Deegan cutting the track in the supermini 1 moto 2 at the mini o's.

FWYT
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12/2/2020 8:32am
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MX114
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12/2/2020 8:43am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 8:43am
foreman52 wrote:
I’m not reading all these comments, but I actually don’t see what’s wrong here? Looks like he got off balance and went off the side of...
I’m not reading all these comments, but I actually don’t see what’s wrong here? Looks like he got off balance and went off the side of the track. He slowed down appropriately and than re-entered the track.
You nailed it! Maybe it’s a balance issue...like a hereditary thing in his genes or something. Cause his father Brian struggled with similar balance issues. In 1997 at the LA SX he fell right off the back of the bike at the checker flag. Very unfortunate
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FLmxer
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12/2/2020 8:47am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 1:58pm
In my personal opinion only. From where he got squirly and chopped the throttle he coasted to the turn and made the turn. it happens in about 1.4 seconds and has happened to thousands of people who race often.
Second view from the camera guy makes it a clear accident and happened so fast he coasted into the first turn. The kid is very respectful for the atmosphere, success and good fortune he was raised in. He also treats the younger kids that look up to him very well and imo it was an accident with not much of an option except a full stop.
Maybe a full stop and go if you get outside the banners could be the rule. If you have raced there its easy to get sideways and the corner was right there quick. Add adrenaline and split second situation. But who gives a shit what I think?
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FLmxer
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12/2/2020 8:56am
How about like a joker lane, stop and go or similar penalty? You are flagged during race and you can accept the penalty or keep racing and fight the penalty afterward if you believe you are in the right.
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The Shop

str8line
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12/2/2020 8:58am
It's disheartening to see how many people on here are ok with this.
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dkurtd
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12/2/2020 9:01am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 9:04am
foreman52 wrote:
I’m not reading all these comments, but I actually don’t see what’s wrong here? Looks like he got off balance and went off the side of...
I’m not reading all these comments, but I actually don’t see what’s wrong here? Looks like he got off balance and went off the side of the track. He slowed down appropriately and than re-entered the track.
MX114 wrote:
You nailed it! Maybe it’s a balance issue...like a hereditary thing in his genes or something. Cause his father Brian struggled with similar balance issues. In...
You nailed it! Maybe it’s a balance issue...like a hereditary thing in his genes or something. Cause his father Brian struggled with similar balance issues. In 1997 at the LA SX he fell right off the back of the bike at the checker flag. Very unfortunate
You're probably right, it is in his genes. The below is from PULP's interview with Brian and others about the Moto XXX team:

Deegan—“In ’98 I cut the track at Budds Creek, I was so pissed. I was in the top ten and my clutch lever came lose, I pulled in and Kenny had to tighten it. I was angry, I was back in around 15th and I just cut off a downhill to get back to where I was. I remember Duke coming over and saying I cut the track. I asked him if he saw it and he said no so I said there it is, I must not have (laughs).”

What's that old saying about the apple not falling far from the tree?
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js451
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12/2/2020 9:05am
Massive Haiden fan. This is a brain fart and the race officials should of had the balls to dock him and help him learn a lesson.

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12/2/2020 9:12am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
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12/2/2020 9:13am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 9:14am
For the guys saying I'm "stirring the pot" and "enought of the " I've heard". It looks like the protest was true. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/12/02/462910/s1200_20201202_061319.jpg[/img]
For the guys saying I'm "stirring the pot" and "enought of the " I've heard". It looks like the protest was true.

fourfourone
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12/2/2020 9:28am
it was joke relax....

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SoCalMX70
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12/2/2020 9:30am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 9:42am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see...
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
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ge217
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12/2/2020 10:15am
early wrote:
Seriously?
Deegans pay for the same spot every year. I didn’t go this year so I can’t say if they had the spot or not. I’m guessing the did or paid for a different one. Wyn wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize income like that. I don’t know if he advised anyone. But Deegan does pay for prime parking.
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12/2/2020 10:42am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see...
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
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12/2/2020 10:56am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see...
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a...
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
So if a rider makes a mistake, but doesn't gain an advantage, you would still want them to be penalized simply based on the fact they made a mistake?
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EngIceDave
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12/2/2020 11:00am
I don't think he really gained an advantage, he was likely on his way to a holeshot
He chopped the throttle when he went off
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str8line
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12/2/2020 11:06am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 11:13am
EngIceDave wrote:
I don't think he really gained an advantage, he was likely on his way to a holeshot
He chopped the throttle when he went off
Da fuq? He was off the track and cut the whole corner. He gained an advantage over slowing down and getting back on the race course. What is wrong with you people?
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12/2/2020 11:11am
This kid is going to have people hating him just because of his name. Grown ass adults are getting mad about a kids race, yes a kids race. Maybe if this was the Pro class, then maybe this could be somewhat serious, but then again they are also kids.
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DK23
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12/2/2020 11:14am
EngIceDave wrote:
I don't think he really gained an advantage, he was likely on his way to a holeshot
He chopped the throttle when he went off
Chopping the throttle instead of having to slow for Turn 1 with 39 other bikes around you, plus cutting ~50 yards off the distance, seems like an advantage to me.
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12/2/2020 11:15am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a...
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
So if a rider makes a mistake, but doesn't gain an advantage, you would still want them to be penalized simply based on the fact they...
So if a rider makes a mistake, but doesn't gain an advantage, you would still want them to be penalized simply based on the fact they made a mistake?
Sorry for not including the 'and gaining an advantage' in my analogy. Apparently that makes it too difficult to connect the dots.

In what world was this not gaining an advantage? If there was something keeping him on the track like haybales, banners, tires, or whatever else you would like, he would have either crashed or been in essentially last. A mistake to this magnitude should not allow you to lose no positions.
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12/2/2020 11:17am
I'm not voicing an opinion one way or the other but heres his position when he leaves the track vs. when he re-enters.


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12/2/2020 11:17am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see...
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a...
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
Chris didn't say that there shouldn't be a penalty. He said that is for the AMA to decide. He said say that the incident was an accident, which I believe is correct. As such, it will and should be treated differently than if it was intentional.


Your example makes a good analogy since the law would treat differently someone who accidentally hit a pedestrian, as opposed to someone who purposely drove their car towards someone and hit them.
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12/2/2020 11:27am
Jordan421 wrote:
This kid is going to have people hating him just because of his name. Grown ass adults are getting mad about a kids race, yes a...
This kid is going to have people hating him just because of his name. Grown ass adults are getting mad about a kids race, yes a kids race. Maybe if this was the Pro class, then maybe this could be somewhat serious, but then again they are also kids.
Not at all a hater. I'm a huge fan of the whole family and subscribe to all of their channels. I hope the kid makes it to the top of the sport and makes the most of the resources he was born into.

This was an amateur national and AMA recognized major event. We're not mad about a kids race. We're mad about the AMA (or promoter) continually not enforcing the rulebook with video evidence. People wonder why pros make the same mistakes (see: lanes cut in SX) after never being penalized during amateurs when it is time to learn the rules with less on the line than a professional championship. You enforce the rules at an amateur level, and I guarantee by the time these guys are racing pro they won't be cutting track.

I race Millville regularly, and guess what happens if I make a mistake down the straight and try to cut the corner rather than staying on track. I hit a fence and lose a lot more time than just letting off and ending wherever the start shakes out. If I somehow cut the track later, I guarantee our ref docs me mistake or not. No reason my local, mean nothing race should be held to higher standards than an amateur national.
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12/2/2020 11:34am
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see...
Just watched the video of it and no doubt he got pulled to the left when he hit the grass by accident. You can even see he slowed down and knew he messed up and looked over. 100% accidental in my eyes. Does it require a penalty? That’s for the AMA to decide not me but he definitely let off and it was a accident. Big difference if it was on purpose.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
I just watched it over a few times and didn’t realize he came out in the top 3 on the start. After watching it I think he definitely should of been penalized cause he didn’t really slow down enough and got a good start. If he had slowed up more and got a start like he should of gotten if there was banners there then I could see why they didn’t penalize him.
I’m really surprised they didn’t have banners there lining the start down to the first corner. Almost reminded me of when Chad Reed got that start by going on the grass in muddy Indiana race.
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12/2/2020 11:34am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period. Seriously, when did people get the notion that...
No, there is zero difference. An advantage gained from a mistake or a "mistake" should be penalized, period.

Seriously, when did people get the notion that accidents should absolve you of potential penalties? Makes no sense.

Fuck up, gain an advantage, get penalized, don't fuck up next time.

Case closed.
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a...
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
Chris didn't say that there shouldn't be a penalty. He said that is for the AMA to decide. He said say that the incident was an...
Chris didn't say that there shouldn't be a penalty. He said that is for the AMA to decide. He said say that the incident was an accident, which I believe is correct. As such, it will and should be treated differently than if it was intentional.


Your example makes a good analogy since the law would treat differently someone who accidentally hit a pedestrian, as opposed to someone who purposely drove their car towards someone and hit them.
You're right, they're handled differently. They should be since they are different circumstances, but both include some type of penalty.

I don't know the penalties per the rulebook off hand and won't pretend I do, but I would think there would be varying degrees of penalties like if he purposefully cut the track vs if it were due to a mistake ( DQ vs doc positions). Doing nothing is not the fair answer to all the competitors.

I'm done. Going back to lurking this one. Can't force others to see the same logic and I'm okay with that.
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yz133rider
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12/2/2020 11:36am
Seems to be people get confused on the not gain an advantage part.

Some consider gaining an advantage as : left the track in x position as long as you resume in x position or worse it isn’t an advantage.

Others say, you made a mistake, while you may have been in x position before the mistake, there’s no way you would have remained in x position if you didn’t cut the track and stay in it. If you had to actually suffer consequences for making a mistake you would have lost a number of spots. - thus you gained an advantage even if you re-entered in the same position you left the track in.

It’s two very different ways of looking at gained an advantage. I side with the second explanation, where as it seems the ama sides with the first. - sometimes, maybe depending on the person, altitude, barometric pressures, and time of the month.
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kage173
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12/2/2020 11:40am Edited Date/Time 12/2/2020 11:40am
EngIceDave wrote:
I don't think he really gained an advantage, he was likely on his way to a holeshot
He chopped the throttle when he went off
Man I'm learning so much from this thread. I always had this idea in my head that if I made a mistake and people passed me that it was my fault and I need to ride better to try to pass them back.

It never occurred to me that my mistake was an unfair advantage to others and that I just needed to cut the track and come back on wherever I thought I might have been if I hadn't made a mistake in the first place.

It's like a whole new world has opened up to me.
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yak651
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Appleton, WI US
Fantasy
12/2/2020 11:45am
I'm not voicing an opinion one way or the other but heres his position when he leaves the track vs. when he re-enters. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/12/02/463014/s1200_Leaves_Track.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/12/02/463015/s1200_Enters_Track.jpg[/img]
I'm not voicing an opinion one way or the other but heres his position when he leaves the track vs. when he re-enters.


I'm not voicing an opinion,,,but if you are saying that he came back on the track in 2nd instead of 1st it's a-ok, you should stick to not voicing your opinion...
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pbody
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12/2/2020 11:50am
My view = his right foot slips off the peg at about same time he hits the grassy edge. At that point I see little to no throttle being added.
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12/2/2020 11:51am
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a...
Sorry officer, when I accidently hit the guy walking across the street, it was only because I didn't see him. Honest mistake. Since it was a mistake, clearly I deserve no repercussions.

Common guys. How can you really say that a mistake doesn't deserve a penalty and truly believe that?
So if a rider makes a mistake, but doesn't gain an advantage, you would still want them to be penalized simply based on the fact they...
So if a rider makes a mistake, but doesn't gain an advantage, you would still want them to be penalized simply based on the fact they made a mistake?
Sorry for not including the 'and gaining an advantage' in my analogy. Apparently that makes it too difficult to connect the dots. In what world was...
Sorry for not including the 'and gaining an advantage' in my analogy. Apparently that makes it too difficult to connect the dots.

In what world was this not gaining an advantage? If there was something keeping him on the track like haybales, banners, tires, or whatever else you would like, he would have either crashed or been in essentially last. A mistake to this magnitude should not allow you to lose no positions.
Easy there, Chief. I was just pointing out your lazy ass logic. I had no problem following, which is why I pointed out the inaccuracy of comparing one situation with a safe guard that allows for no penalization (yanno a central aspect of this thread/topic and what the decision itself turns on) to an example that didn't include the same type of safe guard.

Should I break that down further, or can you connect the dots?
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dkurtd
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12/2/2020 11:51am
EngIceDave wrote:
I don't think he really gained an advantage, he was likely on his way to a holeshot
He chopped the throttle when he went off
You obviously have been drinking to much Engine Ice, it has clouded your eyesight and judgement.
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