Barcia trolling us about his forks: Air or Spring

spimx wrote:

The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top...

The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top out. Weight is a performance factor and so is tuning and adjustability. If weight and cost were the only reason to run air forks that technology would not have so many championships

Patrick Potato wrote:

Actually that’s not correct. When the fork tops out it equalizes pressure between the positive and negative chambers. Unfortunately as the fork heats up this pressure...

Actually that’s not correct. When the fork tops out it equalizes pressure between the positive and negative chambers. Unfortunately as the fork heats up this pressure does climb. In my experience the best approach is to check the pressure after riding a short practice moto and then again in the middle of your ride day, if you can. Once it’s up to operating temperature, and assuming ambient temperatures are fairly stable you should be in good shape. It’s also good practice to open the bleeders at least once a day on air or spring forks.

Jeff_Brines wrote:

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though...

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though they will always be different. There is more to it than just the forces curve of an air spring (which can be manipulated as others have suggested).

If you want to learn a lot about the technology and have an open mind, I suggest you check this out...

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/TECH-TALK-Air-Shocks-Versus-Coil-Shoc…

Ultimately rider preference is what this is going to come down to, especially as WP refines a few things (like the size of the negative chamber).

To answer some questions above...

*Q: How do you mitigate the changes to the spring's feel due to heat? A: At the top level, you fill the spring with nitrogen and make sure the spring (both sides) is of adequate volume where changes in temperature are less likely to be felt on the track. You can mitigate this down to miniscule changes that the rider will not feel, or at least will feel no more than the same changes in a coil environment (where heat still changes the secondary spring).

*Q: Will air springs always feel harsher? No. They will feel different. Through playing with the volume of the negative spring chamber you can get an air spring to be incredibly linear for much of the travel yet still have a lot of ramp up at the end. Remember, coil springs also use air as a bottom out preventer (mostly). Many air springs can benefit from lowering oil height and relying on the natural progressiveness of the spring late in the fork's travel (relying less on outer oil levels for ramp). This will be especially true if we add more negative volume to the fork (meaning you run higher pressure but it requires less force to go through the early part of its traveL).

Q: Don't manufacturers do this for cost only? Maybe a tiny bit. But coil springs are not expensive for a company to get their hands on. Probably $10 or less. The seals and machining around an air spring isn't pennies. Ultimately, I'd bet its more of a wash. The big benefit to air is it allows the rider to find the right spring rate without dropping hundreds on new springs, changing them out, and figuring out what works. I'd argue even the current gen of WP air springs (which I do believe need a bit of work - talking 2020 on back), setup at the right pressure is better than a coil spring at the wrong rate. I'd bet the wrong rate is a common problem for most non-VitalMX nerds.

Ultimately I'd like to see an air spring that brings forth a lot of the mountain bike technology (and then some). Specifically the ability to adjust the volume of the positive and negative chamber; obviously giving the rider a generous negative chamber to start.

There will always be coil sprung loyalists, but just like in mountain biking, you'll see riders win at the top with an air spring so long as it employees all the technology above and the rider/tuner is given sufficient time to dial it in.

theycallmeebryan wrote:

Showa already tried releasing a fork with adjustable air chambers.... the Showa TAC fork. It confused the hell out of the general consumer and it wasn't...

Showa already tried releasing a fork with adjustable air chambers.... the Showa TAC fork. It confused the hell out of the general consumer and it wasn't well received. WP's "automatic" balancing approach works so well from a consumer standpoint because there's only 1 "chamber" to fill and the fork handles the rest, as opposed to the 3 separate chambers with the Showa TAC. The volume and pressure ratio of main chamber to balance chamber is always maintained so the fork action is consistent no matter what pressure you decide to run.

theycallmeebryan wrote:

Showa already tried releasing a fork with adjustable air chambers.... the Showa TAC fork. It confused the hell out of the general consumer and it wasn't...

Showa already tried releasing a fork with adjustable air chambers.... the Showa TAC fork. It confused the hell out of the general consumer and it wasn't well received. WP's "automatic" balancing approach works so well from a consumer standpoint because there's only 1 "chamber" to fill and the fork handles the rest, as opposed to the 3 separate chambers with the Showa TAC. The volume and pressure ratio of main chamber to balance chamber is always maintained so the fork action is consistent no matter what pressure you decide to run.

Jeff_Brines wrote:

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though...

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though they will always be different. There is more to it than just the forces curve of an air spring (which can be manipulated as others have suggested).

If you want to learn a lot about the technology and have an open mind, I suggest you check this out...

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/TECH-TALK-Air-Shocks-Versus-Coil-Shoc…

Ultimately rider preference is what this is going to come down to, especially as WP refines a few things (like the size of the negative chamber).

To answer some questions above...

*Q: How do you mitigate the changes to the spring's feel due to heat? A: At the top level, you fill the spring with nitrogen and make sure the spring (both sides) is of adequate volume where changes in temperature are less likely to be felt on the track. You can mitigate this down to miniscule changes that the rider will not feel, or at least will feel no more than the same changes in a coil environment (where heat still changes the secondary spring).

*Q: Will air springs always feel harsher? No. They will feel different. Through playing with the volume of the negative spring chamber you can get an air spring to be incredibly linear for much of the travel yet still have a lot of ramp up at the end. Remember, coil springs also use air as a bottom out preventer (mostly). Many air springs can benefit from lowering oil height and relying on the natural progressiveness of the spring late in the fork's travel (relying less on outer oil levels for ramp). This will be especially true if we add more negative volume to the fork (meaning you run higher pressure but it requires less force to go through the early part of its traveL).

Q: Don't manufacturers do this for cost only? Maybe a tiny bit. But coil springs are not expensive for a company to get their hands on. Probably $10 or less. The seals and machining around an air spring isn't pennies. Ultimately, I'd bet its more of a wash. The big benefit to air is it allows the rider to find the right spring rate without dropping hundreds on new springs, changing them out, and figuring out what works. I'd argue even the current gen of WP air springs (which I do believe need a bit of work - talking 2020 on back), setup at the right pressure is better than a coil spring at the wrong rate. I'd bet the wrong rate is a common problem for most non-VitalMX nerds.

Ultimately I'd like to see an air spring that brings forth a lot of the mountain bike technology (and then some). Specifically the ability to adjust the volume of the positive and negative chamber; obviously giving the rider a generous negative chamber to start.

There will always be coil sprung loyalists, but just like in mountain biking, you'll see riders win at the top with an air spring so long as it employees all the technology above and the rider/tuner is given sufficient time to dial it in.

MDana87 wrote:

Also coming from MTB, understanding and being capable of manipulating the level of adjustment available with the current gen air suspension in that world, I'm 100%...

Also coming from MTB, understanding and being capable of manipulating the level of adjustment available with the current gen air suspension in that world, I'm 100% with you! I want adjustable/replaceable volume spacers like we have there. It's crazy to me they aren't a thing in MX given how important they are in making MTB suspension work properly.

Jeff_Brines wrote:

Something to remember here, you basically have volume spacers (on the positive side) in the form of oil levels. That said, I do agree a better...

Something to remember here, you basically have volume spacers (on the positive side) in the form of oil levels. That said, I do agree a better understanding of oil heights (or using volume spacers in the positive side) alongside what we are looking for out of the spring would be great because an air spring is *not* a coil spring thus oil heights should be adjusted.

If it seems like I'm focusing most of my "hopefulness" on the negative spring its because I am. This is the real area of evolution on the mountain bike side that equalized everything (no pun intended), I am yet to ride the 2021 AER but this was the big change; just not convinced they went far enough.

In a perfect world they'd go nuts with it, and then let us reduce the size of the chamber if the fork was ramping up too hard, not using all travel, or was too soft in the early part of its travel.

J-Mill wrote:

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget...

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget moving forward. Not because I “need them” but because I can’t get used to the vague feeling in corners with the AER and the ramping up of the air spring on OJ’s.

ML512 wrote:

Star racing is on air forks and has been since 2013.

cloud41 wrote:

Star racing isn’t running WP air forks...

ML512 wrote:

You generalized air forks when saying they’re junk, so I responded with a team that has had and continues to have success on air forks.

J-Mill wrote:

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget...

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget moving forward. Not because I “need them” but because I can’t get used to the vague feeling in corners with the AER and the ramping up of the air spring on OJ’s.

BobPA wrote:

Did you not read GuyB's post above?

J-Mill wrote:

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget...

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget moving forward. Not because I “need them” but because I can’t get used to the vague feeling in corners with the AER and the ramping up of the air spring on OJ’s.

BobPA wrote:

Did you not read GuyB's post above?

Zycki11 wrote:

He is using 52mm cone valve just like Marvin and Cooper.

J-Mill wrote:

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget...

He’s using spring forks. Who would’ve thought (sarcasm). I don’t know guys, I can’t get on with my AER forks. Lucky’s will be in the budget moving forward. Not because I “need them” but because I can’t get used to the vague feeling in corners with the AER and the ramping up of the air spring on OJ’s.

BobPA wrote:

Did you not read GuyB's post above?

Zycki11 wrote:

He is using 52mm cone valve just like Marvin and Cooper.

Jeff_Brines wrote:

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though...

Having come from decades of mountain bike racing, where suspension setup is incredibly important, I firmly believe air can be as good as a coil, though they will always be different. There is more to it than just the forces curve of an air spring (which can be manipulated as others have suggested).

If you want to learn a lot about the technology and have an open mind, I suggest you check this out...

https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/TECH-TALK-Air-Shocks-Versus-Coil-Shoc…

Ultimately rider preference is what this is going to come down to, especially as WP refines a few things (like the size of the negative chamber).

To answer some questions above...

*Q: How do you mitigate the changes to the spring's feel due to heat? A: At the top level, you fill the spring with nitrogen and make sure the spring (both sides) is of adequate volume where changes in temperature are less likely to be felt on the track. You can mitigate this down to miniscule changes that the rider will not feel, or at least will feel no more than the same changes in a coil environment (where heat still changes the secondary spring).

*Q: Will air springs always feel harsher? No. They will feel different. Through playing with the volume of the negative spring chamber you can get an air spring to be incredibly linear for much of the travel yet still have a lot of ramp up at the end. Remember, coil springs also use air as a bottom out preventer (mostly). Many air springs can benefit from lowering oil height and relying on the natural progressiveness of the spring late in the fork's travel (relying less on outer oil levels for ramp). This will be especially true if we add more negative volume to the fork (meaning you run higher pressure but it requires less force to go through the early part of its traveL).

Q: Don't manufacturers do this for cost only? Maybe a tiny bit. But coil springs are not expensive for a company to get their hands on. Probably $10 or less. The seals and machining around an air spring isn't pennies. Ultimately, I'd bet its more of a wash. The big benefit to air is it allows the rider to find the right spring rate without dropping hundreds on new springs, changing them out, and figuring out what works. I'd argue even the current gen of WP air springs (which I do believe need a bit of work - talking 2020 on back), setup at the right pressure is better than a coil spring at the wrong rate. I'd bet the wrong rate is a common problem for most non-VitalMX nerds.

Ultimately I'd like to see an air spring that brings forth a lot of the mountain bike technology (and then some). Specifically the ability to adjust the volume of the positive and negative chamber; obviously giving the rider a generous negative chamber to start.

There will always be coil sprung loyalists, but just like in mountain biking, you'll see riders win at the top with an air spring so long as it employees all the technology above and the rider/tuner is given sufficient time to dial it in.

BobPA wrote:

Did you not read GuyB's post above?

Zycki11 wrote:

He is using 52mm cone valve just like Marvin and Cooper.

BobPA wrote:

If you're so sure, what's the proof of what's inside?

Brent wrote:

I believe Barcia is riding on the 52 cone valve spring fork, at least they appear that way from the photos. Not that it matters, but...

I believe Barcia is riding on the 52 cone valve spring fork, at least they appear that way from the photos.

Not that it matters, but if he is on the air fork or a hybrid, they are probably significantly different than a production WP fork.

Those things are probably so stiff that a non expert racer might find them uncomfortable.

Skerby wrote:

Volume spacers make mtb fork worse most of the time. You need more spring/damping if you're bottoming without spacers, at least imo. Like the other guy...

Volume spacers make mtb fork worse most of the time. You need more spring/damping if you're bottoming without spacers, at least imo. Like the other guy said, oil height can have the same effect.

luke11 wrote:

Great post and agree with the plus points of air not having to spend money and time changing springs however, why do we only get one...

Great post and agree with the plus points of air not having to spend money and time changing springs however, why do we only get one air pressure setting in the manual for ‘average weight’ rider???
There should be a conversion chart between weight/ability/psi
Starting at stock setting and adjusting from there feels like a bit of a finger in the air when your new to air forks.

MDana87 wrote:

My understanding is that oil level in the AER air side is outside of the air spring chamber, unlike MTB volume spacers which reside within the...

My understanding is that oil level in the AER air side is outside of the air spring chamber, unlike MTB volume spacers which reside within the air spring chamber. I understand there is a smaller "external" chamber, which contains oil to lube bushings and can be vented by the bleed screw, but this chambers' impact on spring rate is relatively minimal. Let me know if I'm out to lunch on this, but this is how I understand it.

Brent wrote:

I believe Barcia is riding on the 52 cone valve spring fork, at least they appear that way from the photos. Not that it matters, but...

I believe Barcia is riding on the 52 cone valve spring fork, at least they appear that way from the photos.

Not that it matters, but if he is on the air fork or a hybrid, they are probably significantly different than a production WP fork.

Those things are probably so stiff that a non expert racer might find them uncomfortable.

JMX82 wrote:

You must have an x-ray vision if you can see from outside whether the frorks have steel or air spring... and I can assure that those...

You must have an x-ray vision if you can see from outside whether the frorks have steel or air spring... and I can assure that those forks have nothing in common with stock forks

Jeff_Brines wrote:

You have one part right, which is where the oil resides. However, the overall function of oil height in most mx forks is very similar to...

You have one part right, which is where the oil resides. However, the overall function of oil height in most mx forks is very similar to volume spacers (for mountain bikers).

Without getting into the weeds too much on volume differential between mtb and mx and seal differential (both play big factors here) oil height has a massive impact on spring rate later in the travel. How much of an impact depends on the fork model.

I'll hunt around for a forces curve with oil height as a variable.

cloud41 wrote:

Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...

Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.

LungButter wrote:

Is this is a similar situation to the Japanese manufacturers and aluminum frames?