Making the Nationals more Exciting

Boggins
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Most of us loved watching Hangtown 450 moto2, seeing how far up the leader board Chase would get to.

How about this idea: make Moto 1 gate picks determined by picking a chip (1-40.) Moto2 gate picks determined by Moto1 finish.   The early Qualifying session results determine order for chip selection.

The current format in AMA Nat's, F1, MotoGP, MXGP results in the top riders / drivers getting the best starting spots, their finishing spot almost predetermined, and results in average racing.  I would much rather watch Max Verstapp, F. Bagnaia, M Marquez, Jett, Chase, Eli etc,  have to come thru the pack to get a top finish if they selected a chip with a less desirable starting spot / place.

I assume this will receive 50 thumbs down, but watching 11 Nationals with Jett, Hunta, Chase, Plessinger, JCooper, JAnderson and the top 10 riders finishing in that order is not very exciting.

Poll

Change the Starting Spot selection process

Choices
2
50
|
6/7/2024 12:16am

Have the racers line up single file based on their qualifying time - Slowest up front and fastest in the back.

Stagger the start by the lap time difference and let the fast guys pursue and pass all the slower racers to the checker flag!

Unfortunately, all the top fastest racers will sandbag the qualifying session so they do not have to start dead last Laughing

 

1
11
6/7/2024 12:24am

So qualifying becomes 100% meaningless? May as well call it free practice

12
Herr Lich
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6/7/2024 12:30am
Boggins wrote:
Most of us loved watching Hangtown 450 moto2, seeing how far up the leader board Chase would get to. How about this idea: make Moto 1...

Most of us loved watching Hangtown 450 moto2, seeing how far up the leader board Chase would get to.

How about this idea: make Moto 1 gate picks determined by picking a chip (1-40.) Moto2 gate picks determined by Moto1 finish.   The early Qualifying session results determine order for chip selection.

The current format in AMA Nat's, F1, MotoGP, MXGP results in the top riders / drivers getting the best starting spots, their finishing spot almost predetermined, and results in average racing.  I would much rather watch Max Verstapp, F. Bagnaia, M Marquez, Jett, Chase, Eli etc,  have to come thru the pack to get a top finish if they selected a chip with a less desirable starting spot / place.

I assume this will receive 50 thumbs down, but watching 11 Nationals with Jett, Hunta, Chase, Plessinger, JCooper, JAnderson and the top 10 riders finishing in that order is not very exciting.

28
1
philG
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6/7/2024 1:40am

Make them all do 100 push ups when the gate drops, or a Le Mans start where they run to the bikes... or a flaming shark tank . 

Just NO. 

8

The Shop

Question
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6/7/2024 2:39am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2024 3:37am

Not that it matters much, but 1 thing I would change is making the 2nd moto gate selection based on qualifying, not moto 1. It is too easy for a top rider to have his week-end ruined just because of a first turn crash, a crash or a dnf in moto 1. For a championship contender, or any guy that wants to be top 5 at the end of the year, it is almost like moto 1 must be taken easy, to make sure to max the points over the 2 motos. Being obliged to play it a lil safer in moto 1 is probably bringing a little less action. 

2
5
ATKpilot99
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6/7/2024 2:57am

They never had a random draw for 1st moto gate pick but didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto finish in the 90s ? 

Beagle
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6/7/2024 4:20am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2024 4:21am

They tried something a bit like that in world superbikes in 2017, making the fastest riders start further away. They had imposed some kind of reverse grid order for race 2 based on race 1 results.

It was as stupid as it sounds, the podium guys were starting from row 3 (in 7th, 8th and 9th spot, winner from race 1 starting from 9th in race 2). It just made them "come through the pack" like a knife through butter in no time, took plenty of risks to overtake early and still finished up in about the same order as in race one.

Bottom line is when you have a couple of exceptional riders a cut above the rest, such shenanigans are completely useless. It was just too much added risk for nothing, WSBK gave this up after a couple of years.

2
3
ga_pike
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6/7/2024 4:25am

They tried something like this in the early 80's at the LA Colosseum...  didn't go well.

 

 

 

11
Beeby
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6/7/2024 4:55am

This is one of the few sports where everyone starts in a straight line at exactly the same time and you still want to mess with it?

The key to making it more exciting is the riders getting faster to compete with Jett and Chase.

20
3strokemx
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6/7/2024 5:32am

The series owners love having a consistent winner because it brings in new fans which brings in new sponsors. 
It doesn't make sense to me, I'd rather watch and exciting race for the win, but that's how it goes.

Or I should say that's how it has gone, online betting could maybe challenge that template in the future.
 

5
GangGreen
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6/7/2024 5:43am
ATKpilot99 wrote:
They never had a random draw for 1st moto gate pick but didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto...

They never had a random draw for 1st moto gate pick but didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto finish in the 90s ? 

ATKpilot 99 asked,"...didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto finish in the 90s ?"

Yes, and that's still the way it is.  Possibly why Jett Lawrence kept riding at Fox Raceway, so he wouldn't get a horrid gate pick in moto 2.  I'll admit to being critical of MX Sports and excessive, unnecessary track grooming, but they left Fox Raceway get rough last week.  If they groomed it, there'd be nowhere to pass and Sexton would NOT have went from last to first.

Make it more exciting, how's about 250cc two-strokes against 250cc four-strokes ?  The AMA has permitted equal displacement racing for many years now.

9
1
mx 219
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6/7/2024 6:30am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2024 6:31am

The only way you could do this and try to make timed qualifying still work is if it was a random selectio after qualifying and the guys dont know which option they moght get. For example...

Have lottery balls that would be picked before a moto where it's based on fastest qualifier, position from last race, random selection, and slowest qualifier.

 

The gate pick selection process isnt broke though, so don't try to fix it.

6/7/2024 8:22am

There is nothing wrong with how they do gate selection. Leave it alone. There is nothing wrong with a 40-wide backwards falling gate. Leave it alone.

3
deerlick
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6/7/2024 8:28am

American gladiator tennis ball launchers shotting at the top 5 in points, lots of entertainment

3
lumpy790
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6/7/2024 10:08am

That’s not a new idea.

Before they changed to timed practice determining the moto qualification and gate pick instead of racing their way in, We used to pull 2 clothes pins during sign up to determine the line up order for the qualifiers races and the 1st moto if you qualified. Top 10 in points only drew 1 and didn’t have to qualify.

2
1
Magoofan
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6/7/2024 10:28am

They've already turned SX into a circus side-show....let's ruin outdoors too!

 

5
zehn
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6/7/2024 10:30am

How bout no

tomlopez
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Fantasy
6/7/2024 10:48am

I mean, I guess it would be "exciting", but it would also just be plain wrong. Imagine two title contenders being neck and neck going into the last round, and one of the guys picks a chip for the 40th gate pick and the other guy gets the 1st gate pick... would be an extremely lame way for a championship to be decided.

5
Hasletjoe
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Haslet, TX, USA
6/7/2024 11:36am

How about do something like...........45 minute motos?  This gives each competitor a chance to overcome a poor start, getting stuck behind "that guy" and differentiates SX versus MX.  Would allow the manufacturers to display their motorcycles endurance.

 

1
2
h20
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6/7/2024 11:50am

This was the Dumbest idea I’ve read all day long.  The problem with the world is people want to fix things that aren’t broke  

3
h20
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6/7/2024 11:50am
Hasletjoe wrote:
How about do something like...........45 minute motos?  This gives each competitor a chance to overcome a poor start, getting stuck behind "that guy" and differentiates SX...

How about do something like...........45 minute motos?  This gives each competitor a chance to overcome a poor start, getting stuck behind "that guy" and differentiates SX versus MX.  Would allow the manufacturers to display their motorcycles endurance.

 

If you can’t pass someone in 30 minutes you aren’t passing them in 45 .  

2
2
Soul Indigo
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6/7/2024 2:36pm
h20 wrote:

This was the Dumbest idea I’ve read all day long.  The problem with the world is people want to fix things that aren’t broke  

Nothing is enough. MORE!

I find moto has plenty of excitement. And when it’s not peaking, I still love it. 

3
Radical
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6/7/2024 5:39pm
Boggins wrote:
Most of us loved watching Hangtown 450 moto2, seeing how far up the leader board Chase would get to. How about this idea: make Moto 1...

Most of us loved watching Hangtown 450 moto2, seeing how far up the leader board Chase would get to.

How about this idea: make Moto 1 gate picks determined by picking a chip (1-40.) Moto2 gate picks determined by Moto1 finish.   The early Qualifying session results determine order for chip selection.

The current format in AMA Nat's, F1, MotoGP, MXGP results in the top riders / drivers getting the best starting spots, their finishing spot almost predetermined, and results in average racing.  I would much rather watch Max Verstapp, F. Bagnaia, M Marquez, Jett, Chase, Eli etc,  have to come thru the pack to get a top finish if they selected a chip with a less desirable starting spot / place.

I assume this will receive 50 thumbs down, but watching 11 Nationals with Jett, Hunta, Chase, Plessinger, JCooper, JAnderson and the top 10 riders finishing in that order is not very exciting.

I like this idea.

Moto 1 gate based on chip selection.

Moto 2 gate based on moto 1 results.

It would keep the racing closer.

Or, we could go back to 2 strokes.

Either way Smile .

2
6/7/2024 6:14pm

Nationals are nationals. Turn up the bikes and race.

early
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6/7/2024 6:22pm

Keep mx how it is, we have sx and smx for experimentation. How long have motos been 30 mins in the US?

KurtJ99
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USA
6/7/2024 6:28pm

More off cambers like Red Bud with inside /outside options. Less simple big jumps  that all guys can do but don’t separate skill. 

1
FI2T
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Kennewick, WA, USA
6/7/2024 6:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2024 6:50pm
GangGreen wrote:
ATKpilot 99 asked,"...didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto finish in the 90s ?" Yes, and that's still the...

ATKpilot 99 asked,"...didn't they used to have 2nd moto gate pics based on the first moto finish in the 90s ?"

Yes, and that's still the way it is.  Possibly why Jett Lawrence kept riding at Fox Raceway, so he wouldn't get a horrid gate pick in moto 2.  I'll admit to being critical of MX Sports and excessive, unnecessary track grooming, but they left Fox Raceway get rough last week.  If they groomed it, there'd be nowhere to pass and Sexton would NOT have went from last to first.

Make it more exciting, how's about 250cc two-strokes against 250cc four-strokes ?  The AMA has permitted equal displacement racing for many years now.

Yep, equal displacement in the 250 class and allow 300's in the 450 class! Hopefully Washougal has an even bigger 2stroke turnout this year!

My biggest complaint is the same as every year. I wish we had everyone out there, regardless both classes are going to be a battle. 

1
yz133rider
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6/7/2024 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 6/7/2024 8:29pm
FI2T wrote:
Yep, equal displacement in the 250 class and allow 300's in the 450 class! Hopefully Washougal has an even bigger 2stroke turnout this year! My biggest...

Yep, equal displacement in the 250 class and allow 300's in the 450 class! Hopefully Washougal has an even bigger 2stroke turnout this year!

My biggest complaint is the same as every year. I wish we had everyone out there, regardless both classes are going to be a battle. 

You lost me at 300s in the 450 class, it should be equal displacement also..  imagine if they started building lighter counterbalanced 350-450cc 2 strokes.

3
cable
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6/7/2024 8:45pm

Toss the grates and fork lock. 

1
Village Idiot
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6/7/2024 8:54pm

Some easy changes that would yield immediately noticeable results (in both MX and SX):

- Eliminate metal grates on the start

- Outlaw holeshot devices, traction control and other electronic aids (starting maps, etc.)

Not gonna beat on the 2-stroke drum but any time you require more skill to ride something, the more opportunities you have for rider error, which is the variability that makes the racing more unpredictable (and exciting).

Failing these, we could at least have a more entertaining show if an hour before the second moto they required riders to drink Turbolax with the number of ounces corresponding to the number of points they earned in the first moto - i.e., 1st place drinks 25 ounces, 2nd drinks 22 ounces and so on for all point-earning finishers. 

The 2nd moto suspense would be palpable.Grinning

1

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