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"Oh, and to the people who think that 'conventional' Spar Type Aluminum frames are not suitable for an E Bike - BS!"
If the frame design is the same as current ICE bikes, or Honda's electric bike, the front down tubes will reduce space available for the battery pack, limiting battery pack size and battery range...
If the front down tubes were wider than the battery pack, the battery pack could extend forward between the down tubes, enabling a larger capacity battery pack, this is what Stark did with the Varg.
Well, you can put the downtube, or, more likely, double downtubes further forward, and / or further outward. There's no Head / Exhaust outlet / Pipe to accommodate, at all.
You can have a double 'Hanger', or 'Legs', going down directly to whatever Motor / Casing you have if you don't want a 'full dual loop' / cradle frame. You know, something like the various XR 75s / 80s that we all so cherish.
The lack of imagination in people is Bloody astounding to me. There's so many ways to mount a Motor, so many ways to carry a Battery / Batteries.
Batteries can be all sort of shapes - the Stark Varg shows just that. That Honda's one shown, almost certainly is Not just a square or rectangular box.
A Twin Spar frame allows a vertical insertion / removal of a Battery pack, that can be non integral to the Chassis' Integrity / Performance. Or it can be but a partial part of it all.
And with Hondas now low upper shock mount, they've an enormous area above it, where the ICE engines induction system would be, with Nothing above the E Motor. A lot of space made available. And, the tradition forward loop between the spars, well, that can be a different shape / location. It can also not exist at all.
To repeat - what people take / regard as a 'conventional', Twin Spar Aluminium Frame, does Not have to be, Will Not be, exactly the bloody same as one that houses an ICEs complete system. And look not much different, to those that don't look, or think too hard before they say it's the same as an ICE carrying chassis and therefore can't be utilized to house a substantial battery.
You can tune the stark to any HP you want even go all the way down to 10hp and have your wife can ride it.
I think a huge appeal in the future to these bikes is you can ride it for YEARS as you progress and not have to ever size up or down on bike. You can have the same bike with 30hp or 60hp.
If they are so "idiot proof" and easy to ride why dont you hop on one and see if you can beat a LL level 85 rider? You can be a hero! I bet you still cant beat the kid wining c class at your local tracks even if he rides a busted piece of shit 250f from 2012.
God you guys act like these bikes are going to turn a common man into a fucking professional. There are advantages, but the other 1000 things that make a rider good (riding IQ, body positioning, etc) still have to be present. Which MOST don't have.
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Having built a DIY electric, One thing is certain. It is much easier to become a better technical rider on one. Once the technique is in ingrained in muscle memory, transferring to an ICE bike lets you improve your speed at a faster rate. In my opinion, transferring from an 85 to a full size bike will make for less injury for smaller riders because of the ease of riding. After becoming accustomed to the weight, with better technique, less injury seems obvious..
Yah they are talking like a lot of the people who have never ridden a dirtbike talk about dirt bikes. "You just sit on it and twist the throttle". "The bike is doing all the work". And many other statements claiming You do not need to be in good shape.
You still have to commit to jumping that jump. The pain of coming up short or overjumping is the same.
Cornering , body positioning, lots of stuff will cross over.
Its funny how just about everybody wants to put parts onto their bike that increase performance. But it looks like the Aftermarket is missing out on a big segment of riders who want to make their bikes worse. Harder to ride. And slower.
I think that people should try one if and when they have a chance to.
Have EMTB's grown mountain biking? Yup. The lack of sound WILL make it possible to have a track in places that would not be. Regardless of if more people ride or not. It can save spots that already are there.
I do not think the comparison to an Electric Car is really a great one. Cars are already near silent . And You are restricted in how fast You can drive, etc. With a dirt bike most people are not riding long enough for range to be an issue if they are riding on an MX track. And the noise output is drastically reduced on the Electric MX bike VS gas. So it opens up building a track if You or a buddy have a few acres.
Cars are also already pretty maintenance free compared to a dirtbike. So the lack of filter changes after every ride, oil changes, clutch, etc. Is not there on a Car. You can go 3000+ miles before even changing the oil. On a dirt bike You will have done 100's of air filters, a clutch , and rebuilt the engine (on most bikes going by the manual) over that same period.
A new rider can turn the power down on an electric MX bike so it is not intimidating VS gas. Not something that people really would ever want to do with a Car. Although it might be good to limit Your Tesla Plaid if You let Your 16 year old son go joy riding . But there is really less usefulness in limiting the power in a Car VS dirt bike.
A varg or other full sized electric is a step up from an EMTB or Sur-ron style bike. So You may have more crossover there since it will not be as big of a change as far as where they can ride, maintenance,etc. As going to a full sized MX bike would be.
Those are reasons I see an electric MX bike being able to attract new riders, and why it makes more sense to go electric with a dirtbike than a Car. I see the change from 2 to 4 strokes being more of a similar comparison than bringing cars into it.
Coal is responsible for less than 20% of the electricity generated in the US, so " the electricity is still by and large generated through coal " might be a bit of a stretch.
There will be another sharp increase in price. This will open the door for cheaper alternatives than Stark and Honda.
Maybe something like the CFmoto ? I saw they also have some electric pit bike/kid sized bikes coming out. I saw this on the Australian CFmoto website. They have a larger product range than the US site. THis is a link to the 2 kids sized electric .https://www.cfmoto.com.au/news/cfmoto-introduces-cx-electric-fun-bike-r…;
Not for, or against.
But I can assure you 40 Electric bikes racing is not going to be a quite event.
Dont mention the 200+ noisy generators in the pits.
With dust is still the issue, mx tracks will still close at the same alarming rate.
It'll be kind of sad to see kids grow up without the noise and excitement ? for lack of a better word of an internal combustion engine. Dirt bikes will become just another electric toy to them. Nothing to maintain or keep running or start or shift or any of that. No noise or heat or adrenalin rush when it starts, just jump on it and go like all their other toys. Yeah I know I'm old...
My grandkids are getting a pw50 and a briggs and stratton powered go kart, just cuz haha
Yeah let's put this idea to rest once and for all. Just kidding, it will pop back in the next electric thread.
Anyway, long thread.
In 2022, coal accounts for 36% of the global electricity mix. However coal will soon be second to renewables (30% and growing steady). In all, fossil fuels still account for 60% of the total electricity world production, the remaining 10% come from nuclear power.
Let's go back to bikes (or cars, sorry about that). Building a new EV produce around 80% more emissions than comparable gas-powered car, but like with gasoline cars, most emissions from today’s EVs come after they roll off the production floor.
The major source of EV emissions is the energy used to charge their batteries, which varies enormously based on where the car is driven and what kind of energy is used there.
The comparison between electric and ICE total emissions is a no brainer for countries that are big on renewables, such as Iceland (100% electricity comes from renewables), Norway (99%), Brazil (87%), New Zealand (86%), Austria (76%), Canada (70%), Sweden (68%), Portugal (60%), Switzerland (59%), Finland (55%), Germany (42%) or UK (41%) to name a few.
Now let's not set the bar so high, let's look at the US. Interestingly with 60% fossil fuels in their electricity mix, the US are right on the world average (although they're still lagging on the renewables share with 22%, the rest comes from nuclear).
So in the US, on average, EV emissions will be 45% less than ICE. If you need to replace the battery, or if the vehicle lasts for 90 000 miles instead of 180 000 miles, the EV still emits 40% less. Best case scenario, say Washington state where 2 thirds of the electricity come from hydropower, the EV will emit 70% less CO2 than ICE. Worst case scenario, West Virginia generating 95% of its electricity from coal, the EV still emits less CO2 than ICE, though barely 5% less in this extreme case.
So basically, EV cars will always emit less CO2 than ICE, taking into account minerals mining, vehicle production and electricity mix, even where 95% of electricity comes from coal. Keep in mind this is with the current electricity mix and of course the world is turning more towards renewables so it'll be more like Washington state, and less like West Virginia
Sorry this comes from a 200 pages report about cars (reference 4 from MIT link below), page me when you'll find the same report for motorcycles (maybe in 10-15 years).
Now can we go back to dirtbikes?
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/are-electric-vehicles-definitely-better…
https://ourworldindata.org/electricity-mix
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_United_States
So now Electric Bikes are too quiet but also too loud. I am honestly wondering what a pack of them will sound like. SInce it is a high pitch sound. Who knows.
I have said this many times, But the pits of RACES are already FULL of generators. For the retail price of a full TI exhaust system You can buy an inverter style generator that runs at 56-68db .
Water the dust.
I can tell You from personal experience that less noise will equal less issues for a MX track. Tracks might still close down, but not from noise. Go and talk with some real people that have tracks. I know multiple tracks around me that would have many few complaints if nobody could hear them.
I know it will not save every track or riding spot , but for sure it will save some and bring opportunities for riding in other places.Also as far as team sponsorships go. If electric has the appearance of being " green" that could also open up sponsorship opportunities. Battery or Solar companies.
Yes it would be different if electric takes over like 4 strokes have. But if an engine that sounds like my grapas old tractor when the exhaust rusted out can take over the sport, why wouldn't a machine that is not so offensive sounding not also be a hit. I love the sound of a crisp 2 stroke. And I could see myself riding one for the sound. But if I could ride a 4 stroke and have it not make any noise VS the sounds they make now. I would be all in.
I do not see a switch happening as fast as there was with 4 strokes since right now there are not any rules allowing them in Pro racing. And its hard to get them. Harder than it was to get a YZ400 or CRF450 when they first came out. And even if electric becomes the majority , I still see KTM,Beta,Sherco and others making gas powered bikes. And I would also bet that we see some MTB brands get involved and build a chassis and use battery,motor and controllers from a Honda or Yamaha or even Stark. Everything has a beginning and end. Honda was at one time a new brand that was not trusted because Japanese stuff was looked at like Chinese stuff is today. Stark could be a giant of the future. Or who knows.
I’ve owned, ridden, and raced 125s, 250s of both flavors, 300 two strokes, 350 four strokes, 450s and 500s. I’ve had all the Japanese brands and Ktm husky and Gasgas over the years.
I’ve ridden an alta on a legit mx track. And I stand by my statements. They aren’t without experience and considerable time in the sport...
Using the space above Honda's lowered upper shock mount for the battery pack, would raise the center of gravity, which would have a negative effect on handling, it would also move the center of gravity rearwards, which may have a positive or negative effect on handling.
Keeping the "full dual loop" cradle frame, but widening the front down tubes so the battery pack can extend between them, would provide some crash protection for the battery. The negative is more material so more weight, something electric bikes are struggling with.
It looks like Stark's frame has been designed to optimize battery pack design, and minimize weight, there's no reason the same frame concept can't be made in aluminum.
I could see some people getting hurt since they would have the power to jump , jumps over their head. But I also think that You will also have people avoiding getting hurt since they will be able to clear a jump easy instead of just making it. Kinda like the difference of a vintage bike and modern bikes suspension. But Unless You are really really bad at shifting , You are not going to gain much MPH on a Varg over a gas bike going down a straight. And just because a bike has the power to jump something, Not everybody is going to just shut off their brains and go for it.
Even if the Varg dropped a C class riders lap times by 15 seconds per lap. There is still a gap that big or bigger between top guys and the guys who are just making the motos. The overall speed is not increased that much. Friends of mine who finished outside the top 20 at Nationals that were racing in the days of RC and James Stewart, With lap times in the motos off by 10 plus seconds have told me that when they get lapped. They would stay with RC or James for a few corners. And then those guys would slowly just slip away. By not making the minor mistakes my friends were making. A rider on a 2 minute track that has alap time 10 seconds faster is making up that time by not dabbing, not blowing out a corner, etc. They are not going 10 MPH faster anyplace on the track.
I think that most people are still going to have that little thing in their head. telling them not to go for it. Yah some people will not. But those same people would also get hurt on a 450 or a 2 stroke 500. I doubt You'll have an epidemic of people forgetting what it feels like to overjump something , or people so new to riding that will just decide to go out and jump the biggest jumps on the track. Just because the bike has the power to do it. Maybe I'm giving people more credit than I should. Maybe more people are as crazy as You think they are. Maybe I'm just old.
Pit Row
Umm not sure. But, again, even though there’s development by the OEMs, by the time they get to production their bikes, and certainly the Varg 2.0, could be well over $15k. While there’s riders who can afford it, it’s still out of reach for most.
Companies like Surron and Talaria already have bikes that are less than $4k and Surron is steadily developing is full size MX bike that has already been around for several years. Sure they’re not as sturdy as the Varg, but it’s over $5k less. And this is just one company.
Me too, have you ever seen the Langtown Supercross races?
That type of racing could potentially be everywhere! With KX100 sized electric bikes
This picture is a 4 stroke DMC I think it's the one Ryan Hughes Raced at Langtown.
Lots more people got hurt after the switch to four strokes because they were easier to go fast on, also the severity of the injuries went up. So I could see easier to go fast on as being a negative.
Maybe they could set power limits in racing like C class has to all run set at 30 Hp. B class 40 HP, and A class open or something like that? But in general raising the speeds on a motocross track doesn't seem like a positive IMO.
Yah I can see people getting hurt , but I can also see it making riders safer too. The Stark Varg might be a unicorn of a bike.
When the other brands come out with bikes, they might have a 45-55 HP bike for the 450 class and 30ish HP for the 250 class. I would look more at what Honda's EMX bike has for power as what to expect . Honda and the other existing brands have a working relationship with the AMA,FIM, etc. And I would be very surprised if there has not been some sort of conversations on what the rules may be for an electric option in each class.
I suppose there must have been an increase in injuries when bikes went from dual shocks to the longer travel single shocks too.Carbs to EFI. Every advancement in performance has the potential downside. Maybe rider education could help limit some of the learning curve injuries that may result.the 2 stroke 500 class went away. If a lower powered EMX bike results in better racing, who knows what will happen as far as peak power.
With the almost limitless adjustability they could come up with some way of limiting power to help make them safer for beginners. It is much easier to do with an electric motor than gas. There are tuners for my SXS gas pedal. Maps that change the programed delay . From the factory my SXS throttle is programed to not respond to the minor input that driving through bumps at speed can cause with newer drivers. Some cars are programed not to give the full power until after a certain number of miles. Perhaps a username could be used to control power delivery. And on a stock bike You would have to ride X amount of time before unlocking higher power levels. And aftermarket tuners could offer a way around that learning lock.
Unfortunately motocross will always be dangerous as long as You have the human controlled element that makes it what it is. I think improved safety gear should be a priority too. For both gas and electric. I have worried that if electric did bring in a big boom of new riders that the downside would be more issues like injuries and lawsuits. Electric can solve a lot of problems but nothing is perfect. I have not ridden in a while because on injuries. But as far as I go, I never had a jump that I would have tried if I just needed more power to clear it.
I get what you’re saying about it being easier to make jumps as a good thing. I’ve felt that on 450s vs a 125, but I’ve also felt gone for jumps I’ll never make on a 125 on a 450, I don’t have the elite corner speed of the legit fast guys who can make it on the smaller bikes but put me on a 450 and I can jump it.
do I have any business jumping it just because the bikes fast enough, not sure, the risks are huge I know that.
One wrong move with the throttle and it breaks traction with the high hp bikes and you’re along for a ride.
the fast and hooked up bikes are great until one wrong moment or they finally do break traction and you’re ejected hard and fast.
the slower lighter bikes don’t do that.
I really think the majority of riders are c class and at this point vets, they’d have more fun and the racing would be better, albeit slower, on 125s
look to spec Miata racing. The costs, risks, and limits are lower, the racing is closer, the cars are approachable, and the classes are the biggest in that type of racing.
watching old guy classes on 450s and hearing more chain slapping than rpms and watching them get jerked around down every straight is almost a shame to watch.
we’re all bamboozled by the highest performance and we “gotta have it for the starts” and then suffer on the entire rest of the track.
I think ( really hope) that You will end up seeing a lower priced "base" Varg available. And then some higher priced options. Anton has talked about a similar model to MTB's. With higher level options being available.
And the CF moto prototype was posted about on here with one of the Renner's riding it. CFmoto has a rep for having lower priced similar specced and or offer more features in the segments they make vehicles for. And still be less expensive. As fun and cool as the Surrons are, they are still a ways off from a real dirtbike. I know it is possible to make electric MX bikes that cost less than gas bikes. They would just have to be selling a similar number of bikes. And or using the motors,controllers and as many other parts across multiple product lines to help spread the cost per part.
Who said that all EMX bikes have to have 80HP ?? I bet that something in the 35-45HP range would be fun and enough power for most people that ride. Just because the Varg has big Max HP doesn't mean that will be what the other bikes are. Or that nobody will build a lighter less powerful option.
Specialized has their SL lines that have smaller batteries, less torque, etc. Basing everything on the Varg ,that was designed to be the fastest and most powerful dirtbike is kinda like comparing every street bike to a Hayabusa. The current Varg just might be the dirt version of a Hayabusa. With the big racing classes running lower powered versions. Just about everybody who rides the Varg says that the 80HP setting is crazy. They did it because they could. To get attention and show what electric and they could do.
The Max power of electric can be impressive, but its the controllability, flexibility of chassis design, reduced number of overall parts, less maintanance along with many other things that make me believe in and excited about electric.Not giant max power numbers. Sure they can build those too. But like the days of 500 2 strokes, not everybody will enjoy riding with that much power more than with less. And as much as I think electric can do good for MX. I do not want to see gas bikes go away.
Maybe why I'm so harsh on the EV bikes, besides the politics, is because to me it makes the bike seem like a toy rather than a machine or a tool. Growing up on RC cars before I got to motocross, anything electric seems like a childish toy instead of a manly machine. I honestly never thought long enough on the HP mapping until a minute ago. The way someone put it into better perspective, you can basically own a 250F AND a 450F in 1 bike package. You can have a HP map of a 250F with 45HP and then a 450F with 60HP the next time you go out. I'm still never going to buy 1, but its one good perk.
You can also have a 125 and 110 or 50 all by tuning. You can ride a moto and have the free rolling, and lower HP feel of a 125. Then pull in, charge up and go back out with Your 450 map on and have engine braking and power more like a 450.
I could see a shop like PC selling maps that would mimic the feel of past champs bikes. You could ride with the RC 125 package, or the RC rmz power package. And they could tune it to mimic each style of power. It might be a novelty . But I think It would be fun to get to feel what the power was like for each riders bikes back then.
Just the max power alone doesn’t take into account the breadth and traction these things will have. 250fs have shown to destroy 125s despite being similar peak hp when they first came out because of the traction and breadth of power.
these electric bikes will have that x10 since they make peak tq at any time of asking.
sure they can tune it down but who really thinks they’ll be tuned closer to an 85s power spread vs a 450s let’s be real nobody is going to Tune them to be narrow power band and hard to use.
any way nobody cares lolol
Have you driven an electric 1/8th scale car?
There's already a way to do it, but that price tag, though...
https://dirtbiketest.com/fresh-dirt/ktm-freeride-e-xc-electric-supermini-riding-impression/
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