that lap over and over.
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fourfourone
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8/15/2019 6:31am
I swear people make these threads because they are butthurt that whatever they ride didn't get first place. I don't buy based on a shootout alone but I do take into consideration what they say. doesn't matter what place the bike gets. They say the new honda is finicky to set up. I would probably stay away from that bike because I hate messing with my suspension, especially after I finally get it feeling comfortable.

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duckdog77
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Laotto, IN, USA
8/15/2019 6:58am
I thought you bought bikes based off your favorite energy drink at the time. I’m currently into Monster so I ride a Kawasaki.

Ktm if you like Red Bull
Husky if you like rockstar

All the other bikes must be slow because they don’t have energy drink sponsors.

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The Shop

Racer111
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Concord, NC, USA
8/15/2019 7:01am
I swear people make these threads because they are butthurt that whatever they ride didn't get first place. I don't buy based on a shootout alone...
I swear people make these threads because they are butthurt that whatever they ride didn't get first place. I don't buy based on a shootout alone but I do take into consideration what they say. doesn't matter what place the bike gets. They say the new honda is finicky to set up. I would probably stay away from that bike because I hate messing with my suspension, especially after I finally get it feeling comfortable.

No, I was just pointing them out in general. I have a 2020 Honda CRF450R. I was simply commenting on how it appears that the rider is doing the exact opposite of the what they guy is saying on camera about the bike.
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8/15/2019 7:26am
Not all the shootouts are just "fast" riders. There were definitely some legit novice and vet guys at atleast one of them last year that I...
Not all the shootouts are just "fast" riders. There were definitely some legit novice and vet guys at atleast one of them last year that I saw with my own eyes.

Not all "fast" riders can actually test, and not all slow riders can't test. Some guys have it and some don't. I will say you can't have a completely out of control guy test simply because they can't replicate their actions/lines, but other than that, speed isn't a necessity to be a good test rider.

They have their place - the ranking/result is not the ultimate - but the info and breakdown can really help steer a decision.

aeffertz wrote:
"the ranking/result is not the ultimate - but the info and breakdown can really help steer a decision." This is the biggest thing most people seem...
"the ranking/result is not the ultimate - but the info and breakdown can really help steer a decision."

This is the biggest thing most people seem to overlook or not understand. Just because a bike got 2nd to last or last in a shootout doesn't mean the bike is trash. All the bikes are good these days and depending on your skillset or riding style, your ranking order could be different. That's why they always break down what people liked, what their skillset is, price and so on. Read/watch/listen to the breakdown of each bike and see what fits you the best.
ML512 wrote:
I say it every year, at no point do I think the winner of Shootouts is the bike everyone should go buy. I do think it’s...
I say it every year, at no point do I think the winner of Shootouts is the bike everyone should go buy. I do think it’s a well rounded bike typically to pull the W but I think the characteristics of the bikes as they’re explained is the true reason a shootout is useful, dissecting that to see which one would be the best choice to add to your garage.
Problem is you dont have a single big rider tester, also coming in with expectations of whats down the pipeline is also something you should never learn about prior to testing. To be able to get a unbiased opinion on these bikes you should exclude yourself from these reviews and find new riders every year (real world riders) not track testers. If you are gonna use track testers make sure you post up (LAP TIMES)

Furthermore I find it very funny that no more actual track times are being shown???

Back in its day track times showed me everything I needed to know about these bikes. Problem for these magazine companies was that they couldn't explain the fact the last place bike would always have the fastest lap times for almost every individual rider.

In real world racing and weekender rider alike, suspension and chassis is always the single most important part to a motor driven vehicle. Explain how the Suzuki, the best handling bikes for the past 20 years seems to get the short end of the stick each and every year?
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fourfourone
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86oh, CT, USA
8/15/2019 7:35am
aeffertz wrote:
"the ranking/result is not the ultimate - but the info and breakdown can really help steer a decision." This is the biggest thing most people seem...
"the ranking/result is not the ultimate - but the info and breakdown can really help steer a decision."

This is the biggest thing most people seem to overlook or not understand. Just because a bike got 2nd to last or last in a shootout doesn't mean the bike is trash. All the bikes are good these days and depending on your skillset or riding style, your ranking order could be different. That's why they always break down what people liked, what their skillset is, price and so on. Read/watch/listen to the breakdown of each bike and see what fits you the best.
ML512 wrote:
I say it every year, at no point do I think the winner of Shootouts is the bike everyone should go buy. I do think it’s...
I say it every year, at no point do I think the winner of Shootouts is the bike everyone should go buy. I do think it’s a well rounded bike typically to pull the W but I think the characteristics of the bikes as they’re explained is the true reason a shootout is useful, dissecting that to see which one would be the best choice to add to your garage.
Problem is you dont have a single big rider tester, also coming in with expectations of whats down the pipeline is also something you should never...
Problem is you dont have a single big rider tester, also coming in with expectations of whats down the pipeline is also something you should never learn about prior to testing. To be able to get a unbiased opinion on these bikes you should exclude yourself from these reviews and find new riders every year (real world riders) not track testers. If you are gonna use track testers make sure you post up (LAP TIMES)

Furthermore I find it very funny that no more actual track times are being shown???

Back in its day track times showed me everything I needed to know about these bikes. Problem for these magazine companies was that they couldn't explain the fact the last place bike would always have the fastest lap times for almost every individual rider.

In real world racing and weekender rider alike, suspension and chassis is always the single most important part to a motor driven vehicle. Explain how the Suzuki, the best handling bikes for the past 20 years seems to get the short end of the stick each and every year?
Because it lacks in every department. There is nothing wrong with is but Suzuki guys always use the "it handles well" crutch". That's great but while all the other companies are moving forward Suzuki is standing still. Trust me ive riden them and they are fine bikes but there are a reason that only a small percentage of people are racing them compared to other brands(local level).
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Knobbyjake
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8/15/2019 7:53am
kb228 wrote:
MXA is off because theyre biased toward KTM. MXA is the CNN of moto media. Anyways, takes good riders to test bikes. Do we really want...
MXA is off because theyre biased toward KTM.

MXA is the CNN of moto media.

Anyways, takes good riders to test bikes. Do we really want C level riders out there who cant feel a difference in fork height? If 10 different A/B class guys give the same feedback that should be pretty good.
"MXA is the CNN of moto media. "
Could be worse, they could be the Fox news of the sport. Whistling
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PRM31
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8/15/2019 8:09am
The most valuable part of shootouts is the relative comparisons between the bikes, and especially those relative differences observed by riders of similar build and skill as myself. ML’s Vital shootouts were excellent for that.

Dependability is nice to also read about, but really only MXA touches on that.
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m21racing
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Reno, NV, USA
8/15/2019 8:14am
slipdog wrote:
The only correct answer is Honda...
Without wings, you ain't got a prayer.
You need the retro 80s gear to match.
Follow the leader, he's on a Honda! Wait, is that too gender specific?
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Hudd_421
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USA
8/15/2019 8:22am
So many guys I know will hop on eachother's bikes that are valved for individual weights and speeds. Rider X who weighs 170 will ride Rider Y's bike that's valved for 210 lbs and be like, yeah I just don't like the way the bike handles or rides....

Like bro, no shit. Most at my local track don't even know where their sag is at, or what effect compression and rebound do, let alone ever play with it.
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mx317
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8/15/2019 8:29am
I try to look at ALL the shootouts (very similar to a Meta-analysis) and determine a trend. If one bikes hovers near the top in all shootouts, it is a good bike. On the other hand, if one is near the bottom, well............ The funny part is I usually buy a new bike as soon as they are available before any shootouts are finished.
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Moto520
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8/15/2019 8:40am
get a tall guy in the shootouts as well.
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aeffertz
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La Crosse, WI, USA
8/15/2019 8:41am
Hudd_421 wrote:
So many guys I know will hop on eachother's bikes that are valved for individual weights and speeds. Rider X who weighs 170 will ride Rider...
So many guys I know will hop on eachother's bikes that are valved for individual weights and speeds. Rider X who weighs 170 will ride Rider Y's bike that's valved for 210 lbs and be like, yeah I just don't like the way the bike handles or rides....

Like bro, no shit. Most at my local track don't even know where their sag is at, or what effect compression and rebound do, let alone ever play with it.
My personal favorite is “My dad had a (insert brand here) back in the day it was a total price of crap! I’ll never buy one of those turds!” Like, that’s your only frame of reference? Dirt bikes, trucks, it’s always something. Come on...
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MPJC
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8/15/2019 8:47am
Racer111 wrote:
Ok, so 99% of us on here are nowhere near the top 20 guys in MX and SX. I know there are few former Pro’s that...
Ok, so 99% of us on here are nowhere near the top 20 guys in MX and SX. I know there are few former Pro’s that visit and post.....JT$, DV12 etc..... The main test riders for shootouts are damn good riders and on another level than most of us.......

The thing that cracks me up most about shootouts is when the main guy talking about the bike saying how said bike is overweight, motor is under horse powered, suspension needs a lot of work, hard to ride.......... Meanwhile the rider in the background is RIPPING around the track, scrubbing the $hit out of jumps and railing berms like a champ. 😂😂😂😂

And can someone tell me why Motocross Action is always completely off on their bike pics compared to the other magazines??
I'm trying to understand the point of this. Is it to say that shootouts are laughable and thus useless? Or, is it to simply say that there are things about shootouts that you find amusing, and they are, to at least some degree, useful nevertheless?





Hudd_421
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8/15/2019 9:02am
Hudd_421 wrote:
So many guys I know will hop on eachother's bikes that are valved for individual weights and speeds. Rider X who weighs 170 will ride Rider...
So many guys I know will hop on eachother's bikes that are valved for individual weights and speeds. Rider X who weighs 170 will ride Rider Y's bike that's valved for 210 lbs and be like, yeah I just don't like the way the bike handles or rides....

Like bro, no shit. Most at my local track don't even know where their sag is at, or what effect compression and rebound do, let alone ever play with it.
aeffertz wrote:
My personal favorite is “My dad had a (insert brand here) back in the day it was a total price of crap! I’ll never buy one...
My personal favorite is “My dad had a (insert brand here) back in the day it was a total price of crap! I’ll never buy one of those turds!” Like, that’s your only frame of reference? Dirt bikes, trucks, it’s always something. Come on...
Yeah, my buddy got on a 18 CRF after riding a 14 RMZ. He couldn't believe how much better the Honda was...but he still is like "if the new zuke had electric start, I'd buy one right now. I just love suzukis"

I dont get it...like your Honda is so much better than the past bike, but you still asume a new RMZ is going to be a magic bike?
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captmoto
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA, USA
8/15/2019 9:03am Edited Date/Time 8/15/2019 9:04am
I like that ML bought these bikes to test. My biggest deal is dealer support. Second is the buzz going around by owners. Yamaha come out on top in the shootout but there are a few threads of YZ450 breaking with real low hours and no support from Yamaha. Foreman (sp?) has a long thread on all the problems he has had. Hus/KTM frames breaking or starting issues? Tough to adjust Suzuki shock?
You rarely read of test bikes having catastrophic failures and if they did the OEMs will be there in a hot minute with a back up bike if it isn't already sitting in the van. A catastrophic failure should put that bike out of a shootout because in real world ownership you would be without a bike for what, 2 weeks minimum? More likely 2-4 months. And then where is your confidence on that bike or brand?
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slipdog
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8/15/2019 9:09am
slipdog wrote:
The only correct answer is Honda...
m21racing wrote:
Without wings, you ain't got a prayer. You need the retro 80s gear to match. Follow the leader, he's on a Honda! Wait, is that too...
Without wings, you ain't got a prayer.
You need the retro 80s gear to match.
Follow the leader, he's on a Honda! Wait, is that too gender specific?
HOW DARE YOU!!!!
kaptkaos
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Miami, FL, USA
8/15/2019 10:06am
I read every shootout and I enjoy them. I used to buy a bike every 5 years or so, and it was always a 2-3 year old CRF. So if I decide to buy in 2023, I will remember the 2020 shootout and how the Honda did. I use it do decide which year CRF to buy, like I knew to avoid the 2009, so I got a 2008. I got a 2013 even though it didnt win, but the reviews were in line with what I expected. I am old and slow, it doesnt matter if you put me on a new YZF, I am not going any better than on my CRF, I will just look dumb with the wrong color gear (or maybe look like a Pro?).

I find the shoot-outs useful, when I read all of them, and look for the commonalities. I realize it sounds like work, and most Vitards would rather complain than read and comprehend, but thats the norm around here.

Right now we have the most and best shootouts we have ever had, and with video and sometimes before the bikes are even able to be purchased. Somehow people still arent happy. I remember when it wasnt this good.

Peace out.
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kijen
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Jacksonville, FL, USA
8/15/2019 12:26pm
I will never be fast on any bike I ride, i can tell the diff between suspenion that works and doesnt, balance , weight etc...but Im more concerened with reliability issues, mfg support, and parts availability. I would love a new bike but i cant be convinced that they are that much better...for me.
spimx
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Port Isabel, TX, USA
8/15/2019 12:34pm
ktmdan wrote:
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout? Serious question. The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250... My...
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
Serious question.
The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250...
My next bike will be a 300xc, 250xc, or kx450 if I can get a smoking deal on it. The KTMs because they make sense for my racing and the kx would be for contingency purposes. I would happily purchase a cheap rmz to have strictly for moto racing if I got a good deal. Point is, shoot outs have nothing to do with my next purchase.
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
yes
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zehn
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Anchorage, AK, USA
8/15/2019 12:38pm
Problem is you dont have a single big rider tester, also coming in with expectations of whats down the pipeline is also something you should never...
Problem is you dont have a single big rider tester, also coming in with expectations of whats down the pipeline is also something you should never learn about prior to testing. To be able to get a unbiased opinion on these bikes you should exclude yourself from these reviews and find new riders every year (real world riders) not track testers. If you are gonna use track testers make sure you post up (LAP TIMES)

Furthermore I find it very funny that no more actual track times are being shown???

Back in its day track times showed me everything I needed to know about these bikes. Problem for these magazine companies was that they couldn't explain the fact the last place bike would always have the fastest lap times for almost every individual rider.

In real world racing and weekender rider alike, suspension and chassis is always the single most important part to a motor driven vehicle. Explain how the Suzuki, the best handling bikes for the past 20 years seems to get the short end of the stick each and every year?
Are you really trying to win practice that much?
1
kb228
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Mansfield, OH, USA
8/15/2019 12:40pm
kb228 wrote:
MXA is off because theyre biased toward KTM. MXA is the CNN of moto media. Anyways, takes good riders to test bikes. Do we really want...
MXA is off because theyre biased toward KTM.

MXA is the CNN of moto media.

Anyways, takes good riders to test bikes. Do we really want C level riders out there who cant feel a difference in fork height? If 10 different A/B class guys give the same feedback that should be pretty good.
Knobbyjake wrote:
"MXA is the CNN of moto media. "
Could be worse, they could be the Fox news of the sport. Whistling
As if it matters. Theyre all equally terrible
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spimx
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8/15/2019 12:42pm
I would like to see more videos with lap times. The video with the Honda making a second a lap faster was cool.
So much of the shoot out is about how the bike feels and very little numbers are involved.

I know in F1 racing the driver gives almost no feedback all adjustments to the car are based on segment times, lap times and data collection.

I would like to see some testing like the pros do with data collection, lap times, and segment times. I understand the track changes but if you only have 6 bikes on the track and you take the fastest lap from every level of rider and find the bike that consistently ran the fastest lap per rider on multiple different days at different tracks how can any one argue with that.
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spimx
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8/15/2019 12:42pm
Shootouts are not a laugh. I like to watch em every year and so do a lot of people
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8/15/2019 12:48pm
ktmdan wrote:
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout? Serious question. The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250... My...
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
Serious question.
The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250...
My next bike will be a 300xc, 250xc, or kx450 if I can get a smoking deal on it. The KTMs because they make sense for my racing and the kx would be for contingency purposes. I would happily purchase a cheap rmz to have strictly for moto racing if I got a good deal. Point is, shoot outs have nothing to do with my next purchase.
spimx wrote:
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
yes
No
2
8/15/2019 1:05pm
I know a lot of motorcycle dealers personally and they say shootouts make all the difference in the world. They can help or hurt depending on the results
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Hudd_421
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USA
8/15/2019 1:06pm
ktmdan wrote:
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout? Serious question. The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250... My...
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
Serious question.
The 2016 shootouts kind of made me want a yzf250...
My next bike will be a 300xc, 250xc, or kx450 if I can get a smoking deal on it. The KTMs because they make sense for my racing and the kx would be for contingency purposes. I would happily purchase a cheap rmz to have strictly for moto racing if I got a good deal. Point is, shoot outs have nothing to do with my next purchase.
spimx wrote:
Has anyone reading this thread ever purchased a bike based on a shootout?
yes
No
I would say so. I bought my YZ after riding a buddies and the reported improvements for 19.

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8/15/2019 1:15pm
Most of the riders on here could go just as fast on a bone stock 2008 CRF450 as they could on anything 2020.

Hell, most of the guys on here could go faster if they just cut out one micky d's meal a week and jogged for a couple hours per week instead of buying 1500 exhaust systems and shiny new gear every month.
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scrallex
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Austin, TX, USA
8/15/2019 1:46pm
spimx wrote:
I would like to see more videos with lap times. The video with the Honda making a second a lap faster was cool. So much of...
I would like to see more videos with lap times. The video with the Honda making a second a lap faster was cool.
So much of the shoot out is about how the bike feels and very little numbers are involved.

I know in F1 racing the driver gives almost no feedback all adjustments to the car are based on segment times, lap times and data collection.

I would like to see some testing like the pros do with data collection, lap times, and segment times. I understand the track changes but if you only have 6 bikes on the track and you take the fastest lap from every level of rider and find the bike that consistently ran the fastest lap per rider on multiple different days at different tracks how can any one argue with that.
The problem of using lap times is that you get into the realm of comfort-ability to a specific brand and that skews empirical data.

I say this because I'm assuming you are referencing Jeff Walker's video where he posted one lap on all 6 bikes. Jeff Walker has spent a lot of time on a Honda. You can gather that from his videos. If anything, I would take a second a lap faster as his comfort-ability with the brand more than the bike being that much better than the others.

Doesn't mean you can't draw some conclusions from it, though.
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