2021 450 MX Shootout.......good listen

wr74
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wr74 9/25/2020 6:37am
9/25/2020 6:37am
Interesting the Honda finished behind the ktm/husky with the all new bike. In last years swap moto shootout, the Honda was ranked ahead of both of those bikes.

The new Honda reviews (not just swap moto, all the ones I’ve watched) keep saying it’s better than the last generation, but they certainly don’t sound convincing when they say it. It’s almost like they are scratching their heads as to the direction Honda has gone in, and are trying to convince themselves the Honda is improved.

I wonder if the Honda would have finished in front of the Suzuki had they included it? It’s hard to rate a bike highly if the ecu tune is as bad as it sounds.

Sleeter’s review of the Honda in the round table talking video was absolutely scathing, and not just the ecu tune. The chassis still sounds like it’s super harsh.
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Baton Rouge 9/25/2020 7:54am
9/25/2020 7:54am
yz133rider wrote:
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21...
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21.

Take a bike that didn’t win many shootouts in 19 and the only change Is a clutch in 2 years and now it wins?
From what i remenber in the different 2020 shootouts, the kawi was always close from winning but was held back by a very poor and old handlebar and a clutch that fried very rapidly.

As it is not the case anymore, the kawi has a shot at winning nowadays, it seems logic to me
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Kanewel433
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Kanewel433 9/25/2020 9:40am
9/25/2020 9:40am
cloud41 wrote:
An ecu remap is relatively inexpensive, and most people send their suspension off for springs/revalve. The Honda sounds like a hot unit.
Sorry I just can't get on board with this....after spending $10k on a brand new released bike from one of the premier manufacturers, the average joe should NOT need an ECU remap to get rid of the gurgle. This seems like a rather large oversight for Honda.
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MPJC
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MPJC 9/25/2020 9:53am
9/25/2020 9:53am
cloud41 wrote:
An ecu remap is relatively inexpensive, and most people send their suspension off for springs/revalve. The Honda sounds like a hot unit.
Kanewel433 wrote:
Sorry I just can't get on board with this....after spending $10k on a brand new released bike from one of the premier manufacturers, the average joe...
Sorry I just can't get on board with this....after spending $10k on a brand new released bike from one of the premier manufacturers, the average joe should NOT need an ECU remap to get rid of the gurgle. This seems like a rather large oversight for Honda.
Totally agree. There’s a difference between “I don’t like this mapping” where you’d prefer more or less aggressive for example and “the bike doesn’t run properly with this mapping”. I don’t mind having the mapping adjusted to my preference but I expect not to need a remap just so the bike doesn’t almost kill me when I give it throttle on the face of a jump.
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LKHill
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LKHill 9/25/2020 9:56am
9/25/2020 9:56am Edited Date/Time 9/25/2020 9:59am
Motofinne wrote:
Honda talk is interesting. I was hoping for something like KTM did in 16, a bike that takes it to the next level but it seems...
Honda talk is interesting. I was hoping for something like KTM did in 16, a bike that takes it to the next level but it seems like it fell flat.

But like the guys mention, the bike has potential!
So does the Suzuki...


An interesting video was posted comparing a 2010 CRF250R and a 2020 CRF250R. They came away saying the 2010 was the better bike being full mod vs. the stock 2020.
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Brent
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Brent 9/25/2020 10:17am
9/25/2020 10:17am
...a few weeks ago, I pulled my old 2005 Honda CRF 450 out of storage for one last nostalgia ride at Cahuilla before I sold it.

Keep in mind I have not ridden the thing since 2013 or so, but the first time I took it out on the track it felt so crude and hard to ride. and having to kick start this bike to start it? Fuuuuuuck that.

I have sure gotten used to EFI, electric start, Modern suspension, and Powerbands that I can change with a push button on the handlebar.

I guess my point is that all these 450 bikes have come so far in the 20 years since they were first sold, and the current bikes are so good that testers have to pick nits like handlebar stiffness and fork spring weights in order to tell which is the best bike.


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walleyeguy
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walleyeguy 9/25/2020 10:38am
9/25/2020 10:38am
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
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280driver
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280driver 9/25/2020 10:39am
9/25/2020 10:39am
yz133rider wrote:
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21...
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21.

Take a bike that didn’t win many shootouts in 19 and the only change Is a clutch in 2 years and now it wins?
I believe it won the majority in ‘19. Won several or was tied for 1st with the YZ last year. Not surprised. The bikes are all so good/advanced now that it’s hard to make huge improvements.
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LKHill
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LKHill 9/25/2020 11:04am
9/25/2020 11:04am
walleyeguy wrote:
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure...
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
There is a good reason for that. Race Tech only tunes the bike to 1 rider. Production bikes are tuned for every rider.
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 9/25/2020 11:16am
9/25/2020 11:16am
walleyeguy wrote:
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure...
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
LKHill wrote:
There is a good reason for that. Race Tech only tunes the bike to 1 rider. Production bikes are tuned for every rider.
cost $$$$ as well
walleyeguy
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walleyeguy 9/25/2020 11:30am
9/25/2020 11:30am
walleyeguy wrote:
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure...
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
LKHill wrote:
There is a good reason for that. Race Tech only tunes the bike to 1 rider. Production bikes are tuned for every rider.
I knew someone would say it but NO, that's not it. RaceTech or any other of the big suspension guys can make a fork and shock that works better PERIOD! Except maybe Yamaha again.
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walleyeguy
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walleyeguy 9/25/2020 11:33am
9/25/2020 11:33am
walleyeguy wrote:
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure...
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
LKHill wrote:
There is a good reason for that. Race Tech only tunes the bike to 1 rider. Production bikes are tuned for every rider.
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
cost $$$$ as well
Doubt that really too. They all put a ton of money into R&D. They should be able to make better suspension.
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LKHill
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LKHill 9/25/2020 11:43am
9/25/2020 11:43am Edited Date/Time 9/25/2020 3:00pm
walleyeguy wrote:
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure...
It amazes me that nobody can come up with suspension that is as good as say...Race Tech. Besides maybe Yamaha of course. Why can't they figure out what Race Tech (or any other suspension company) does and just do that? Most of them finally figured out what FMF, Pro Circuit, etc. did and produced a pipe that was good stock.
LKHill wrote:
There is a good reason for that. Race Tech only tunes the bike to 1 rider. Production bikes are tuned for every rider.
walleyeguy wrote:
I knew someone would say it but NO, that's not it. RaceTech or any other of the big suspension guys can make a fork and shock...
I knew someone would say it but NO, that's not it. RaceTech or any other of the big suspension guys can make a fork and shock that works better PERIOD! Except maybe Yamaha again.
WTH are you talking about. I never said they couldn't. What I said is they have a target of one. Do not put words in my mouth so you can pick a fight.
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sf702/410
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sf702/410 9/25/2020 1:22pm
9/25/2020 1:22pm
I have about 4 hrs on my 21 yz and documented my satisfaction almost word for word with the middle guy, last week on here. I moved and rotated the bars and just this week bumped up the fork oil 15 cc, but at 285 in gear and 6'4.5 it's got the best suspension I've ever ridden. The fork is great and I don't even plan to respring at this point, or move clickers.
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inthebadboycorner 9/25/2020 1:57pm
9/25/2020 1:57pm
Still to these days I don't understand how these companies can spend millions, yet before final production can't take a pre pro bike to a local track and have half a dozen joe blows ride it.
Listen to them comment, maybe stiffer kx fork springs would have picked up.
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Ted722
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Ted722 9/25/2020 2:16pm
9/25/2020 2:16pm
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over the last few years, while also giving kudos to a modified RMZ-450 he rode earlier in the year.

With that said, there should be a $200 budget for minor changes for review riders that need it. A handlebar or fork springs should not have been mentioned as much as it was.
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yz133rider
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yz133rider 9/25/2020 2:26pm
9/25/2020 2:26pm
Ted722 wrote:
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over...
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over the last few years, while also giving kudos to a modified RMZ-450 he rode earlier in the year.

With that said, there should be a $200 budget for minor changes for review riders that need it. A handlebar or fork springs should not have been mentioned as much as it was.
I agree with the thought but can see how that could get very very time consuming and complicated for all the testers on the different bikes.
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Question
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Question 9/25/2020 2:27pm
9/25/2020 2:27pm
inthebadboycorner wrote:
Still to these days I don't understand how these companies can spend millions, yet before final production can't take a pre pro bike to a local...
Still to these days I don't understand how these companies can spend millions, yet before final production can't take a pre pro bike to a local track and have half a dozen joe blows ride it.
Listen to them comment, maybe stiffer kx fork springs would have picked up.
Top down approach.

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LKHill
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LKHill 9/25/2020 3:03pm
9/25/2020 3:03pm
Ted722 wrote:
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over...
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over the last few years, while also giving kudos to a modified RMZ-450 he rode earlier in the year.

With that said, there should be a $200 budget for minor changes for review riders that need it. A handlebar or fork springs should not have been mentioned as much as it was.
I think it worked out ok. Stock Kawasaki wins. With fork springs Kawasaki wins.
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bh84
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bh84 9/25/2020 3:03pm
9/25/2020 3:03pm
MPJC wrote:
Totally agree. There’s a difference between “I don’t like this mapping” where you’d prefer more or less aggressive for example and “the bike doesn’t run properly...
Totally agree. There’s a difference between “I don’t like this mapping” where you’d prefer more or less aggressive for example and “the bike doesn’t run properly with this mapping”. I don’t mind having the mapping adjusted to my preference but I expect not to need a remap just so the bike doesn’t almost kill me when I give it throttle on the face of a jump.
I spent a year when the 2014 YFZ450R came out trying to get the mapping right with a Power commander because we didn't have the ability to reflash it. Ended up dropping $800 on a Vortex ECU just to be able to ride it withouit any bottom end gurgle. Friggin pain in the ass, serves me right for racing quads.
Dirty Points 9/25/2020 3:27pm
9/25/2020 3:27pm Edited Date/Time 9/25/2020 3:28pm
Ted722 wrote:
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over...
Foster's been one of my favorite ride review guys over the years. Thought it was great that he was super happy riding the Yamaha stock over the last few years, while also giving kudos to a modified RMZ-450 he rode earlier in the year.

With that said, there should be a $200 budget for minor changes for review riders that need it. A handlebar or fork springs should not have been mentioned as much as it was.
It just shows that all the bikes are good enough in the major areas -- motor, handling, suspension, comfort -- that minor ergonomic/setup preferences are deciding factors. Don't even need to make those changes and re-judge, since we are already splitting hairs.
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quadzrulebro 9/26/2020 4:27am
9/26/2020 4:27am
Jon Bingham wrote:
I know after I drop 10 gs first thing I want to do is spend another $ 1200
sandtrack315 wrote:
I agree, but a dealer could reflash the ECU (hopefully for free) and swap springs for 50-60 bucks.
First off, there is no way a dealer could swap out springs for $60. The springs themselves are more expensive than that. Second, very few dealerships have the experience or expertise to reflash an ECU. Although I’ve never had one done, I’m confident that it costs more than $60 to send an ECU out for a reflash.
yz25
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yz25 9/26/2020 4:58am
9/26/2020 4:58am
Great to see what bike shootouts have become... not the manufacturer influence driven Like years ago.. Customers have a good idea now what to expect when dropping $10k-12k.
As for the Honda. Almost like the build up was to big it would make it hard to deliver. Absolutely love my 2020. I’m sure the guys over at Honda with have the bugs cleaned out for next year.
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sandtrack315 9/26/2020 5:12am
9/26/2020 5:12am
quadzrulebro wrote:
First off, there is no way a dealer could swap out springs for $60. The springs themselves are more expensive than that. Second, very few dealerships...
First off, there is no way a dealer could swap out springs for $60. The springs themselves are more expensive than that. Second, very few dealerships have the experience or expertise to reflash an ECU. Although I’ve never had one done, I’m confident that it costs more than $60 to send an ECU out for a reflash.
My bad, good point
sandtrack315
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sandtrack315 9/26/2020 5:15am
9/26/2020 5:15am
It would be nice to have shootouts mirror the consumer experience, where we get a bike and throw on bars, maybe do some suspension changes, get the tires we like, and then have the tester make a decision. I know this takes longer, as each tester would have to set up each bike, but it would be a great feature.
datkin128
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datkin128 9/26/2020 6:52am
9/26/2020 6:52am
yz133rider wrote:
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21...
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21.

Take a bike that didn’t win many shootouts in 19 and the only change Is a clutch in 2 years and now it wins?
The Kawasaki actually won a lot of shootouts in 2019, and when it didn't, was usually 2nd.
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datkin128
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datkin128 9/26/2020 6:59am
9/26/2020 6:59am
Jon Bingham wrote:
I know after I drop 10 gs first thing I want to do is spend another $ 1200
sandtrack315 wrote:
I agree, but a dealer could reflash the ECU (hopefully for free) and swap springs for 50-60 bucks.
quadzrulebro wrote:
First off, there is no way a dealer could swap out springs for $60. The springs themselves are more expensive than that. Second, very few dealerships...
First off, there is no way a dealer could swap out springs for $60. The springs themselves are more expensive than that. Second, very few dealerships have the experience or expertise to reflash an ECU. Although I’ve never had one done, I’m confident that it costs more than $60 to send an ECU out for a reflash.
One problem with an ECU flash on a new bike (minimum cost is $100 and could be $250) is that they have to have the bike long enough to do testing on it. So it won't be immediately available on a brand new bike. Not sure how long that takes. Also, one fork spring is around $75 or $100. Then it has to be installed, which isn't that difficult.
Dirty Points 9/28/2020 7:42am
9/28/2020 7:42am Edited Date/Time 9/28/2020 8:42am
yz133rider wrote:
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21...
I’m a bit surprised to see the kawi won the shootout. It didn’t win many in 19, unchanged for 20, and a new clutch for 21.

Take a bike that didn’t win many shootouts in 19 and the only change Is a clutch in 2 years and now it wins?
datkin128 wrote:
The Kawasaki actually won a lot of shootouts in 2019, and when it didn't, was usually 2nd.
...And it was "a close 2nd" (8:02) in this same shootout for 2020, with the Yamaha winning but coming into 2021 with no improvements.

https://youtu.be/UdAD35Ce7k4
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Zerofear66 9/28/2020 2:33pm
9/28/2020 2:33pm
Brent wrote:
...a few weeks ago, I pulled my old 2005 Honda CRF 450 out of storage for one last nostalgia ride at Cahuilla before I sold it...
...a few weeks ago, I pulled my old 2005 Honda CRF 450 out of storage for one last nostalgia ride at Cahuilla before I sold it.

Keep in mind I have not ridden the thing since 2013 or so, but the first time I took it out on the track it felt so crude and hard to ride. and having to kick start this bike to start it? Fuuuuuuck that.

I have sure gotten used to EFI, electric start, Modern suspension, and Powerbands that I can change with a push button on the handlebar.

I guess my point is that all these 450 bikes have come so far in the 20 years since they were first sold, and the current bikes are so good that testers have to pick nits like handlebar stiffness and fork spring weights in order to tell which is the best bike.


I really loved my 05. I put a HC stage 1 cam in it and a DMC full exhaust. It was magical.
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Lurk Ing 9/29/2020 3:18am
9/29/2020 3:18am
Motofinne wrote:
Honda talk is interesting. I was hoping for something like KTM did in 16, a bike that takes it to the next level but it seems...
Honda talk is interesting. I was hoping for something like KTM did in 16, a bike that takes it to the next level but it seems like it fell flat.

But like the guys mention, the bike has potential!
That's probably because you got the AER fork over there in Finny 2016 while the rest of the world got that horrendous 4CS fork that felt like a fork assembly that somebody had cobbled together with bits and pieces from a plumbing wholesaler.
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