2020 450 Shootouts

Johnny Depp
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6438
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Buda, TX US
8/13/2019 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 3:25pm
Paul333 wrote:
I understand the hostility towards MXA testing over the years a lot more after reading the thread. A Vital clique has decided they are the worlds...
I understand the hostility towards MXA testing over the years a lot more after reading the thread.

A Vital clique has decided they are the worlds greatest test riders. Most with zero to maybe a year or so doing reviews. They used Vital as a springboard to go out on their own. That hasn't panned out yet so they return to Vital. MXA having 50 years of bike testing credibility seems to bother them. Made worse because MXA won't kiss the ring of this clique. Good for them.

Buying the bikes yourself verses simply taking a loaner from the bike manufacturers PR departments somehow gives anyone "More Credibility"?

In my opinion test riding takes years of experience. At least before I pay any attention to your opinion. Why are you any more enlightened than me? Because you had Vital as a springboard? Because your friends shill for you on Vital? Nope

Test, ride, learn, keep humble. If you do a good job the credibility will come.
I’d call you an MXA employee, but there aren’t enough typos or basic grammar mistakes. Anyways, Jody called and said he needs his shoes shined, so...
I’d call you an MXA employee, but there aren’t enough typos or basic grammar mistakes.

Anyways, Jody called and said he needs his shoes shined, so go get your shinebox.
If you want to see some typos don't read the KTM 300 XC report on the Home page. I picked up about 7. And that is not dissing Vital, I'm just sick of people acting like only MXA makes them. I give zero f*cks about them anyway.

I'm sure now you will start lurking in all my posts trolling me again.

MXA is good media, as is Dirt Bike, Dirt Bike Test, and many other sites. I used to enjoy Enduro 360 too, and there are lots of forums where there is lots of good info. Endless YouTube channels from all over the world. It's a different world today.
1
1
Paul333
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Virginia Beach, VA US
8/13/2019 3:21pm
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



1
31
8/13/2019 3:31pm
ML512, are the riders in the review getting sponsored for gear? Any plans to “review” gear?

I buy a bike once every 4 years, new pants jersey gloves are much more frequent.
1
holyroller1
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8/13/2019 3:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 4:35pm
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



Hey man. I don't know you and I am sure you don't know me as I am less than a nobody in the world of dirt bike riding. Hell, I have never entered a single race in my life, mx, enduro anything. I grew up riding with friends because we loved to ride and it was the most fun we could have without touching other peoples wet parts, if you get my drift.

The way you mock someone who is doing something different, something that people seem to dig, is nuts. I really don't get this statement.

"It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way." - Are you really saying this dirt bike review thing is like any of those careers with regard to the mortality of those affected??

There have been a lot of famous and not so famous people who have revolutionized fields and in turn done pretty damn well for themselves. It seems you don't like this kind of thing. They decided they were worth something and gave it their all. You may have heard of some of them, or not, I will just throw some bones out there for you on the types of people I am thinking of.... Bill Gates, Nate Saint, Jobs, so many others....

Clique, well just so you know I am not part of any clique and didn't post this to rub it in the faces of the "dinosaurs." I am a 47 YO IT professional that rides motorcycles/dirt bikes and overall has a love for the sport.
9

The Shop

8/13/2019 3:59pm
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



Dude, you're quite possibly the dumbest poster I've ever encountered on Vital. I mean seriously...when you out do me, you need some electro-shock therapy and some intense medical intervention.
13
ML512
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Wildomar, CA US
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8/13/2019 4:03pm
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



Paul, just wanted to ask one thing based off this post and your other one...you do know that I don’t work for Vital anymore and haven’t returned to the staff either. I have nothing to do with any content posted on the homepage here.
7
aaryn #234
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South Australia AU
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8/13/2019 4:48pm
ML, How about taking average type guys and do a three day shootout? Take six guys that are B/C unsponsored riders so it not a pro's...


ML, How about taking average type guys and do a three day shootout? Take six guys that are B/C unsponsored riders so it not a pro's perspective on the bikes. Those riders are the meat of the sales of MX bikes and it might throw a different twist on which bike the average rider likes. Maybe even put a couple of woods/desert riders in there too. But they all should be unsponsored.
ML512 wrote:
I'll be adding more riders on the next one, we had a short time to put this one together. I had one B level amateur and...
I'll be adding more riders on the next one, we had a short time to put this one together. I had one B level amateur and one Novice level vet rider in the group. Only one rider in this group is sponsored with some level of bike support...that bike still didn't do well in his rankings.
Fly me over from Aus, happy to fill the 40+ C grade V spot for you Cheerful
1
PJRAUS
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AU
8/13/2019 4:59pm
I enjoyed the test video and found it both informative and surprising..
Was surprised at the low placing of the ktm...
Not sure if I ever want another 450...its cool having one though..kinda like having a v8 tucked away in the garage...
But I am curious as to how the yamaha trumped the ktm.....the thing I hate about myv17 yz450 is the weight...I feel it everywhere...and the new ones arent much lighter...
Sure would love to try both the KTM and the new Yam , back to back...and see if either re spark an interest in 450's for me..
MPJC
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CA
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8/13/2019 5:04pm
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



Should airline pilots, nuclear engineers, and brain surgeon positions be filled the way MXA test rider positions are filled? Those professions have clear professional standards and metrics for measuring them, motocross test riding does not. Given that, I have a hard time seeing how Michael Lindsey or Vital MX would have standards that are wildly different for filling these positions. There are, of course, many "random guy on the internet" videos on YouTube. There's a reason we're not discussing them. I'm very out of the loop and certainly not in with any clique so this is just an opinion from a guy who likes to ride and reads/watches as many moto sources as I can. I like MXA and have for a long time, but I think that what ML is doing is great too.
6
yak651
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Appleton, WI US
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8/13/2019 6:00pm
Michael, if you want to load up a trailer of bikes and bring to WI I think we can line you up with tracks and riders to provide additional test input, just saying!!!
5
1
aeffertz
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Eau Claire, WI US
8/13/2019 6:13pm
yak651 wrote:
Michael, if you want to load up a trailer of bikes and bring to WI I think we can line you up with tracks and riders...
Michael, if you want to load up a trailer of bikes and bring to WI I think we can line you up with tracks and riders to provide additional test input, just saying!!!
I got over 200 hours of sick leave built up, where do I sign?
4
kkawboy14
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8/13/2019 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 6:27pm
Everything in this shoot out I could have told you without throwing a leg over 3 of those bikes (and I’ve never been a test rider):

1) Suzuki: it’s still old and heavy
2) Kawasaki: needs fork springs and a pipe to be a pure mx bike
3) Honda’s: hard to set up, but flickable around a track

What I did learn that I couldn’t guess:

4) KTM: it’s bit off, for a mx track
5) Husky & Yamaha: aimed strictly to pass for a Mx bike fresh out of the box.

the fresh out of the box test means nothing to me or for I’m gonna guess 95% of the people that buy a mx bike.

I’ll be interested in a “we spent $1000 or $2000 in hop ups/after market stuff on these bikes, here is who won that challenge!”
5
8
zehn
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Anchorage, AK US
8/13/2019 6:31pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Everything in this shoot out I could have told you without throwing a leg over 3 of those bikes (and I’ve never been a test rider)...
Everything in this shoot out I could have told you without throwing a leg over 3 of those bikes (and I’ve never been a test rider):

1) Suzuki: it’s still old and heavy
2) Kawasaki: needs fork springs and a pipe to be a pure mx bike
3) Honda’s: hard to set up, but flickable around a track

What I did learn that I couldn’t guess:

4) KTM: it’s bit off, for a mx track
5) Husky & Yamaha: aimed strictly to pass for a Mx bike fresh out of the box.

the fresh out of the box test means nothing to me or for I’m gonna guess 95% of the people that buy a mx bike.

I’ll be interested in a “we spent $1000 or $2000 in hop ups/after market stuff on these bikes, here is who won that challenge!”
much ty
wildbill
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Christmas Valley, OR US
8/13/2019 6:39pm
Mr. Info wrote:
Let’s leave it here. I didn’t lie, no miss information. Only agenda is telling the truth by anybody to the public is a reflection on their...
Let’s leave it here. I didn’t lie, no miss information. Only agenda is telling the truth by anybody to the public is a reflection on their work and credibility that’s it. If you tell the truth from the beginning you don’t need to go back and change your story. I only saw the introduction but knew the behind the scenes because of it.
I don’t buy my bike because of any magazine or pod test. I ride each one first because I ask friends to ride their bike. Last post on this but knowing the Industry there will be others for other reasons. Just be honest and tell the truth.
Oh just so you know I am not an employee of Glen Helen but I do work for them from time to time. I act as current President of the SoCal OTMX Club and have a regular job outside the industry and have called out others for misunderstandings. Is it that hard to just tell the truth. That’s all everyone asks I think. No one can just lie or misrepresent it’s not fair to anyone.
Have a great week. And God Bless you all.
Fucking weirdo.
5
smrscott
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Tustin, CA US
8/13/2019 6:43pm
I wonder if Chap gave ML a good deal on the bikes since he has a promo deal with them already? Maybe Chap loaned or sponsored him with the $ to buy the bikes? I wish I had enough coin to purchased every bike in the fleet. Even at cost, 6 bikes is probably run $48K or more, then add tax, $3840 - plus registration, well over 50K
Chap gets some solid PR, ML gets some serious traffic and hopefully consumers get untainted information - only time will tell. Will these bikes be around all year or some sold soon to recoup $ outlay? If he received smoking deals, there is a chance he might end up in the black or very close, maybe if sales tax and registration was collected.

Regardless, I like the concept, kind of like consumer reports, they purchase everything retail then report. Who knows, this could be the next transformation in the industry. Kudos for ML trying something new and beating everyone to the stating line by possibly months.
1
kkawboy14
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8/13/2019 6:51pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 6:54pm
smrscott wrote:
I wonder if Chap gave ML a good deal on the bikes since he has a promo deal with them already? Maybe Chap loaned or sponsored...
I wonder if Chap gave ML a good deal on the bikes since he has a promo deal with them already? Maybe Chap loaned or sponsored him with the $ to buy the bikes? I wish I had enough coin to purchased every bike in the fleet. Even at cost, 6 bikes is probably run $48K or more, then add tax, $3840 - plus registration, well over 50K
Chap gets some solid PR, ML gets some serious traffic and hopefully consumers get untainted information - only time will tell. Will these bikes be around all year or some sold soon to recoup $ outlay? If he received smoking deals, there is a chance he might end up in the black or very close, maybe if sales tax and registration was collected.

Regardless, I like the concept, kind of like consumer reports, they purchase everything retail then report. Who knows, this could be the next transformation in the industry. Kudos for ML trying something new and beating everyone to the stating line by possibly months.
That’s less than the purchase of a new truck.
Plus he can sell them when it’s all over.
Seems like people think he has to throw them in the dumpster when it’s all over and lose the whole amount!


I’m impressed with the plan, it’s good to see a young guy thinking and pushing the industry in ways it hasn’t been pushed!
2
smrscott
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8/13/2019 6:57pm
That is why I said if he got a deal - maybe he can flip them and still be in the black - I think he thought out of the box and so far its a win win, especially if Chap sold him bikes at cost or however it worked out on paper, Not a new concept, just a new one adapted to the motorcycle media industry.
kkawboy14
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8/13/2019 6:58pm
Exactly!

I can tell you all a kx Needs is a pipe and fork springs but if there is something else I would love to know it!
1
1
kkawboy14
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8/13/2019 7:01pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 7:01pm
smrscott wrote:
That is why I said if he got a deal - maybe he can flip them and still be in the black - I think he...
That is why I said if he got a deal - maybe he can flip them and still be in the black - I think he thought out of the box and so far its a win win, especially if Chap sold him bikes at cost or however it worked out on paper, Not a new concept, just a new one adapted to the motorcycle media industry.
Spending money, in the moto industry is definitely a unheard of foreign new concept! 😂
1
Brent
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8/13/2019 7:19pm Edited Date/Time 8/13/2019 7:24pm
Paul333 wrote:
LOL, Thank you for proving my point. History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL. It’s far better...
LOL,

Thank you for proving my point.

History, Training, Skill, Knowledge, Credibility, System, Experience, ETC means nothing. Depending on it is a “Fallacy”...LOL.

It’s far better to just decide you are something on the internet. I sure hope my Airline Pilot, Nuclear Engineer, Brain Surgeon, and a thousand other vital professions are filled this way..

Again, the clique replies prove that if a current bike testing organization acknowledge the Vital “Test Rider” clique they are instantly awesome and highly recommended. Except that you aren’t personally wealthy and buy your own test bikes so Unfortunately you are still potentially tainted - Sorry.

Ignore the clique and you basically suck. Made worse if you have a very high credibility level. Now you really suck.

LOL, it’s laughable

No amount of buddy shill posting, probably some troll burner account posting, whatever is going to wave a magic wand and instantly give anyone test rider credibility. Sorry, I didn’t mean to bust the Twitter generations bubble. Please don’t be triggered.



I've read your last post about six times, and I just can't figure out what you are trying to say.

I think you are saying that on-line reviewers are not qualified to test motorcycles and report their results because they happen to post on Vital MX? That seems like a thin argument to me.

Remember,Jody Wiesel, the person who has been testing dirt bikes far longer than anyone currently, has a masters degree in Gerontology -tell me how that qualifies him to be the ultimate authority on which dirt bike you should buy?

Reviews of anything are all subjective anyway, No one is telling you who to believe.
10
RbR
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8/13/2019 8:34pm
Great Job Michael !!
1
fullfloater
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8/13/2019 9:37pm
PJRAUS wrote:
I enjoyed the test video and found it both informative and surprising.. Was surprised at the low placing of the ktm... Not sure if I ever...
I enjoyed the test video and found it both informative and surprising..
Was surprised at the low placing of the ktm...
Not sure if I ever want another 450...its cool having one though..kinda like having a v8 tucked away in the garage...
But I am curious as to how the yamaha trumped the ktm.....the thing I hate about myv17 yz450 is the weight...I feel it everywhere...and the new ones arent much lighter...
Sure would love to try both the KTM and the new Yam , back to back...and see if either re spark an interest in 450's for me..
I’m interested in this too. I went from Yamaha to KTM and was immediately happy with the chassis and weight. Does the Yamaha feel lighter than the KTM these days or is it KTMs suspension and power delivery dropping it down the list?
Bidirella
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8/13/2019 10:08pm
I’m interested in this too. I went from Yamaha to KTM and was immediately happy with the chassis and weight. Does the Yamaha feel lighter than...
I’m interested in this too. I went from Yamaha to KTM and was immediately happy with the chassis and weight. Does the Yamaha feel lighter than the KTM these days or is it KTMs suspension and power delivery dropping it down the list?
For me looks like Dropping down because of the suspensoin feel/delivery. They also said a comment with the Yamaha that its not the lightes bike in the class. I never believe they have a lighter feel then a Ktm/Husky, the KG/lbs is to much off a difference for that.

When KTM/Husky going back to spring forks, they will be in run for the win again. Most people hate airforks those days, included me haha. First thing i change when i got a bike with airforks
2
Big E
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Orange, CA US
8/13/2019 10:26pm
ML512 wrote:
The Husqvarna was purchase from AEO Powersports in Murrieta, big thanks to Jeremy over there for helping me out even though I have a deal with...
The Husqvarna was purchase from AEO Powersports in Murrieta, big thanks to Jeremy over there for helping me out even though I have a deal with Chaparral.

And yes, I did piss off some magazines. I got calls about it all week from OEMs who said that one of them had threatened them over my Shootout.

As for the Yamaha, the mags can wait because they’re waiting on their loaner bikes from the OEM. Which means they have to sign a NDA when they test them. Mine was privately acquired so I didn’t have to sign a NDA.
What is a magazine?
5
Rotaholic
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8/14/2019 1:05am
Fantastic ML512, love your work and fresh thinking! I will buy the suzuki cause I like suzukis.

Would be cool to see what you could do for the money, obviously the suzuki will be dirt cheap and the KTM most expensive, invest that spare change in mods and throw it back in the mix as a shootout later down the track.
8/14/2019 1:39am
Amazing Job Michael !

Really really liked your work here and if i can add some wishes, can you bring the 350 for the 250 shootout ?

Would be nice to see how they compare to the rest of the bikes since everybody say a 350 is a 250 on steroids.

Also, i would love to see you create a website such as Keefer because the reading is much much better than the video and you can describe the feeling of the bike more in depth IMO.

Thx
2
Dust601
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8/14/2019 3:32am
Big E wrote:
What is a magazine?
A rapidly dying product of the past that won’t be around much longer. For some reason nostalgic people like to waste money on them so they can read about things that happened a month ago. Sadly for them print media is dying so quickly those people alone aren’t going to be able to save it.
2
1reed2rome
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Hugoton, KS US
8/14/2019 3:49am
seventeen wrote:
I feel that the test results are fair and accurate. Will I buy blue? Yes...but I ride blue. Would I buy green if it had won...
I feel that the test results are fair and accurate. Will I buy blue? Yes...but I ride blue. Would I buy green if it had won? No...I ride blue...
I am sure others here feel the same...
Totally understand where you’re coming from. But for a guy who hasn’t already picked what bike they want or is in the fence about a couple bikes this is cool info to help make a decision. I’d say more based on what your looking for out of a bike not just what brand wins.
RCMXracing
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8/14/2019 6:41am Edited Date/Time 8/14/2019 6:42am
ML, regarding the KTM/Hus stiffer feeling chassis over the previous generation I was surprised you didn’t mention the frame needing a 5+ hr break in period. Please comment.

As an owner of a ‘16 KTM 450 and now a 19.5 I was very happy with what KTM did with the frame change. The older gen bike was wallowy under braking and straight line acceleration in rollers and vague in corners compared to the new one which tracks straight and corners accurately. I will say when it was new it did have a very harsh feel. It took about 6 hours before it felt good. It will never feel as compliant as the older gen but I much prefer the accuracy.

I really hope KTM doesn’t succumb to pressure and go back to that softer frame! If they do I’ll look at switching to Honda in the future. *shrug*

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