Tomac and that Kawasaki

280driver
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280driver 8/23/2020 7:13am
8/23/2020 7:13am
Gravel wrote:
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and...
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and for the 2nd Moto the rider should adjust the way he rides to preserve the equipment and finish the 2nd Moto. He is there to do a job and should always have a clear mind and a real understanding of the limitations of the day. To keep hammering the $hit out of equipment that just broke from that treatment is asking for it to break again, that’s letting emotions control the outcome instead of doing the job like a professional. Think of how much more successful ET could be if he had better control of his emotions, when he’s on, he has (IMO) better speed than RC4 had. He just doesn’t manage difficulty as well.

Dungey had that race intelligence, and he was pretty successful, without the speed of ET3.
I’d bet that was Eli’s plan until he ended up on the ground and in last place in that second moto.........
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Fonzarelli
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Fonzarelli 8/23/2020 7:14am
8/23/2020 7:14am
Gravel wrote:
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and...
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and for the 2nd Moto the rider should adjust the way he rides to preserve the equipment and finish the 2nd Moto. He is there to do a job and should always have a clear mind and a real understanding of the limitations of the day. To keep hammering the $hit out of equipment that just broke from that treatment is asking for it to break again, that’s letting emotions control the outcome instead of doing the job like a professional. Think of how much more successful ET could be if he had better control of his emotions, when he’s on, he has (IMO) better speed than RC4 had. He just doesn’t manage difficulty as well.

Dungey had that race intelligence, and he was pretty successful, without the speed of ET3.
Maybe someone who is actually involved in racing at that level can give more input, but as an outsider I would I totally disagree with that premise. A riders job is to go as fast as he possibly can, that's it, he shouldn't ever have to worry about his equipment. Kawasaki employs a whole bunch of engineers, designers, mechanics, machinists, etc. who's job it is to make the bike survive and do whatever a rider needs it to do. There's millions of dollars at stake in these championships, If the bike can't survive Eli Tomac doing a mud race it's those engineers and designers that need to get better at their job, not Tomac.

I have not been keeping track but how often does factory KTM have a mechanical DNF? I can't even remember one.
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280driver
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280driver 8/23/2020 7:15am
8/23/2020 7:15am
dadofagun wrote:
I'm just curious what the next issue of "Kawasaki Proof in Racing" is gonna have to say about their day in the mud.......
Probably a lot on AC’s 2nd overall.
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Lineman25
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Lineman25 8/23/2020 7:15am
8/23/2020 7:15am
#434 wrote:
It used to be a part of the skill set of a racer to treat and race his machine in a way that it makes it...
It used to be a part of the skill set of a racer to treat and race his machine in a way that it makes it to the end. That skill seems lost in modern motocross
If a bike has an electrical issue that now becomes the riders fault?
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Natester551v
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Natester551v 8/23/2020 7:20am
8/23/2020 7:20am
jake721 wrote:
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another...
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another title.
avidchimp wrote:
Adam's bike finished both motos for 2'nd overall, so....
^^This
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quadzrulebro 8/23/2020 7:21am
8/23/2020 7:21am
When I was at the Chicago IMS show last year, Eli’s Championship bike was on display. I noticed that they had a trick works oil cooler mounted behind the radiator to address Eli’s clutch abuse issues. Problem is, when you start as poorly as Eli has so far this summer, no matter how much cooling surface you have, it won’t get the job done if you continue abusing the clutch while getting covered in mud by the 39 riders you need to pass. This obviously isn’t the bike’s fault either, since the larger and heavier AC has no problem pulling holeshots on it. If Eli wants to be mad, he should be mad at himself for his poor starts.
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Natester551v
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Natester551v 8/23/2020 7:28am
8/23/2020 7:28am
Gravel wrote:
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and...
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and for the 2nd Moto the rider should adjust the way he rides to preserve the equipment and finish the 2nd Moto. He is there to do a job and should always have a clear mind and a real understanding of the limitations of the day. To keep hammering the $hit out of equipment that just broke from that treatment is asking for it to break again, that’s letting emotions control the outcome instead of doing the job like a professional. Think of how much more successful ET could be if he had better control of his emotions, when he’s on, he has (IMO) better speed than RC4 had. He just doesn’t manage difficulty as well.

Dungey had that race intelligence, and he was pretty successful, without the speed of ET3.
Fonzarelli wrote:
Maybe someone who is actually involved in racing at that level can give more input, but as an outsider I would I totally disagree with that...
Maybe someone who is actually involved in racing at that level can give more input, but as an outsider I would I totally disagree with that premise. A riders job is to go as fast as he possibly can, that's it, he shouldn't ever have to worry about his equipment. Kawasaki employs a whole bunch of engineers, designers, mechanics, machinists, etc. who's job it is to make the bike survive and do whatever a rider needs it to do. There's millions of dollars at stake in these championships, If the bike can't survive Eli Tomac doing a mud race it's those engineers and designers that need to get better at their job, not Tomac.

I have not been keeping track but how often does factory KTM have a mechanical DNF? I can't even remember one.
Hartranft had one yesterday....

I see AMart basically going half speed for the last 6 laps to save his bike. Seems like the Geico Hondas and the KX450s (at least Tomac's) were steaming pretty early, which seems to imply to the naked eye anyway that their clutches dump an excessive amount of heat into the motor. Tomac seems to struggle with adapting his riding to save the machine (and he's known to be very hard on clutches).

This may be totally irrelevant, but my older (2007 era) KX450F would boil over almost immediately with even minimal clutch abuse in tight trail situations.
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#434
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#434 8/23/2020 7:56am
8/23/2020 7:56am
I‘m not surprised that those factory Kawis fall apart. Looking at their oil cooler design there can‘t be many smart guys on the team.. that‘s some piss-poor engineering!
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MB19
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MB19 8/23/2020 8:03am
8/23/2020 8:03am
Eli's got this. Win the next 14 motos and Zacho can get 2nd in every moto. Eli will win the title by 2 points. Simple as that haha it's gotta help him to know that as bleak as it may look, it's still possible. Kawi wins half its titles despite mechanical issues, it doesn't lose half the titles because of them. It's called optimism
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captmoto
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captmoto 8/23/2020 9:33am
8/23/2020 9:33am
CPR wrote:
Is kawi still running oil coolers on their bikes? Do both Tomac and AC run one? I haven’t noticed them this year, will have to look...
Is kawi still running oil coolers on their bikes? Do both Tomac and AC run one? I haven’t noticed them this year, will have to look...
Always thought it interesting that they ran coolers and no one else does. They obviously have a heat issue.
I was wondering the same thing too.
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captmoto 8/23/2020 9:38am
8/23/2020 9:38am
280driver wrote:
People hating on the Kawi are overlooking the number of other bikes that had failures. Osborns bike was close the crapping out.. A factory bike being...
People hating on the Kawi are overlooking the number of other bikes that had failures. Osborns bike was close the crapping out.. A factory bike being ridden by a pro rider in a mud race like that is stressed to the limit. It happens. Really sucks it happened twice to Tomac though and he has every right to be pissed. Certainly doesn’t mean the KX off the showroom floor is going to be unreliable.
Didn't Osborn finish a race with smoke pouring out of his bike, like half a moto? Might have been Thunder Valley. I remember the comments from the broadcast crew, amazed he finished. Maybe he was on a 250 then.
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jjavaman
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jjavaman 8/23/2020 9:39am
8/23/2020 9:39am
Wildeye511 wrote:
Dude busts his ass training and is the fastest guy out there and gets frustrated due to two mechanical failures.. People complain when riders dont show...
Dude busts his ass training and is the fastest guy out there and gets frustrated due to two mechanical failures.. People complain when riders dont show emotion on the podium. Well he didnt make the podium, but he showed his emotions. He let the bike fall, its not like he started jumping on it trying to smash it into pieces. It isnt like they arent going to go through the whole bike anyway.
Fastest guy out there?
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kr
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kr 8/23/2020 9:41am
8/23/2020 9:41am
ButteryWaffles wrote:
Wouldnt have happened if Mike Williamson was under the tent..
Neither would a supercross title
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jorgechavez 8/23/2020 9:47am
8/23/2020 9:47am
quadzrulebro wrote:
When I was at the Chicago IMS show last year, Eli’s Championship bike was on display. I noticed that they had a trick works oil cooler...
When I was at the Chicago IMS show last year, Eli’s Championship bike was on display. I noticed that they had a trick works oil cooler mounted behind the radiator to address Eli’s clutch abuse issues. Problem is, when you start as poorly as Eli has so far this summer, no matter how much cooling surface you have, it won’t get the job done if you continue abusing the clutch while getting covered in mud by the 39 riders you need to pass. This obviously isn’t the bike’s fault either, since the larger and heavier AC has no problem pulling holeshots on it. If Eli wants to be mad, he should be mad at himself for his poor starts.
I don’t think that oil cooler is there purely because of “Eli’s clutch abuse issues” seeing as its on AC’s bike and has been used on every factory Kawasaki outdoors for a number of years now (in the US).

I get a kick out of the people who act like Tomac has no idea how to get his bike to the finish, this wasn’t his first mud race lmao.
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captmoto
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captmoto 8/23/2020 9:48am
8/23/2020 9:48am
Someone asked about Hinson vs. Rekluse clutches. DF is running a full Rekluse. I don't know if is relevant to Tomacs problems because of riding styles, different engines, different clutch designs etc. DF did mention trying to save the bike after LL1 yet pulled the field and didn't holeshot either moto.
So far Husky reliability is trumping Kawi.
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WowWowWubzy
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WowWowWubzy 8/23/2020 9:51am
8/23/2020 9:51am
neysbo wrote:
No 4 peat that is for sure. We will have a new first time 450 champ when this is over
Would love to see ZO 16 as champ. But we have yet to see “Beast Mode”. Tomac is clearly faster, only a few points back. Should be a great series.👍🏻
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Dirty Points 8/23/2020 10:06am
8/23/2020 10:06am
neysbo wrote:
No 4 peat that is for sure. We will have a new first time 450 champ when this is over
WowWowWubzy wrote:
Would love to see ZO 16 as champ. But we have yet to see “Beast Mode”. Tomac is clearly faster, only a few points back. Should...
Would love to see ZO 16 as champ. But we have yet to see “Beast Mode”. Tomac is clearly faster, only a few points back. Should be a great series.👍🏻
Not quite sure how Eli is "clearly faster", when Zach has outpaced Eli in every moto this season.
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Momus
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Momus 8/23/2020 10:15am
8/23/2020 10:15am
jake721 wrote:
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another...
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another title.
avidchimp wrote:
Adam's bike finished both motos for 2'nd overall, so....
My thoughts are they had possibly ran out of built race engines and put a higher mileage practice unit in. Who knows?
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280driver
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280driver 8/23/2020 10:30am
8/23/2020 10:30am
captmoto wrote:
Someone asked about Hinson vs. Rekluse clutches. DF is running a full Rekluse. I don't know if is relevant to Tomacs problems because of riding styles...
Someone asked about Hinson vs. Rekluse clutches. DF is running a full Rekluse. I don't know if is relevant to Tomacs problems because of riding styles, different engines, different clutch designs etc. DF did mention trying to save the bike after LL1 yet pulled the field and didn't holeshot either moto.
So far Husky reliability is trumping Kawi.
Osbornes’s bike was this close to grenading.
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tek14
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tek14 8/23/2020 10:36am
8/23/2020 10:36am
teamddr wrote:
After not letting two of the USA,s best riders represent their countries in the MXON it’s good to see them getting a good helping of Karma...
After not letting two of the USA,s best riders represent their countries in the MXON it’s good to see them getting a good helping of Karma.
Ditto for husky for helping Zacho and JA21
The other Way round



Tomac = One of the best riders in the world
Kawasaki USA = a team not befitting of one of the best riders in the world
MotofactioN wrote:
Imagine Eli on the zook....there I said it.

Not one zook blew up.

Throw him on a yellow bike.
Just use 2012 Kawasaki and he will be fine also. That is pretty much same tech as 2020 Suzuki.
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GuyB
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GuyB 8/23/2020 11:12am
8/23/2020 11:12am
tek14 wrote:
Well nobody asked you. Its same if he dumped that piece of crap to ditch. If there is multimillion operation that cant build bike that lasts...
Well nobody asked you. Its same if he dumped that piece of crap to ditch. If there is multimillion operation that cant build bike that lasts 30min it not rider to blame.
Don't be that guy.

A rider has a lot of input into how their day goes. Some days, making sure you finish is a worthy goal. Not abusing the bike is part of what it takes to finish.

Zach mentioned that he got pit boards about the bike smoking, so the next couple of laps he made sure to go easy on the clutch, etc. Of course, he said that wend out the window when Marvin got close to him at the end of the moto. Wink
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kpiper
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kpiper 8/23/2020 11:15am
8/23/2020 11:15am
I did say "I cringed a little" when Eli let his bike drop to the ground. I get he was mad...I would be too. The General probably said something later about it. Someone had to pick the bike back up. He didn't do that at Red Bud.

I will say this...the next races should be great to watch. Eli has nothing to lose now and should just ride like a madman to try and win every moto. I hope he pulls it off!

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kpiper
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kpiper 8/23/2020 11:17am
8/23/2020 11:17am
jake721 wrote:
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another...
If the first engine failed, then why wouldn’t the second engine fail too? “Same” engine, same conditions. Team Kawi needs a fix if they want another title.
Exactly! Kawi has no tricks up their sleeves to bullet proof a bike on muddy days??? Come on.
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GuyB
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GuyB 8/23/2020 11:18am
8/23/2020 11:18am Edited Date/Time 8/23/2020 11:18am
kpiper wrote:
I did say "I cringed a little" when Eli let his bike drop to the ground. I get he was mad...I would be too. The General...
I did say "I cringed a little" when Eli let his bike drop to the ground. I get he was mad...I would be too. The General probably said something later about it. Someone had to pick the bike back up. He didn't do that at Red Bud.

I will say this...the next races should be great to watch. Eli has nothing to lose now and should just ride like a madman to try and win every moto. I hope he pulls it off!

I can't remember which team it was (maybe the Specialized mountain bike team when I worked there), but one of their rules was, "Don't disrespect the bike."
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brimx153
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brimx153 8/23/2020 11:20am
8/23/2020 11:20am
tek14 wrote:
Just use 2012 Kawasaki and he will be fine also. That is pretty much same tech as 2020 Suzuki.
Wat new tech does Tomac s kawi have over a JGR bike ..the last big tech change that any bike made was Yamaha . Then air fork s , which seem to have gone away . There has been feck all new technology, in 10 years. bar in the electric s . Which is available to factory teams.
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kpiper
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kpiper 8/23/2020 11:20am
8/23/2020 11:20am Edited Date/Time 8/23/2020 11:26am
Lloydcarter wrote:
Oh that’s cool. You’ve been going for your 4th outdoor title also sick!!
Yes, I have four 'outdoor' titles actually. Not AMA Pro motocross but still respectable titles.

But having titles or not has nothing to do with respecting your bike and the people who help you.
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Donkey Kong
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Donkey Kong 8/23/2020 11:26am
8/23/2020 11:26am
If he loses the title from these DNF's how many million in losses are we talking?
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Donkey Kong
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Donkey Kong 8/23/2020 11:28am
8/23/2020 11:28am
kpiper wrote:
Yes, I have four 'outdoor' titles actually. Not AMA Pro motocross but still respectable titles. But having titles or not has nothing to do with respecting...
Yes, I have four 'outdoor' titles actually. Not AMA Pro motocross but still respectable titles.

But having titles or not has nothing to do with respecting your bike and the people who help you.
4 Time Chicken Links Raceway champ right here
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Brent
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Brent 8/23/2020 11:31am
8/23/2020 11:31am
I’m going to point it out again - Tomac’s bike was running after he stopped in the first Moto, but before he threw the bike down. check the video.

Why would a four stoke motor run but not be able to move the bike forward? Most of you already know the answer.
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SpriteRep419
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SpriteRep419 8/23/2020 11:31am
8/23/2020 11:31am
Gravel wrote:
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and...
After one DNF, a pro rider should be pissed off, quietly and clearly make his management understand that there is a problem with the equipment, and for the 2nd Moto the rider should adjust the way he rides to preserve the equipment and finish the 2nd Moto. He is there to do a job and should always have a clear mind and a real understanding of the limitations of the day. To keep hammering the $hit out of equipment that just broke from that treatment is asking for it to break again, that’s letting emotions control the outcome instead of doing the job like a professional. Think of how much more successful ET could be if he had better control of his emotions, when he’s on, he has (IMO) better speed than RC4 had. He just doesn’t manage difficulty as well.

Dungey had that race intelligence, and he was pretty successful, without the speed of ET3.
Oh give me a fucking break. You’re talking as if you know the guy personally. The bike quit both times and it’s not a good look but understandable given the conditions. Feel like people here are pinning this on Eli just to try to blame Eli.

Jett Lawrence’s bike quit, and I don’t see anyone blaming him for it. It is what it is, we don’t have to play childish blame games just cuz we don’t like the riders
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