2020 450 Shootouts

ML512
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8/14/2019 6:51am
RCMXracing wrote:
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period...
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period. Please comment.

As an owner of a ‘16 KTM 450 and now a 19.5 I was very happy with what KTM did with the frame change. The older gen bike was wallowy under braking and straight line acceleration in rollers and vague in corners compared to the new one which tracks straight and corners accurately. I will say when it was new it did have a very harsh feel. It took about 6 hours before it felt good. It will never feel as compliant as the older gen but I much prefer the accuracy.

I really hope KTM doesn’t succumb to pressure and go back to that softer frame! If they do I’ll look at switching to Honda in the future. *shrug*
I’m going to talk about break in periods a bit during the individual videos. The KTM and Husky for the first hour I put on them were brutally harsh, those two have a much longer break in period then any other bike.

As for the frame change, I think there are some positives for it but overall I’m definitely a bigger fan of the outgoing chassis and based off some comments I’ve heard, the majority of their Us factory riders preferred the older one as well.

The Honda isn’t anymore “comfortable” in a chassis sense then the KTM.
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Andy7
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Venado Tuerto, Santa Fe, AR
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8/14/2019 8:24am
0:48, is that a grip donut on the Honda? That´s a mayor mod, I agree with Mr.Info, you are deceiving us ML512.
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MPJC
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CA
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8/14/2019 8:35am
RCMXracing wrote:
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period...
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period. Please comment.

As an owner of a ‘16 KTM 450 and now a 19.5 I was very happy with what KTM did with the frame change. The older gen bike was wallowy under braking and straight line acceleration in rollers and vague in corners compared to the new one which tracks straight and corners accurately. I will say when it was new it did have a very harsh feel. It took about 6 hours before it felt good. It will never feel as compliant as the older gen but I much prefer the accuracy.

I really hope KTM doesn’t succumb to pressure and go back to that softer frame! If they do I’ll look at switching to Honda in the future. *shrug*
ML512 wrote:
I’m going to talk about break in periods a bit during the individual videos. The KTM and Husky for the first hour I put on them...
I’m going to talk about break in periods a bit during the individual videos. The KTM and Husky for the first hour I put on them were brutally harsh, those two have a much longer break in period then any other bike.

As for the frame change, I think there are some positives for it but overall I’m definitely a bigger fan of the outgoing chassis and based off some comments I’ve heard, the majority of their Us factory riders preferred the older one as well.

The Honda isn’t anymore “comfortable” in a chassis sense then the KTM.
I almost get the impression that comparisons to its previous (pre 2019) self hurts the KTM as much as comparisons to the other bikes in the shootout.
ML512
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8/14/2019 8:47am
RCMXracing wrote:
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period...
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period. Please comment.

As an owner of a ‘16 KTM 450 and now a 19.5 I was very happy with what KTM did with the frame change. The older gen bike was wallowy under braking and straight line acceleration in rollers and vague in corners compared to the new one which tracks straight and corners accurately. I will say when it was new it did have a very harsh feel. It took about 6 hours before it felt good. It will never feel as compliant as the older gen but I much prefer the accuracy.

I really hope KTM doesn’t succumb to pressure and go back to that softer frame! If they do I’ll look at switching to Honda in the future. *shrug*
ML512 wrote:
I’m going to talk about break in periods a bit during the individual videos. The KTM and Husky for the first hour I put on them...
I’m going to talk about break in periods a bit during the individual videos. The KTM and Husky for the first hour I put on them were brutally harsh, those two have a much longer break in period then any other bike.

As for the frame change, I think there are some positives for it but overall I’m definitely a bigger fan of the outgoing chassis and based off some comments I’ve heard, the majority of their Us factory riders preferred the older one as well.

The Honda isn’t anymore “comfortable” in a chassis sense then the KTM.
MPJC wrote:
I almost get the impression that comparisons to its previous (pre 2019) self hurts the KTM as much as comparisons to the other bikes in the...
I almost get the impression that comparisons to its previous (pre 2019) self hurts the KTM as much as comparisons to the other bikes in the shootout.
I guess in a sense, possibly. Every change made in a new year isn't always a step in the right direction for all.

The Shop

Premix
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8/14/2019 8:53am
Big E wrote:
What is a magazine?
That thing no one has bought since the mid 00’s.

Great job ML
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8/14/2019 9:00am
Paul333 has posted a reply in the forum topic 2020 450 Shootout | by Michael Lindsay:

My point is that until they build up credibility the ONLY reason they have an audience is because of Vital. They use it to push their agenda, attack other organizations nonstop, etc. No one except on the internet gets immediate credibility just because you and your friends demand it. It just doesn't work that way so, none of them should get mad when they don't automatically it. Posting on Vital isn't the issue. None of them are officially tied to Vital anymore. They are merely members. Nothing is on Vital itself. Hint: Jody/MXA has been at it for 40+ years. I know this kills the forum clique but that is a ton of credibility. Same can be said for Keefer, Swapmoto, Dirt Bike, Dirt Rider, etc. I personally applaud them doing testing. Maybe over time they as a clique will earn respect and the credibility they obviously crave. BUT, they aren't going to get it for real by simply demanding it, and attacking those that have done it for 40+ year. My suggestion: Do your tests, post your info. Stop attacking others. If you do a good job the credibility will come.


I got this reply notification from Paul333. I don't see it in the forum, deleted maybe?

Anyway, not sure what this "push their agenda, attack other organizations nonstop, etc" is about. I haven't seen ML512 do this, at least not in this thread. I don't read many posts on the forum so maybe I am missing something here??
GrapeApe
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8/14/2019 9:05am
Can anyone translate Paul333's posts? Nowhere in his incoherent ramblings can I find a point. He clearly feels like an outsider on Vital, but what does that have to do with ML's shootout?
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1
ML512
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8/14/2019 9:09am Edited Date/Time 8/14/2019 9:32am
[b]Paul333 has posted a reply in the forum topic 2020 450 Shootout | by Michael Lindsay: My point is that until they build up credibility the...
Paul333 has posted a reply in the forum topic 2020 450 Shootout | by Michael Lindsay:

My point is that until they build up credibility the ONLY reason they have an audience is because of Vital. They use it to push their agenda, attack other organizations nonstop, etc. No one except on the internet gets immediate credibility just because you and your friends demand it. It just doesn't work that way so, none of them should get mad when they don't automatically it. Posting on Vital isn't the issue. None of them are officially tied to Vital anymore. They are merely members. Nothing is on Vital itself. Hint: Jody/MXA has been at it for 40+ years. I know this kills the forum clique but that is a ton of credibility. Same can be said for Keefer, Swapmoto, Dirt Bike, Dirt Rider, etc. I personally applaud them doing testing. Maybe over time they as a clique will earn respect and the credibility they obviously crave. BUT, they aren't going to get it for real by simply demanding it, and attacking those that have done it for 40+ year. My suggestion: Do your tests, post your info. Stop attacking others. If you do a good job the credibility will come.


I got this reply notification from Paul333. I don't see it in the forum, deleted maybe?

Anyway, not sure what this "push their agenda, attack other organizations nonstop, etc" is about. I haven't seen ML512 do this, at least not in this thread. I don't read many posts on the forum so maybe I am missing something here??
This makes me laugh, because MXA has always had the we are better stance and attacked in snide comments first. Mr Info started the mess in this thread anyhow.

Year-after-year, my Shootouts at Vital crushed the views of others, so we definitely found an audience who respects what we did as a brand. And in a very new format/just a couple months in I'm competitive for views with the old guard of mags, in part due to the credibility I built up over the work I've done the past six years at Vital.

While I'm so thankful for the launching pad this site gave me I can confidently say that a big part of our testing growth came from users trust of my info and the features attached to my name. I don't need a brand or magazine to work for to give me my credibility. Much like Keefer, my credibility is my work, my words, and my name.
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GuyB
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Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
8/14/2019 9:25am
Funny that this has become the place to talk about it. Wink
11
twotwosix
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8/14/2019 9:27am
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



IMO you all have a long way to go to catch up to Keefer...
m21racing
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Reno, NV, USA
8/14/2019 9:40am
The yz450 breakdown vid was done well. We played with sag, and fork tube height on the '19s. Running 100mm seemed to please riders most.
1
dkg
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8/14/2019 9:59am
Rhetorical question here, but why did this thread turn into such a shit show at points? I've read Michael's postings on here for years, he's always come across pretty level headed and knowledgeable. He's also demonstrated a good understanding on his Pulpmx appearances. He's demonstrated his competency and I'd value his opinion. Arguing over whose (shootout) opinion is better or what is the preferred method is simply engaging in mental masturbation. I haven't seen any other shootouts yet for this year, but I suspect most will have experience and knowledge based opinions. Why not use the shootouts collectively to form your own conclusion?
5
jjavaman
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8/14/2019 10:01am
ML512 wrote:
The Husqvarna was purchase from AEO Powersports in Murrieta, big thanks to Jeremy over there for helping me out even though I have a deal with...
The Husqvarna was purchase from AEO Powersports in Murrieta, big thanks to Jeremy over there for helping me out even though I have a deal with Chaparral.

And yes, I did piss off some magazines. I got calls about it all week from OEMs who said that one of them had threatened them over my Shootout.

As for the Yamaha, the mags can wait because they’re waiting on their loaner bikes from the OEM. Which means they have to sign a NDA when they test them. Mine was privately acquired so I didn’t have to sign a NDA.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Ummm... why would any magazine be pissed off and threaten anything?? Wtf??
Probably threatening to leave Yamaha out if they didn't get bikes faster, holding everything up including the Suzuki's new graphics. Pretty unlikely it's MXA since they...
Probably threatening to leave Yamaha out if they didn't get bikes faster, holding everything up including the Suzuki's new graphics.

Pretty unlikely it's MXA since they don't release shootouts for months.
He already said it wasn’t MXA
Mr. Info
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8/14/2019 10:11am
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but because you assume its an attack you become defensive which is know as a sign of guilt. Just tell the truth was all I asked.
34
aeffertz
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8/14/2019 10:32am
Mr. Info wrote:
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but...
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but because you assume its an attack you become defensive which is know as a sign of guilt. Just tell the truth was all I asked.
You're out of your mind! Let me remind you what you said when only a few posters commented on the video...

Chaparral does not sell Husqvarna’s so how did you buy a bike they don’t sell. And Yamaha has not done the 450 intro yet. You have pissed a lot of the magazines making them angry trying to one up them instead of playing by industry practice. Seems like you have a hidden agenda ML.
What else in this shootout is also not true. You don’t have credibility with several mags their words not mine. And I have no credibility with anybody and that’s ok but your burning bridges you might one day need to cross. Your only hurting yourself.


All he did was go out, buy some bikes and talk about them. Then you and a couple others come in and start spewing BS about how he's burning bridges, lying, being deceitful, taking shots at magazines, doesn't have the right to do this, etc. It's absolute madness how you are trying to tear him down and accuse him of doing shit he didn't do.

F.O.H.
21
cody41
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Miami, FL, USA
8/14/2019 10:54am
Just watched the yz450f video... awesome analysis. This is what I’ve been looking for in a test. Keep up the great work.
2
8/14/2019 10:55am
Mr. Info wrote:
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but...
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but because you assume its an attack you become defensive which is know as a sign of guilt. Just tell the truth was all I asked.
What was Michael not honest about? Please, enlighten us.
6
8/14/2019 11:00am
Mr. Info wrote:
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but...
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but because you assume its an attack you become defensive which is know as a sign of guilt. Just tell the truth was all I asked.
OK, Mr. Disinfo, what specifically are the lies ML told that you're referring to? The 2019 Suzuki? He made it clear in the video the bike was a 2019.

So please, point out the lies specifically. Other than that, I just heard from Bud that you forgot to sweep out the tower and empty the trash can next to his desk.
11
TeamGreen
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8/14/2019 11:05am
Mr. Info wrote:
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but...
Stating fact is not starting a mess, Not being honest started the mess and my reporting it was just a comment like all the others but because you assume its an attack you become defensive which is know as a sign of guilt. Just tell the truth was all I asked.
OK, Mr. Disinfo, what specifically are the lies ML told that you're referring to? The 2019 Suzuki? He made it clear in the video the bike...
OK, Mr. Disinfo, what specifically are the lies ML told that you're referring to? The 2019 Suzuki? He made it clear in the video the bike was a 2019.

So please, point out the lies specifically. Other than that, I just heard from Bud that you forgot to sweep out the tower and empty the trash can next to his desk.
"Mr. Disinfo"


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8/14/2019 11:07am
aeffertz wrote:
You're out of your mind! Let me remind you what you said when only a few posters commented on the video... [quote]Chaparral does not sell Husqvarna’s...
You're out of your mind! Let me remind you what you said when only a few posters commented on the video...

Chaparral does not sell Husqvarna’s so how did you buy a bike they don’t sell. And Yamaha has not done the 450 intro yet. You have pissed a lot of the magazines making them angry trying to one up them instead of playing by industry practice. Seems like you have a hidden agenda ML.
What else in this shootout is also not true. You don’t have credibility with several mags their words not mine. And I have no credibility with anybody and that’s ok but your burning bridges you might one day need to cross. Your only hurting yourself.


All he did was go out, buy some bikes and talk about them. Then you and a couple others come in and start spewing BS about how he's burning bridges, lying, being deceitful, taking shots at magazines, doesn't have the right to do this, etc. It's absolute madness how you are trying to tear him down and accuse him of doing shit he didn't do.

F.O.H.
I feel like I am in the twilight zone here. I agree with everything you said. I posted the link to the video because I thought it was a great video. I have watched all ML's reviews over the past several years and he does a great job. Others do a great job as well, but going to the lengths ML has by purchasing the bikes is a refreshing take, IMO.

So what, he said he got the bikes from Chaparrel and the Husqy was actually purchase from somewhere else. Oh shit, there was a math error in the video..... I just don't see those as deception and ML has clarified.

I will say that grip donut mod was completely uncalled for, you should be ashamed ML........HAHAHA!

The negativity from a handful of users just baffles me. Maybe because I am not part of this "clique" being thrown about.
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8/14/2019 11:08am
Michael i have an important question !

All vitals are wondering the same...Now that you’re doing your own thing, are you gonna be able to make an A-KIT suspension shootout ?

That would be amazing ! Think about all the guys wondering if they should go with Cone Valve or Ohlins or Kayaba and so on.

Thx
5
Mr. Info
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8/14/2019 11:41am Edited Date/Time 8/14/2019 11:45am
☠️
13
CivBars
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8/14/2019 11:54am
Watching this now. Found a new 19 today that's tempting me. Is the 20 much different from the 19?

3
Moto520
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Schaumburg, IL, USA
8/14/2019 12:06pm
great review. I really like this new style of shootout. please keep up the good work.
3
RCMXracing
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N., TX, USA
8/14/2019 12:17pm
Here’s a thought: Let’s talk about bikes, start a new thread for drama and gossip.
Plenty of candidates to start a fresh post about politics in the industry regarding testing and media.
I’m here for the Moto.
1
Moto520
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8/14/2019 12:22pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Here’s a thought: Let’s talk about bikes, start a new thread for drama and gossip. Plenty of candidates to start a fresh post about politics in...
Here’s a thought: Let’s talk about bikes, start a new thread for drama and gossip.
Plenty of candidates to start a fresh post about politics in the industry regarding testing and media.
I’m here for the Moto.
yes....jesus fuck! MOTOCROSS BIKES. The rest is super gay guys...….
5
2
loftyair
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riverside, CA, USA
8/14/2019 12:40pm
Heres another thing. Unfortunately, exact bikes sitting next to each other at a dealer, are not exact. A lemon, and a lime, sitting there together. Which one did you test? Is the 'good' one still at dealer? I think its awesome what you did Mike. Also, just a tire or bar bend, correct oil and height in forks, new shock oil, correctly lubed chassis, also makes potentially huge differences.
2
Meister
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Canton, OH, USA
8/14/2019 12:49pm
I have yet to watch, but I'm not gonna buy a 20.

However, I am thoroughly impressed that you (ML) pissed off the mags. F'em!

Mr. Info seems like a crybaby bitch who probably works at a mag company. Shit or get off the pot. Having to wait for mags to gather their bearings blows. The 20s are hitting the showroom obviously. I don't want a review in December.
9
yz133rider
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8/14/2019 1:21pm Edited Date/Time 8/14/2019 1:22pm
Ml512-

Maybe after the shootout pit 1 250 2 stroke against the 250 shootout winner. A mini shootout. Lap times, weight, dyno, comparisons. Would be a huge start. And please put jeff on the bikes back to back too!!

Theyre legal in 250 class for amateurs and lets face it...they get smoked in 450s and aren't relevant in that class anymore. But in the 250 class they are still a legitamate choice!!
4
VetMX.com
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8/14/2019 2:41pm
Mr. Info wrote:
Chaparral does not sell Husqvarna’s so how did you buy a bike they don’t sell. And Yamaha has not done the 450 intro yet. You have...
Chaparral does not sell Husqvarna’s so how did you buy a bike they don’t sell. And Yamaha has not done the 450 intro yet. You have pissed a lot of the magazines making them angry trying to one up them instead of playing by industry practice. Seems like you have a hidden agenda ML.
What else in this shootout is also not true. You don’t have credibility with several mags their words not mine. And I have no credibility with anybody and that’s ok but your burning bridges you might one day need to cross. Your only hurting yourself.
ML,
Flak is always heaviest when you are over the target. You are doing big things that no one has done before in this industry.
Was I sad to hear your review on the Suzuki? Of course but you were fair and the production and everything about the video and shootout was top notch. The fact that you stepped up and actually bought the bikes speaks volume about your commitment. For that, the rest can shut up and go sit down.

I think some people are going to stop testing bikes now because you are a tough act to follow!
10

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