Tomac and that Kawasaki

280driver
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8/29/2020 5:16pm
I mean, that thing literally would be smoked out on the side of the track every other race, with Savagty going from 4th to DNF. It...
I mean, that thing literally would be smoked out on the side of the track every other race, with Savagty going from 4th to DNF. It was absurd.
280driver wrote:
That is simply not true. His DNFs on the Kawi where due to his wrecks that damaged the bike (snapped foot pegs, bent radiators etc.). He...
That is simply not true. His DNFs on the Kawi where due to his wrecks that damaged the bike (snapped foot pegs, bent radiators etc.). He destroyed his market share himself IMO by how he handled the situation.
I beg you to rewatch the races. Savagty was fine. Either the bike, or the mechanic, was a total POS.
That’s simply not true.
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Moto520
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8/29/2020 7:56pm
face biter wrote:
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With...
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With an adjustor on the lever perch of a conventional clutch you can tell how hard you’re using it and it’ll help you decide when to knock it off a bit, unfortunately you don’t get that kind of a heads up with a hydraulic one.
that was a great win today!
Great point!
Momus
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8/29/2020 9:01pm
face biter wrote:
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With...
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With an adjustor on the lever perch of a conventional clutch you can tell how hard you’re using it and it’ll help you decide when to knock it off a bit, unfortunately you don’t get that kind of a heads up with a hydraulic one.
that was a great win today!
It's already there.

The visual and olfactory clue that his clutch is getting tired is the smoke.
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face biter
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8/30/2020 7:44am
face biter wrote:
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With...
I think they just need to develop something to give him a visual cue as to how much wear he is putting on the clutch. With an adjustor on the lever perch of a conventional clutch you can tell how hard you’re using it and it’ll help you decide when to knock it off a bit, unfortunately you don’t get that kind of a heads up with a hydraulic one.
that was a great win today!
Momus wrote:
It's already there.

The visual and olfactory clue that his clutch is getting tired is the smoke.
The way I see it is that he and 39 other riders are putting a lot of wear and tear on their bikes at the same time so with the amount of passing and lapping people that he usually does he will constantly be hearing, seeing, smelling stuff.
I think he needs something to give him a heads up with just a quick glance without distracting him from the race, I know the mechanic has a pit board, but he’s only going to see that once per lap. Also, I’m pretty sure he is aware that he puts a lot of wear and tear on a bike, even the riders going laps down and not scoring points do that, but he doesn’t have time to be looking behind him, looking down at the bottom of the frame to check the breather and overflow hoses, he just needs something to reference quickly while remaining heads up and moving/thinking forward.
Riders with a healthy amount of mechanical apathy is a good thing in a sport like this, it drives innovation from the manufacturers, and gives them an edge over those who won’t push their equipment as hard. ( I’m my opinion).

The Shop

FGR01
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8/30/2020 7:47am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Man I bleed green but I was nervous that his bike wasn’t gonna finish that last moto. That bike needs a quart more oil in it...
Man I bleed green but I was nervous that his bike wasn’t gonna finish that last moto.

That bike needs a quart more oil in it, a jumbo radiator that holds an extra gallon of Engine Ice, 3 extra clutch plates and clutch springs off of a dragster!
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or, worse yet, get him injured. They need to find a way to keep more oil on the clutch or something.
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kkawboy14
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8/30/2020 8:34am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Man I bleed green but I was nervous that his bike wasn’t gonna finish that last moto. That bike needs a quart more oil in it...
Man I bleed green but I was nervous that his bike wasn’t gonna finish that last moto.

That bike needs a quart more oil in it, a jumbo radiator that holds an extra gallon of Engine Ice, 3 extra clutch plates and clutch springs off of a dragster!
FGR01 wrote:
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or...
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or, worse yet, get him injured. They need to find a way to keep more oil on the clutch or something.
Yep
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Andy7
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8/30/2020 9:15am
If I were his mechanic, I would buy a Rekluse Torq Drive, get a cnc-machined spacer so I can use the Hinson clutch cover and make everyone happy. You simply cannot burn steel friction disks in 20 minutes.
kpiper
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8/30/2020 10:11am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2020 10:12am
Andy7 wrote:
If I were his mechanic, I would buy a Rekluse Torq Drive, get a cnc-machined spacer so I can use the Hinson clutch cover and make...
If I were his mechanic, I would buy a Rekluse Torq Drive, get a cnc-machined spacer so I can use the Hinson clutch cover and make everyone happy. You simply cannot burn steel friction disks in 20 minutes.
Sure seems like Kawi should be able to do something.

They mentioned that John Tomac was very upset last week.
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Momus
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8/30/2020 10:22am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2020 10:24am
Andy7 wrote:
If I were his mechanic, I would buy a Rekluse Torq Drive, get a cnc-machined spacer so I can use the Hinson clutch cover and make...
If I were his mechanic, I would buy a Rekluse Torq Drive, get a cnc-machined spacer so I can use the Hinson clutch cover and make everyone happy. You simply cannot burn steel friction disks in 20 minutes.
I think he's burning friction discs, not steel driven plates.

One of my theories is that Eli is running it as a 3 speed with a very high first gear.
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Andy7
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8/30/2020 11:44am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2020 11:45am
Momus wrote:
I think he's burning friction discs, not steel driven plates. One of my theories is that Eli is running it as a 3 speed with a...
I think he's burning friction discs, not steel driven plates.

One of my theories is that Eli is running it as a 3 speed with a very high first gear.
Of course! That's why I suggest the torq drive. The torq drive clutch has steel friction disks (and 12 of them). They are pretty much bullet proof. And yes, he is absolutely hammering that clutch out of corners for sure.
Momus
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8/30/2020 12:19pm
Momus wrote:
I think he's burning friction discs, not steel driven plates. One of my theories is that Eli is running it as a 3 speed with a...
I think he's burning friction discs, not steel driven plates.

One of my theories is that Eli is running it as a 3 speed with a very high first gear.
Andy7 wrote:
Of course! That's why I suggest the torq drive. The torq drive clutch has steel friction disks (and 12 of them). They are pretty much bullet...
Of course! That's why I suggest the torq drive. The torq drive clutch has steel friction disks (and 12 of them). They are pretty much bullet proof. And yes, he is absolutely hammering that clutch out of corners for sure.
Bronze plates get used in some applications but with metal to metal the risk of nasty particles going through is a big factor.
philG
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8/30/2020 12:45pm
FGR01 wrote:
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or...
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or, worse yet, get him injured. They need to find a way to keep more oil on the clutch or something.
Or he could just stop abusing the fuck out of the clutch, how about trying that .

And while you were getting angry, i was getting hopeful.
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Hallzilla
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8/30/2020 1:05pm
FGR01 wrote:
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or...
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or, worse yet, get him injured. They need to find a way to keep more oil on the clutch or something.
philG wrote:
Or he could just stop abusing the fuck out of the clutch, how about trying that . And while you were getting angry, i was getting...
Or he could just stop abusing the fuck out of the clutch, how about trying that .

And while you were getting angry, i was getting hopeful.
That would be like you not abusing the keyboard, it aint gonna happen.
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seth505
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8/30/2020 1:08pm
ACs factory 450 wasn’t smokin.....
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philG
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8/30/2020 1:14pm
Hallzilla wrote:
That would be like you not abusing the keyboard, it aint gonna happen.
Thats all good then.

I think its poor that Kawasaki get shit , because he murders the bike.

Would it be acceptable to ride in 2nd gear all the time 'because thats how i ride'.. no it wouldnt .

I dont recall RV having a mechanical, you cant tell me he was easy on bikes.
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7
8/30/2020 2:43pm
It cracks me up, all these knuckleheads suggesting, “He should get a Rekluse/Hinson. That’ll solve all his problems.” If you don’t think they’ve tried every clutch on the market (and probably some that aren’t), you don’t know how a factory team operates.
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RalphS
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8/30/2020 3:12pm
FGR01 wrote:
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or...
I was getting angry at Kawi when I saw that smoke in the 2nd moto. I thought they were going to cost Eli another moto or, worse yet, get him injured. They need to find a way to keep more oil on the clutch or something.
philG wrote:
Or he could just stop abusing the fuck out of the clutch, how about trying that . And while you were getting angry, i was getting...
Or he could just stop abusing the fuck out of the clutch, how about trying that .

And while you were getting angry, i was getting hopeful.
Help me here bud:

Were you hoping him to DNF? If so, shitty thought

Were you hoping him to get injured? If so, shame on you
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neverwas
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8/30/2020 8:24pm
I'm sure Phil doesn't want to see Eli hurt, but his dislike for him is tiresome for sure.
No doubt Eli is harder on bikes than most but then again he is a multi time champion and faster than most and really fun to watch.
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8/30/2020 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 8/30/2020 8:30pm
philG wrote:
Thats all good then. I think its poor that Kawasaki get shit , because he murders the bike. Would it be acceptable to ride in 2nd...
Thats all good then.

I think its poor that Kawasaki get shit , because he murders the bike.

Would it be acceptable to ride in 2nd gear all the time 'because thats how i ride'.. no it wouldnt .

I dont recall RV having a mechanical, you cant tell me he was easy on bikes.
Clearly they need philG to tell them how a multi time champion should ride Silly
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FGR01
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8/30/2020 8:46pm
I think it's not so much Eli "abusing the clutch" outright as we all seem to suspect. I think he just rides with a really heavy throttle hand and that's what is killing the clutch. Either way, Kawi has to find a way to account for it. Whatever they may have tried, they haven't found it yet, obviously.
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mxb2
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8/31/2020 6:00am
neverwas wrote:
I'm sure Phil doesn't want to see Eli hurt, but his dislike for him is tiresome for sure. No doubt Eli is harder on bikes than...
I'm sure Phil doesn't want to see Eli hurt, but his dislike for him is tiresome for sure.
No doubt Eli is harder on bikes than most but then again he is a multi time champion and faster than most and really fun to watch.
He is still butt hurt over kawy not going to mxon.
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kpiper
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8/31/2020 11:31am
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too stupid to know better.

Ummm, he wants to win championships.
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philG
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8/31/2020 12:24pm
kpiper wrote:
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too...
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too stupid to know better.

Ummm, he wants to win championships.
And yet that is exactly what he does.

You dont see smoke pouring out of AC's bike, or anyone else's for that matter.

Kawasaki will have the data, they know what he is doing, the beauty of data logging is there is nowhere to hide.

There will be top guys in that 450 class, who could get 2 weekends out of a clutch with no issues whatsoever.
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kpiper
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8/31/2020 1:40pm
kpiper wrote:
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too...
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too stupid to know better.

Ummm, he wants to win championships.
philG wrote:
And yet that is exactly what he does. You dont see smoke pouring out of AC's bike, or anyone else's for that matter. Kawasaki will have...
And yet that is exactly what he does.

You dont see smoke pouring out of AC's bike, or anyone else's for that matter.

Kawasaki will have the data, they know what he is doing, the beauty of data logging is there is nowhere to hide.

There will be top guys in that 450 class, who could get 2 weekends out of a clutch with no issues whatsoever.
How did he made it through all those prior mud races then? He is actually the best mud rider in US I think except at certain times Barcia. Barcia revs the bike to the moon. So is he harder on the bike than Eli?

That would be a great question to ask Eli one day media people! Hint, hint...

"So Eli, do you think the way you ride, using the clutch a lot is why your bike smokes often and AC's does not? Why does your bike smoke like that?"
philG
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8/31/2020 1:51pm
kpiper wrote:
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too...
It is silly to think Eli rides around abusing the clutch and risking a DNF simply because he can't 'help himself'. Or that he is too stupid to know better.

Ummm, he wants to win championships.
philG wrote:
And yet that is exactly what he does. You dont see smoke pouring out of AC's bike, or anyone else's for that matter. Kawasaki will have...
And yet that is exactly what he does.

You dont see smoke pouring out of AC's bike, or anyone else's for that matter.

Kawasaki will have the data, they know what he is doing, the beauty of data logging is there is nowhere to hide.

There will be top guys in that 450 class, who could get 2 weekends out of a clutch with no issues whatsoever.
kpiper wrote:
How did he made it through all those prior mud races then? He is actually the best mud rider in US I think except at certain...
How did he made it through all those prior mud races then? He is actually the best mud rider in US I think except at certain times Barcia. Barcia revs the bike to the moon. So is he harder on the bike than Eli?

That would be a great question to ask Eli one day media people! Hint, hint...

"So Eli, do you think the way you ride, using the clutch a lot is why your bike smokes often and AC's does not? Why does your bike smoke like that?"
Dumb luck.

Barcia revs the bike to death, ask DV what he thinks about that, all that mass spinning causing all manner of problems, thats DV , who's 'guy' is making Barcia history at Yamaha.

Its no secret that Tomac murders the clutch, thats how he rides, thats how he says he rides, and thats how we see he rides. Its not an opinion, its a visible fact .

When you watch Herlings, or Kenny, or Marv, ride, they are pulling half the revs, a gear higher, everywhere, its not hard, its a choice.

Barcia actually went better when he stopped revving it ( his admission) and at Ironman he seemed to be less throttle happy than usual
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kkawboy14
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8/31/2020 2:16pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2020 2:17pm
Everyone has a plan until your punched in the face!

When Tomac is back in the pack (punched in the face).....his plan goes out the window! He rides with abandon and abuse. I wish I could abuse a 450 like that guy!
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kpiper
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8/31/2020 2:20pm
Ok, GuyB...you go to all the races. Does Tomac abuse his clutch more than other riders at that level?

I realize some riders like Kenny probably don't...but is there a noticeable difference in riders when you see them every race?
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kkawboy14
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8/31/2020 2:22pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2020 2:24pm
kpiper wrote:
Ok, GuyB...you go to all the races. Does Tomac abuse his clutch more than other riders at that level? I realize some riders like Kenny probably...
Ok, GuyB...you go to all the races. Does Tomac abuse his clutch more than other riders at that level?

I realize some riders like Kenny probably don't...but is there a noticeable difference in riders when you see them every race?
I’ll answer for Steve.....yes!

Also, Tomacs motor is not detuned to ride like a 350. That bike barks hard.

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