Talent or Factory Parts

TXDirt
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8/7/2022 6:41pm
kripple428 wrote:
I believe Talent matters 0 percent if you are willing to put in the work. Anybody can become great at something if they really want it...
I believe Talent matters 0 percent if you are willing to put in the work. Anybody can become great at something if they really want it. Look at Carmichael that dude had very little natural talent on a bike. But his work ethic was insane and he would rather die than get beat so he worked his ass off and became the greatest of all time. Look at MJ he got cut from his sophomore varsity team and that lit a fire under his ass he didn’t have natural talent either because he was going to outwork EVERYBODY no matter how gnarly it was and he went on to become the greatest basketball player of all time by a long shot. You can have all the talent in the world but without the work ethic it takes to be at the top you won’t make it on the flip side you can have little to no talent but willing to bust your ass and out work everyone day in and day out and you can make up for that lack of talent.
TXDirt wrote:
The best rider to ever throw a leg over a dirt bike had “very little natural talent”???? Are you high? He was a prodigy at like...
The best rider to ever throw a leg over a dirt bike had “very little natural talent”????

Are you high?

He was a prodigy at like 9 years old.

Yes, his hard work obviously allowed him to excel and attain level talent takes you.

But make no mistake. He was obviously gifted and talented. I know. I raced against him for years on minis. He’s talented. Beyond any possible measure.
kripple428 wrote:
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him...
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him and made him work sections over and over and over again. Anyone that was putting in the work he was could have been on his level but there are very very few people on the planet willing to put themselves through that much torture no matter how bad they say they want it they don’t want it like that. He had less natural talent thank you think. Dude just worked his ass off.
Put the pipe down!!
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8/7/2022 8:47pm
This thread took a tangent from the O.P. It started out as top 10 finishes and ended with a heads up between ET and CS.
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Tumic
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8/7/2022 9:15pm
kripple428 wrote:
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him...
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him and made him work sections over and over and over again. Anyone that was putting in the work he was could have been on his level but there are very very few people on the planet willing to put themselves through that much torture no matter how bad they say they want it they don’t want it like that. He had less natural talent thank you think. Dude just worked his ass off.
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?.

And yet he don’t have a chance against Jett Lawrence, how come?
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stone881
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8/7/2022 9:34pm
kripple428 wrote:
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him...
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him and made him work sections over and over and over again. Anyone that was putting in the work he was could have been on his level but there are very very few people on the planet willing to put themselves through that much torture no matter how bad they say they want it they don’t want it like that. He had less natural talent thank you think. Dude just worked his ass off.
Tumic wrote:
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?. And yet he...
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?.

And yet he don’t have a chance against Jett Lawrence, how come?
Probably because he crashes every moto.
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The Shop

kripple428
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8/7/2022 9:59pm
kripple428 wrote:
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him...
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him and made him work sections over and over and over again. Anyone that was putting in the work he was could have been on his level but there are very very few people on the planet willing to put themselves through that much torture no matter how bad they say they want it they don’t want it like that. He had less natural talent thank you think. Dude just worked his ass off.
Tumic wrote:
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?. And yet he...
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?.

And yet he don’t have a chance against Jett Lawrence, how come?
stone881 wrote:
Probably because he crashes every moto.
Exactly. Hard to win when you crash 2-3 times every moto.
8/7/2022 11:20pm
T-Fish wrote:
Maybe one of them would gel better with the Suzuki than they do their Honda or Yamaha...
Don’t come on this forum surmising or with a mind open to suggestion… the stalwarts don’t like it.
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3
8/7/2022 11:42pm Edited Date/Time 8/7/2022 11:46pm
Tumic wrote:
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?. And yet he...
Let’s take a modern example then. RJ Hampshire trains with Aldon, and would by that means that he put in the work, right?.

And yet he don’t have a chance against Jett Lawrence, how come?
"The work" is not all physical. 99% is mental. 99% is analysis.

- Clearly Hampshire hasn't analyzed why he crashes and made changes.

-So no - he isn't putting in the work.

*sidenote: every contender needs a Dazzy Lawrence / DV / John Tomac / Jeannie / Big James behind them or they just become another statistic. Hampshire could be a contender if he eat, slept, shit sx under someone like DV.

-Same goes for Forkner - talented AF. Just 0% analysis. (Its hard when you are that age and focused on being cool all the time - guys like him will kick themselves in the head when they turn 30 and realize the cool guys from their 20s are fucking A grade losers)
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Jonracing
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8/8/2022 12:06am Edited Date/Time 8/8/2022 4:33am
Factory Smaktory. Most of the parts are for show, as the bike is a one big billboard of parts only for promotional purposes. James Stewart showed this years ago on a bog stock KX250. Fork lugs for example. No difference. Holds the axle. Engine mounts. Holds the engine in. Special chain guides, guides the chain. All as the OEM stuff does. They do look pretty... that's what it's about, nothing more.
I saw one post on Vital about one of the Honda guys using a specific Rim, because of the 'flex characteristics'. What a joke! Whens the last time you went around a berm, thinking, 'oh, the flex in my Rims could be better'. Bullshit! That's adjusted with tire choice, or pressure.
Don't forget your drilled Titanium bolts... Yep, you'll notice that, NOT!
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8/8/2022 4:12am
Didn’t Reed once say the difference between his factory bike and a stock bike was 0.5 seconds a lap?

Also dedication, determination and practice destroy talent in everything. There’s some good books on it, worth a read.
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DonM
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Fantasy
8/8/2022 6:40am
I 100% do.
Brad460 wrote:
ET or Sexton could beat most anyone else on a RMZ450, but would be at a disadvantage against each other riding one..
T-Fish wrote:
Maybe one of them would gel better with the Suzuki than they do their Honda or Yamaha...
RC did....
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1
8/8/2022 12:51pm
H4L wrote:
Do you think ET3 or CS23 can beat one another if one of them was on a RMZ450 ?
It would have mattered a couple weeks ago when they both tipped over and stalled in the same corner. Whomever is on the yellow bike in...
It would have mattered a couple weeks ago when they both tipped over and stalled in the same corner. Whomever is on the yellow bike in the scenario would not have won the race.
You sure? Sexton's bike took forever to start with his e-start.
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J2s
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8/8/2022 1:15pm
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philG
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8/8/2022 2:33pm
I had a full Factory , ex World Championship race winning Supermoto bike... where SM bikes are concerned, its all about HP and chassis, and being able to use it.

It was worth 1-2 secs a lap everywhere , and 3 at some tracks, which is a huge amount on tarmac.

i scored a point in the German Pro class, against some of the best guys in europe, after being midpack in the class below the year before.

I still have the forks and brakes off that bike 10 years later, they are still better than anything you are allowed to buy , for me at least .
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Radical
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8/8/2022 2:53pm
I'm pretty sure you could put half the guys in the vet classes I race on factory bikes, and the results would be about the same.
90%+ Rider, 10%- Bike.
Chris_Buehler
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8/8/2022 3:44pm
TXDirt wrote:
The best rider to ever throw a leg over a dirt bike had “very little natural talent”???? Are you high? He was a prodigy at like...
The best rider to ever throw a leg over a dirt bike had “very little natural talent”????

Are you high?

He was a prodigy at like 9 years old.

Yes, his hard work obviously allowed him to excel and attain level talent takes you.

But make no mistake. He was obviously gifted and talented. I know. I raced against him for years on minis. He’s talented. Beyond any possible measure.
kripple428 wrote:
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him...
He was at prodigy at 9 years old because he was out putting in motos day in and day out while his mom screamed at him and made him work sections over and over and over again. Anyone that was putting in the work he was could have been on his level but there are very very few people on the planet willing to put themselves through that much torture no matter how bad they say they want it they don’t want it like that. He had less natural talent thank you think. Dude just worked his ass off.
TXDirt wrote:
Put the pipe down!!
RC had very little natural talent. Quite possibly the dumbest thing ever posted on Vital
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Bruce372
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8/8/2022 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2022 4:06pm
People dont seem to factor in testing. Not necessarily the parts on the bike, but the hours spent setting up the bike for the rider.
That comes down to resources, and does any amateur racer have as much time and data as Star racing?
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8/8/2022 4:31pm
Juck wrote:
These comments are so annoying. No one is saying that if you put factory parts on a bike then it will ride itself. But a factory...
These comments are so annoying. No one is saying that if you put factory parts on a bike then it will ride itself. But a factory bike is going to be way better than a stock one, if you take like a 5th-10th place 250 pro and get him to do laps on a stock bike and then on a factory bike on a track with a 2 minute lap time (think like the average national track, not a tight track) I'd say his lap times would probably be 4-5 seconds faster. You can disagree if you like but even if it's only 2 seconds that difference at that level is huge.

Yeah a c rider on a 2006 YZ250f won't become a national championship contender if you put him on a factory bike, no shit. No one is saying that would happen.
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!! HOLD ON NOW This reply made WAY too much sense and is highly accurate. You are going to get kicked out of here for doing this..

Great reply, completely agree
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mx 219
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8/8/2022 6:12pm
The question was once asked to Dungey how much better a factory bike is over a stock bike and he said he felt it was only 15-20% better.

I think it takes hard work (#1), talent and good equipment. I think there is a reason Eli Tomac has multiple championships, he puts in more work than most of the other guys.
FreshTopEnd
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8/9/2022 1:09pm
It takes talent to make works parts enhance performance. It's sort of the privateers' vicious downcycle: the most talented get what works better at their higher performance levels,
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OleTex
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8/9/2022 1:55pm
Both, along with very good training.
8/9/2022 3:45pm
All you need is talent either your born with it or not. A talented rider also has an Extremely huge advantage mentally. He can do things more easily than others struggle with countless hrs of practice. The non talented rider constantly trains . Then struggles in the whoops. The talented rider calls the whoops a straight away. Give the talented rider a mod bike and he will be able to max it out. If the non talented hard training rider ever closes the gap. The talented rider just does 30 min of cardio during the week to open the gap back up.
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8/10/2022 6:19pm
RC wasnt exactly the most stylish rider and i think that is why people say he wasnt super talented, which he was.

8/10/2022 6:23pm Edited Date/Time 8/10/2022 6:25pm
TXDirt wrote:
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc. Make no mistake…. TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or...
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc.

Make no mistake….

TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or special parts.

If you are in the top 10 you likely have access to just about everything for free or near free. Bikes, motors, suspension.

Special parts does not overcome TALENT.

You either got it or you don’t. And if you are top ten talent you are pretty well taken care of.

Change my mind….
I disagree that it only takes talent. Lots of guys with talent but no discipline, hard work and a lack of focus didn't amount to much. I won't name names, but we all know who the unrealized "talent" is in this sport.

Talent + discipline + work ethic + support + no major injuries = success in this sport. Having a "factory" prepped bike doesn't hurt.

Dungey is just one example of someone who didn't have remarkable talent as an amateur. He worked hard. He had great support. He never had any major injuries. He became a champion.
TXDirt
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8/10/2022 6:33pm
TXDirt wrote:
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc. Make no mistake…. TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or...
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc.

Make no mistake….

TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or special parts.

If you are in the top 10 you likely have access to just about everything for free or near free. Bikes, motors, suspension.

Special parts does not overcome TALENT.

You either got it or you don’t. And if you are top ten talent you are pretty well taken care of.

Change my mind….
I disagree that it only takes talent. Lots of guys with talent but no discipline, hard work and a lack of focus didn't amount to much...
I disagree that it only takes talent. Lots of guys with talent but no discipline, hard work and a lack of focus didn't amount to much. I won't name names, but we all know who the unrealized "talent" is in this sport.

Talent + discipline + work ethic + support + no major injuries = success in this sport. Having a "factory" prepped bike doesn't hurt.

Dungey is just one example of someone who didn't have remarkable talent as an amateur. He worked hard. He had great support. He never had any major injuries. He became a champion.
I didn’t say it only takes talent. Obviously hard work is a key component.

Take Deegan for example. Put him on a stock bike with his normal suspension and he’s getting top three atleast.

All this stuff about motors, titanium, custom pegs, triple clamps, blah blah blah.

Put all that factory equipment on a 15th place rider and he’s still going to only be a 15th place rider.
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8/10/2022 6:45pm Edited Date/Time 8/10/2022 6:47pm
TXDirt wrote:
I didn’t say it only takes talent. Obviously hard work is a key component. Take Deegan for example. Put him on a stock bike with his...
I didn’t say it only takes talent. Obviously hard work is a key component.

Take Deegan for example. Put him on a stock bike with his normal suspension and he’s getting top three atleast.

All this stuff about motors, titanium, custom pegs, triple clamps, blah blah blah.

Put all that factory equipment on a 15th place rider and he’s still going to only be a 15th place rider.
Well of course. I don't think anyone has ever said fancy "factory" parts makes someone better. It's the complete package that makes the difference.

And I disagree that Deegan on a stock bike with stock suspension is going to still be top 3. They spend hours fine tuning the bike and getting it set-up so he can ride hard and with confidence. He would have limited confidence on a bone stock bike and that greatly influences how hard and fast someone like Deegan can ride. You better believe his factory prepped bike gives him an advantage over the next factory guy, and the next factory guy and the next factory guy. He beat 4-5 other "factory" racers because of his talent and because of his bike and because of the countless hours he puts in doing motos... something your average Joe who is in school can't afford. Time and money are a huge advantage for guys like Deegan.
8/10/2022 7:23pm
Mr. Ted wrote:
What about hard work? How much can work replace talent? 10%, 15%, etc...
kripple428 wrote:
I believe Talent matters 0 percent if you are willing to put in the work. Anybody can become great at something if they really want it...
I believe Talent matters 0 percent if you are willing to put in the work. Anybody can become great at something if they really want it. Look at Carmichael that dude had very little natural talent on a bike. But his work ethic was insane and he would rather die than get beat so he worked his ass off and became the greatest of all time. Look at MJ he got cut from his sophomore varsity team and that lit a fire under his ass he didn’t have natural talent either because he was going to outwork EVERYBODY no matter how gnarly it was and he went on to become the greatest basketball player of all time by a long shot. You can have all the talent in the world but without the work ethic it takes to be at the top you won’t make it on the flip side you can have little to no talent but willing to bust your ass and out work everyone day in and day out and you can make up for that lack of talent.
Naw man, sorry, but this is just plain wrong. I was pretty fast, and I know for a fact I trained just as hard as most other pros of my time, but you won’t see my name in any record book under winner or series champ.

Carmichael had more talent than 98% of the other professional riders, his work ethic pushed him past the other 2%.
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TXDirt
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8/10/2022 8:09pm
TXDirt wrote:
I didn’t say it only takes talent. Obviously hard work is a key component. Take Deegan for example. Put him on a stock bike with his...
I didn’t say it only takes talent. Obviously hard work is a key component.

Take Deegan for example. Put him on a stock bike with his normal suspension and he’s getting top three atleast.

All this stuff about motors, titanium, custom pegs, triple clamps, blah blah blah.

Put all that factory equipment on a 15th place rider and he’s still going to only be a 15th place rider.
Well of course. I don't think anyone has ever said fancy "factory" parts makes someone better. It's the complete package that makes the difference. And I...
Well of course. I don't think anyone has ever said fancy "factory" parts makes someone better. It's the complete package that makes the difference.

And I disagree that Deegan on a stock bike with stock suspension is going to still be top 3. They spend hours fine tuning the bike and getting it set-up so he can ride hard and with confidence. He would have limited confidence on a bone stock bike and that greatly influences how hard and fast someone like Deegan can ride. You better believe his factory prepped bike gives him an advantage over the next factory guy, and the next factory guy and the next factory guy. He beat 4-5 other "factory" racers because of his talent and because of his bike and because of the countless hours he puts in doing motos... something your average Joe who is in school can't afford. Time and money are a huge advantage for guys like Deegan.
I said a stock bike with his own suspension. He will feel comfortable to go top three. Titanium bolts, motor, etc does not make him a top three rider. His talent does.

I’m not arguing that his factory bike doesn’t give him an advantage. It does.

This sport has always been 90% rider. 10% bike. Maybe even closer to 95% rider and 5% bike.

Too much credit given to having a factory bike. It’s factory level talent that you need.
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8/11/2022 2:49am
We lucky to be fans of a motorsport where 85 to 90% is human ability and the rest is machine, no other motosport offers this.

The key to this sport like all sports is talent of course but most importantly the mental, the riders are humans and are all different some might gain the mental supremacy by jerking off 3 days out of a race some need to have a certain color fender in front of them, some need a group of people they enjoy being around and some which are generally the champions it doesn't matter.

During my time in Motocross the guys who complain about their equipment the most are generally the worse or jealous people.
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Falcon
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8/12/2022 10:10am
Riders who are losing races by just a few seconds will win on a factory bike. Riders who circulate in 20th, 40 seconds off the leader would end up in 19th, 35 seconds off the leader.
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brimx153
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IE
8/12/2022 12:18pm
TXDirt wrote:
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc. Make no mistake…. TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or...
All this talk about factory motors, parts, titanium, etc etc.

Make no mistake….

TALENT is what gets you in the top 10. No special motor or special parts.

If you are in the top 10 you likely have access to just about everything for free or near free. Bikes, motors, suspension.

Special parts does not overcome TALENT.

You either got it or you don’t. And if you are top ten talent you are pretty well taken care of.

Change my mind….
I disagree that it only takes talent. Lots of guys with talent but no discipline, hard work and a lack of focus didn't amount to much...
I disagree that it only takes talent. Lots of guys with talent but no discipline, hard work and a lack of focus didn't amount to much. I won't name names, but we all know who the unrealized "talent" is in this sport.

Talent + discipline + work ethic + support + no major injuries = success in this sport. Having a "factory" prepped bike doesn't hurt.

Dungey is just one example of someone who didn't have remarkable talent as an amateur. He worked hard. He had great support. He never had any major injuries. He became a champion.
Dungey did have unbelievably corner speed. That is probably the most important talent in Motocross. Same as RC . Was unreal talented . Just people mistake talent for a pretty riding style . It takes a hell of a work ethic to win anything . So you definitely need both . But hate this saying that dungey and RC were not the most talented of guys . The hardest thing to learn is corner speed imo . RC won his first race . And nearly every race after that .
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