Budds Creek law suit

Indy mxer
Posts
1839
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL US
3/16/2020 3:56am
Timo_2824 wrote:
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the...
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the mid 80's for adjusted price of $7000. My son was born in 2016 and the bill sent to insurance was $26,000 after we paid the $2000.00 remaining on our deductible, The US system started breaking in the 70's and has taken off like a rocket. I wonder how much J-Mart had to payout for his back surgeries.
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the...
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the US until the for profit companies started to get really greedy. When your child is very sick or your leg bone is sticking out of your skin, it is difficult to have a fair negotiation between buyer and supplier as with other services in a market based system. At the same time, the current administration is reducing consumer protection and the public needs protection from greedy insurance companies and healthcare providers.

I am a capitalist and believe that market systems should be supported as far as possible with limited government involvement, but should always look to protect consumers from the shortcomings of a market system which can happen easily if for-profit entities have too much market power relative to the consumers. The government is not perfect, but there are certain areas that it can do better than most market systems such as national infrastructure, military/ defense, and social security which includes both retirement, employment, and medical benefits.

Right now we have a reverse-Robin Hood type system where they rob from the poor and give to the rich supported by the current corrupt political system. They will try to convince you that what every other develop country has been doing successfully for decades will result in the collapse of the US system, loss of choice, skyrocketing costs and reduced access and quality. Shame on you if you believe it. The current system is already resulting in reduced choice with the in/out of network costs, skyrocketing costs are happening as the private insurance companies jack up premiums and shift costs to you in the form of increased copays and coinsurance, deductibles are climbing higher and higher, and this results in reduced access and quality. Physicians are getting squeezed too by the insurance companies so they try to see more patients in a given hour and that impacts quality of care. The establishment that is promoting this bad state of affairs will mix up the nuances of communism and socialism to scare you that your freedom is being taken away, but it couldn't be further from the truth. We have had social security programs for a long time in a democratic and free united states... ever since the creation of Medicare and you should look at national health insurance for all as an extension of a program that most people in the US already support.

Also remember that private hospitals and physicians, as well as supplementary private health insurance, with free choice to chose any doctor you prefer, can still exist within a national health insurance system, because that is the way it already works in most other developed countries. In fact you will have more choice in choosing your doctor and hospital because we won't have anymore of this in-network/ out of network bullshit. We will have a lot less angry people in the US if healthcare is one less thing that we don't have to worry about personally bankrupting us.
Lots to debate here. If what Canada has, which is what most people describe, no thanks. Also, you think doctors get squeezed by insurance companies? Medicare squeezes even more. And they even admit under national healthcare reimbursements to doctors and hospitals will be reduced even more. That should improve quality.
Also, be prepared for taxes to go way up, they have to to pay for it.

As I said, primary care is good under those plans. Anything beyond that is much harder to get and you have to wait. It's not the be all, end all some make it out to be. I just don't want my government running my healthcare.

Many people in this country would prefer to keep their private plans. we need to find a way to satisfy that segment and also come up with a medicare type plan for the people who don't have access to good insurance.
5
5
slipdog
Posts
10055
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Nor Cal, CA US
3/16/2020 5:38am
Still not letting it go, eh?
3
Zacka 161
Posts
1627
Joined
7/30/2009
Location
Mount Waverley, VIC AU
3/16/2020 5:48am
slipdog wrote:
Still not letting it go, eh?
People can continue to post total bullshit and not get called out... Indy mxer responds to a well considered and knowledgable post with the same debunked total bullshit and I get called out...

2
13
texasmoto423
Posts
17
Joined
2/23/2020
Location
Granbury, TX US
3/16/2020 6:05am
slipdog wrote:
Still not letting it go, eh?
Zacka 161 wrote:
People can continue to post total bullshit and not get called out... Indy mxer responds to a well considered and knowledgable post with the same debunked...
People can continue to post total bullshit and not get called out... Indy mxer responds to a well considered and knowledgable post with the same debunked total bullshit and I get called out...

Can’t talk about real shit on vital Mx. sorry bud.
8
1

The Shop

Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2102
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
3/16/2020 9:44am
Timo_2824 wrote:
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the...
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the mid 80's for adjusted price of $7000. My son was born in 2016 and the bill sent to insurance was $26,000 after we paid the $2000.00 remaining on our deductible, The US system started breaking in the 70's and has taken off like a rocket. I wonder how much J-Mart had to payout for his back surgeries.
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the...
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the US until the for profit companies started to get really greedy. When your child is very sick or your leg bone is sticking out of your skin, it is difficult to have a fair negotiation between buyer and supplier as with other services in a market based system. At the same time, the current administration is reducing consumer protection and the public needs protection from greedy insurance companies and healthcare providers.

I am a capitalist and believe that market systems should be supported as far as possible with limited government involvement, but should always look to protect consumers from the shortcomings of a market system which can happen easily if for-profit entities have too much market power relative to the consumers. The government is not perfect, but there are certain areas that it can do better than most market systems such as national infrastructure, military/ defense, and social security which includes both retirement, employment, and medical benefits.

Right now we have a reverse-Robin Hood type system where they rob from the poor and give to the rich supported by the current corrupt political system. They will try to convince you that what every other develop country has been doing successfully for decades will result in the collapse of the US system, loss of choice, skyrocketing costs and reduced access and quality. Shame on you if you believe it. The current system is already resulting in reduced choice with the in/out of network costs, skyrocketing costs are happening as the private insurance companies jack up premiums and shift costs to you in the form of increased copays and coinsurance, deductibles are climbing higher and higher, and this results in reduced access and quality. Physicians are getting squeezed too by the insurance companies so they try to see more patients in a given hour and that impacts quality of care. The establishment that is promoting this bad state of affairs will mix up the nuances of communism and socialism to scare you that your freedom is being taken away, but it couldn't be further from the truth. We have had social security programs for a long time in a democratic and free united states... ever since the creation of Medicare and you should look at national health insurance for all as an extension of a program that most people in the US already support.

Also remember that private hospitals and physicians, as well as supplementary private health insurance, with free choice to chose any doctor you prefer, can still exist within a national health insurance system, because that is the way it already works in most other developed countries. In fact you will have more choice in choosing your doctor and hospital because we won't have anymore of this in-network/ out of network bullshit. We will have a lot less angry people in the US if healthcare is one less thing that we don't have to worry about personally bankrupting us.
Indy mxer wrote:
Lots to debate here. If what Canada has, which is what most people describe, no thanks. Also, you think doctors get squeezed by insurance companies? Medicare...
Lots to debate here. If what Canada has, which is what most people describe, no thanks. Also, you think doctors get squeezed by insurance companies? Medicare squeezes even more. And they even admit under national healthcare reimbursements to doctors and hospitals will be reduced even more. That should improve quality.
Also, be prepared for taxes to go way up, they have to to pay for it.

As I said, primary care is good under those plans. Anything beyond that is much harder to get and you have to wait. It's not the be all, end all some make it out to be. I just don't want my government running my healthcare.

Many people in this country would prefer to keep their private plans. we need to find a way to satisfy that segment and also come up with a medicare type plan for the people who don't have access to good insurance.
I see you are not ready for the healthy debate, though.. you have already made up your mind. I say that because you went straight to Canada when I just told you there are so many other systems that easily cover all your concerns. That said, Canada is not as bad as many make it out to be and saying things like well I know a colleague that was born in Canada and he says it sucks. Have a real discussion with a cross section of Canadians and many would be horrified to give up what they have for what we have now in the US. Anyway, there are even better national systems out there, but I suppose you don't wont to talk about those. If you did, you would ask me questions about them and not go the the standard Canada fake news BS.

Second clue you don't want to have a real discussion; "taxes will go way up". That's a no brainer, it is a government run program, but your out of pocket expenses will go WAY down. On a net basis, you will have more money in your pocket on a net basis even with higher taxes. There was a recent statement of 20 leading US economist that try to explain this to people. Like most people i want more money in my pocket at the end of the day and would not want someone like you running my business who cannot see the whole picture. This is not speculation, there has been so much data out there for years and Americans already pay more than double what other major countries pay and have poorer morbidity and mortality statistics to boot. Embarassing. Drugs now cost 3-5X higher in the US than in these countries.. for the same drug. We know what the US pays and we know what other countries pay for the same thing.. no comparison.

And there you go with another fallacy that any single payer system will require long waits for care.. that can be the case for non-urgent care in some of the less desirable systems, but I just told you there are plenty of systems in other countries where that is not the case at all.. I say this not only an expert on country systems, but I just told you that in Japan, I could see a doctor and get surgery much faster than I can in the US. Much faster. Appointments can be scheduled out several months to see a specialist in the US these days. Many people even with health insurance in the US forgo needed surgery because of the massive copays and coinsurance in the US and this is growing as insurance companies shift costs to patients. This would not happen in these other countries. So another of your points debunked.

Yes, Medicare does put a lot of pressure on doctors and you have to look at the history of Medicare.. it once was a small part of our healthcare system and now it is huge. Any new system really requires a renegotiation of fees with the physicians' association as a key stakeholder. I think people just say "expanded medicare" to help people like you who are afraid of things they don't know or understand comprehend what it may look like. There are plenty of national healthcare systems where physicians remain the highest paid profession by far. In contrast, I have many physician friends that have given up practicing in the clinic because they couldn't make enough money treating patients the way they felt patients should be treated. We have many unscrupulous physicians these days doing well financially but not taking good care of their patients.

Most countries with national health insurance still offer private insurance options. I am quite confident that when "sticks in the mud" like yourself that fear the unknown and unfamiliar, will be scrambling to get onto the national programs once they see how happy their friends and colleagues are.

I did not write all the above for you, as I am pretty sure you are a wasted cause since you wont absorb any facts or information from people who have direct, real life experience. You only deflected the facts and info. I wrote all the above for those that may read what you wrote and be misled or have their unsubstantiated fears reinforced.
8
13
dkurtd
Posts
1113
Joined
4/15/2018
Location
TN US
3/16/2020 10:03am
To the Dumbgeon.
6
Indy mxer
Posts
1839
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL US
3/16/2020 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2020 12:09pm
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the...
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the US until the for profit companies started to get really greedy. When your child is very sick or your leg bone is sticking out of your skin, it is difficult to have a fair negotiation between buyer and supplier as with other services in a market based system. At the same time, the current administration is reducing consumer protection and the public needs protection from greedy insurance companies and healthcare providers.

I am a capitalist and believe that market systems should be supported as far as possible with limited government involvement, but should always look to protect consumers from the shortcomings of a market system which can happen easily if for-profit entities have too much market power relative to the consumers. The government is not perfect, but there are certain areas that it can do better than most market systems such as national infrastructure, military/ defense, and social security which includes both retirement, employment, and medical benefits.

Right now we have a reverse-Robin Hood type system where they rob from the poor and give to the rich supported by the current corrupt political system. They will try to convince you that what every other develop country has been doing successfully for decades will result in the collapse of the US system, loss of choice, skyrocketing costs and reduced access and quality. Shame on you if you believe it. The current system is already resulting in reduced choice with the in/out of network costs, skyrocketing costs are happening as the private insurance companies jack up premiums and shift costs to you in the form of increased copays and coinsurance, deductibles are climbing higher and higher, and this results in reduced access and quality. Physicians are getting squeezed too by the insurance companies so they try to see more patients in a given hour and that impacts quality of care. The establishment that is promoting this bad state of affairs will mix up the nuances of communism and socialism to scare you that your freedom is being taken away, but it couldn't be further from the truth. We have had social security programs for a long time in a democratic and free united states... ever since the creation of Medicare and you should look at national health insurance for all as an extension of a program that most people in the US already support.

Also remember that private hospitals and physicians, as well as supplementary private health insurance, with free choice to chose any doctor you prefer, can still exist within a national health insurance system, because that is the way it already works in most other developed countries. In fact you will have more choice in choosing your doctor and hospital because we won't have anymore of this in-network/ out of network bullshit. We will have a lot less angry people in the US if healthcare is one less thing that we don't have to worry about personally bankrupting us.
Indy mxer wrote:
Lots to debate here. If what Canada has, which is what most people describe, no thanks. Also, you think doctors get squeezed by insurance companies? Medicare...
Lots to debate here. If what Canada has, which is what most people describe, no thanks. Also, you think doctors get squeezed by insurance companies? Medicare squeezes even more. And they even admit under national healthcare reimbursements to doctors and hospitals will be reduced even more. That should improve quality.
Also, be prepared for taxes to go way up, they have to to pay for it.

As I said, primary care is good under those plans. Anything beyond that is much harder to get and you have to wait. It's not the be all, end all some make it out to be. I just don't want my government running my healthcare.

Many people in this country would prefer to keep their private plans. we need to find a way to satisfy that segment and also come up with a medicare type plan for the people who don't have access to good insurance.
I see you are not ready for the healthy debate, though.. you have already made up your mind. I say that because you went straight to...
I see you are not ready for the healthy debate, though.. you have already made up your mind. I say that because you went straight to Canada when I just told you there are so many other systems that easily cover all your concerns. That said, Canada is not as bad as many make it out to be and saying things like well I know a colleague that was born in Canada and he says it sucks. Have a real discussion with a cross section of Canadians and many would be horrified to give up what they have for what we have now in the US. Anyway, there are even better national systems out there, but I suppose you don't wont to talk about those. If you did, you would ask me questions about them and not go the the standard Canada fake news BS.

Second clue you don't want to have a real discussion; "taxes will go way up". That's a no brainer, it is a government run program, but your out of pocket expenses will go WAY down. On a net basis, you will have more money in your pocket on a net basis even with higher taxes. There was a recent statement of 20 leading US economist that try to explain this to people. Like most people i want more money in my pocket at the end of the day and would not want someone like you running my business who cannot see the whole picture. This is not speculation, there has been so much data out there for years and Americans already pay more than double what other major countries pay and have poorer morbidity and mortality statistics to boot. Embarassing. Drugs now cost 3-5X higher in the US than in these countries.. for the same drug. We know what the US pays and we know what other countries pay for the same thing.. no comparison.

And there you go with another fallacy that any single payer system will require long waits for care.. that can be the case for non-urgent care in some of the less desirable systems, but I just told you there are plenty of systems in other countries where that is not the case at all.. I say this not only an expert on country systems, but I just told you that in Japan, I could see a doctor and get surgery much faster than I can in the US. Much faster. Appointments can be scheduled out several months to see a specialist in the US these days. Many people even with health insurance in the US forgo needed surgery because of the massive copays and coinsurance in the US and this is growing as insurance companies shift costs to patients. This would not happen in these other countries. So another of your points debunked.

Yes, Medicare does put a lot of pressure on doctors and you have to look at the history of Medicare.. it once was a small part of our healthcare system and now it is huge. Any new system really requires a renegotiation of fees with the physicians' association as a key stakeholder. I think people just say "expanded medicare" to help people like you who are afraid of things they don't know or understand comprehend what it may look like. There are plenty of national healthcare systems where physicians remain the highest paid profession by far. In contrast, I have many physician friends that have given up practicing in the clinic because they couldn't make enough money treating patients the way they felt patients should be treated. We have many unscrupulous physicians these days doing well financially but not taking good care of their patients.

Most countries with national health insurance still offer private insurance options. I am quite confident that when "sticks in the mud" like yourself that fear the unknown and unfamiliar, will be scrambling to get onto the national programs once they see how happy their friends and colleagues are.

I did not write all the above for you, as I am pretty sure you are a wasted cause since you wont absorb any facts or information from people who have direct, real life experience. You only deflected the facts and info. I wrote all the above for those that may read what you wrote and be misled or have their unsubstantiated fears reinforced.
Your post is very condescending and that says a lot about you.
I am all for real debate. And I have read a lot about socialized medicine. I stand by my statement that what you propose isn't without it's drawbacks.
I use Canada because I have a colleague who was born and raised there and it's often held up as an example. Btw, he didn't say it was bad, just has some serious drawacks. As a matter of fact he liked it for the most part.

Japan geographically is much smaller than the US with about 1/3 the population, so is easier to manage.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it sucks!
These are facts, it's not free, far from it. Primary care is excellent, but things like mri's and non emergency surgery often have very long waits. And if these public healthcare plans work so well, why would you still need private insurance?

I just don't think our government can run healthcare for 330 million people. Look at the VA. How's that working out?
Plus, Medicare is full of waste and fraud.

I'd love to see a real debate where the choice isn't simply private or public.
I think there's got to be a better way. I'm happy with what I have, but for sure it could be better.

Finally, if we don't get a handle the fact that we're one of the most obese countries in the world, it won't matter.
Bottom line is a large part of our population is obese, sedentary and doesn't take care of themselves. That's the biggest driver behind our healthcare costs. We should reward good behavior like we do with life insurance.
1
7
disbanded
Posts
6886
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Location
Evergreen, CO US
3/16/2020 7:19pm
Clip him!
1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2102
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7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
3/16/2020 8:01pm
Indy, I realize my response was harsh and consciously so. There was no healthy debate here and there never could be with you deflecting facts and just digging in deeper on your initial position when faced with contradictory info. I try the diplomatic approach to explaining the facts.. and i am talking hard facts supported by data/ evidence and not my opinion. Believe it or not, how I just responded to you is how I now respond to many close friends and relatives who share the same social phenomenon that some call " cognitive dissonance". I just call it pigheadedness.

It just happened to me the other day, a close friend of 16 years who knows my background. He is an accomplished man and former mayor of my city, but has never been to another country. I didn't raise the issue, but he started going off about something he heard on Fox and how social medical insurance would destroy the "best healthcare system in the world" and all the problems with the systems in other countries. He is on Medicare by the way. When I reminded him that he knows perfectly well what my job was for the last 30 years, he hesitated for a moment probably feeling pretty stupid, but the emotion got the best of him and he again started with stating all this crazy, totally false info with no qualifications or evidence whatsoever. I told him he was making irrational statements and sounding like an ignorant ass.

You seem to feel you have enough expertise by what ever you have read about social insurance, but it was pretty obvious you not only knew little, but you didn't care to learn or hear the evidence.

I cannot fathom your point about Japan having a much smaller landmass and population size in this age of modern technology. You do know the Japan has the 2nd biggest population of any developed country after the US, right? 330M vs 127M people.. bigger than the populations of the UK and France combined. It is a pretty big population in a country the size of California. China has a population of 1.4 billion people and they introduced national health insurance some years ago in a pretty dam big country, and a developing country at that. So is this your argument, that the US cannot do what other countries are already doing successfully for years because we have too big a population and too big of a land mass?? Actually it is pretty clear you do not know what is going on in other countries or that you even care.

Zacka could have explained to you his first hand experience how the Australian system works and it should be quite enlightening, but you obviously have no interest in enlightenment. I should never criticize anyone in today's busy society for not being aware of other healthcare systems or even all the intricacies of their own very complex system. I am only aware because of my job for 30 years in a major global corporation. But I can't hold back on what is "willful ignorance".. you have an unqualified opinion and no amount of data, evidence or facts is going to shake you from it. Willful ignorance is far more serious than a person who has a misinformed opinion due to lack of facts, but wiling to listen, ask questions, and learn.

Sorry from diverging so much from the OP's topic and to those who don't find this discussion interesting, but as motocross riders, we unfortunately use the healthcare system more than the average citizen so we should have a very strong interest.
3
3
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2102
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ US
3/16/2020 9:23pm
What makes you think I don't understand there are winners and losers.. I said that myself in one of my first posts in this thread, so you just jumped to a conclusion..and why would you think I wouldn't understand this after 30 years in big industry that was trying to convince you that was most profitable for them was best for you too (not!). I was the front line bad guy in the system, Joe, and happy to retire last year since i didn't like what I was witnessing. I do hope you are talking about what is best for the average american, "Average Joe".. as opposed to private companies, physicians, the extreme rich who don't need insurance.. yes, of course there are other stakeholders that benefit from the status. Yes there are are some trade-offs... or at least there were until the US system really started to get out of control.

Since you consider us naive and yourself not, please impress us with your credentials and experience in healthcare policy and experience in the many types of systems. I am looking forward to data, facts, personal experience with national health insurance and your work in this area. You do really seem to enjoy paying many times what other major countries pay for healthcare, more and more reduced access as I explained above, and falling morbidity and mortality stats. I don't understand why, perhaps you can eloquently elaborate.

I don't follow you re "based on your voting record".

This thread is definitely going to get shut down soon and no big deal as it wont go anywhere useful anyway. People only need opinion to be an expert, facts are irrelevant Cognitive dissonance is alive and well in the US and Oak Creek.
5
KDXGarage
Posts
2561
Joined
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Location
AL US
3/16/2020 9:33pm
This thread is amazing. There are a great number of people who have never been to Budd's Creek, never plan to watch an event at Budd's Creek or plan to ride / race at Budd's Creek. Can you all just go find somewhere else to argue about "other stuff" than what this thread is supposed to be about?

13
Indy mxer
Posts
1839
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Location
The Villages, FL US
3/17/2020 1:40pm
Well said!
1
2
MaxPower
Posts
2696
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Location
NJ US
8/30/2020 6:49am
I wonder if a suit could be open for child abuse. The parents should have protected the kid from such dangers.
4
omalley
Posts
1528
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Location
Snohomish, WA US
8/30/2020 7:14am
MaxPower wrote:
I wonder if a suit could be open for child abuse. The parents should have protected the kid from such dangers.
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court, claiming that moto was child abuse with the injury as evidence. The court ruled that if he takes his kid to a track again, he could lose custody...
1
5
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
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Location
Sydney AU
8/30/2020 7:21am
MaxPower wrote:
I wonder if a suit could be open for child abuse. The parents should have protected the kid from such dangers.
omalley wrote:
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court...
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court, claiming that moto was child abuse with the injury as evidence. The court ruled that if he takes his kid to a track again, he could lose custody...
Wtf
6
1
omalley
Posts
1528
Joined
7/27/2016
Location
Snohomish, WA US
8/30/2020 8:03am
MaxPower wrote:
I wonder if a suit could be open for child abuse. The parents should have protected the kid from such dangers.
omalley wrote:
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court...
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court, claiming that moto was child abuse with the injury as evidence. The court ruled that if he takes his kid to a track again, he could lose custody...
Crush wrote:
Wtf
Exactly. Vindictive bitch doesn’t even break the surface with her.
1
1
hogkiller
Posts
189
Joined
8/23/2014
Location
champion, AB CA
8/30/2020 8:43am
wisey wrote:
I just got a quote to cut the cancer out of my face. The insurance quote that is set by the insurance company is $2000. I...
I just got a quote to cut the cancer out of my face. The insurance quote that is set by the insurance company is $2000. I have a $4000 deductible. The cash price, not going through insurance, is $1000.
Rooster wrote:
In Canada, like many other nations with publicly funded healthcare, there's no insurance company markup (and no deductible). Our admin costs for our healthcare system come...
In Canada, like many other nations with publicly funded healthcare, there's no insurance company markup (and no deductible). Our admin costs for our healthcare system come in right around 8% of total costs, which is excellent compared to the US system.

But we pay "sin" taxes on things like tobacco and alcohol. The additional taxes find their way to subsidizing our healthcare costs.

So you could say you're rewarded for leading a healthy lifestyle, in that you pay less tax. If you're going to drink a flat or a fifth a day and smoke two packs, your going to pay more in tax help cover the cost of your unhealthy choices down the road.
Indy mxer wrote:
You pay for healthcare in more ways than one. Your sales tax is 15% in most places when you add up state and national sales tax...
You pay for healthcare in more ways than one. Your sales tax is 15% in most places when you add up state and national sales tax. Plus your income tax is much higher than ours. Not to mention the sin taxes. And the government runs your healthcare.
All good if you just need a regular doctor visit. Good luck if you need a test like an mri and/or surgery. Guy I work with is born and raised in Canada. Blew out his knee playing softball. Waited 6 months for an mri and 5 months more for surgery. If I had that happen here I could have the mri and surgery in the same week.

That said, our system needs work for sure. But I do believe we have some of the best doctors in the world.
there is no sales tax in Alberta get your facts right before you post,,,,,,,,
1
7
Tuna
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1580
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Location
CA
8/30/2020 9:00am
Rooster wrote:
In Canada, like many other nations with publicly funded healthcare, there's no insurance company markup (and no deductible). Our admin costs for our healthcare system come...
In Canada, like many other nations with publicly funded healthcare, there's no insurance company markup (and no deductible). Our admin costs for our healthcare system come in right around 8% of total costs, which is excellent compared to the US system.

But we pay "sin" taxes on things like tobacco and alcohol. The additional taxes find their way to subsidizing our healthcare costs.

So you could say you're rewarded for leading a healthy lifestyle, in that you pay less tax. If you're going to drink a flat or a fifth a day and smoke two packs, your going to pay more in tax help cover the cost of your unhealthy choices down the road.
Indy mxer wrote:
You pay for healthcare in more ways than one. Your sales tax is 15% in most places when you add up state and national sales tax...
You pay for healthcare in more ways than one. Your sales tax is 15% in most places when you add up state and national sales tax. Plus your income tax is much higher than ours. Not to mention the sin taxes. And the government runs your healthcare.
All good if you just need a regular doctor visit. Good luck if you need a test like an mri and/or surgery. Guy I work with is born and raised in Canada. Blew out his knee playing softball. Waited 6 months for an mri and 5 months more for surgery. If I had that happen here I could have the mri and surgery in the same week.

That said, our system needs work for sure. But I do believe we have some of the best doctors in the world.
hogkiller wrote:
there is no sales tax in Alberta get your facts right before you post,,,,,,,,
Read what he said before you post. He said most places. Can’t imagine Alberta is going to continue the luxury of no sales tax because the province never bothered to set up a fund like Norway for instance. Pretty soon they will be opening up their pockets like the rest of the country with O&G going down the shitter and no real diversification back up plan.
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bents
Posts
3374
Joined
12/31/2009
Location
CA
Fantasy
8/30/2020 1:44pm
As a proud Canadian, perhaps the biggest difference is that we don't have to worry about making choices like going without health insurance so I can pay for other mandatory living expenses (mortgage/rent/food/car and insurance, etc). Or going bankrupt for that matter. Sure we have long waits for certain surgeries but if you need something, you will get it ASAP. And, it is just the right thing to do for one's citizens-health care should be universal, for any developed country, IMHO. The US has the money, but not the political will.
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16
byke
Posts
2951
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
8/30/2020 1:59pm
omalley wrote:
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court...
Not sure about a suit, but I have a buddy whose son hurt himself riding, and his ex was successful in dragging him back to court, claiming that moto was child abuse with the injury as evidence. The court ruled that if he takes his kid to a track again, he could lose custody...
Crush wrote:
Wtf
omalley wrote:
Exactly. Vindictive bitch doesn’t even break the surface with her.
Don't forget that the "vindictive bitch" also includes the system which supported her ridiculous assertion. She's only 1% of the problem, the 99% is the system which allows legitimacy to those kind of ideas.
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omalley
Posts
1528
Joined
7/27/2016
Location
Snohomish, WA US
8/30/2020 4:20pm
Crush wrote:
Wtf
omalley wrote:
Exactly. Vindictive bitch doesn’t even break the surface with her.
byke wrote:
Don't forget that the "vindictive bitch" also includes the system which supported her ridiculous assertion. She's only 1% of the problem, the 99% is the system...
Don't forget that the "vindictive bitch" also includes the system which supported her ridiculous assertion. She's only 1% of the problem, the 99% is the system which allows legitimacy to those kind of ideas.
Oh absolutely. Agree 100%.
1
MXMattii
Posts
5014
Joined
3/6/2010
Location
BE
8/30/2020 4:51pm
bents wrote:
As a proud Canadian, perhaps the biggest difference is that we don't have to worry about making choices like going without health insurance so I can...
As a proud Canadian, perhaps the biggest difference is that we don't have to worry about making choices like going without health insurance so I can pay for other mandatory living expenses (mortgage/rent/food/car and insurance, etc). Or going bankrupt for that matter. Sure we have long waits for certain surgeries but if you need something, you will get it ASAP. And, it is just the right thing to do for one's citizens-health care should be universal, for any developed country, IMHO. The US has the money, but not the political will.
Its sad that you're right on the money. There are thousands and thousands of stories from Americans who where wealthy till they got sick or broke their back. Some of them got saved by their popularity and a "GoFundMe" page. Others got drawn into poverty.

Belgium seems like a real mess sometimes but being disabled as I am, I'm thankful for the health insurance we've get from the moment we're born. It's a pretty complex system so I won't start explaining.
5
sandtrack315
Posts
2829
Joined
7/19/2013
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
8/30/2020 4:53pm
I’m not seeing any information about Budds Creek, which has been great to ride lately.
1
sf702/410
Posts
213
Joined
5/27/2020
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
8/30/2020 5:49pm
Reading stuff like this is what made me stop having any desire to tell people where I actually rode, or invite people to ride when I had places back east.

If you are doing to swing a leg over a dirtbike you better have some integrity and self responsibility. Shit is weak
5
8/30/2020 6:10pm
Relative to the poor kid who was hurt, if his injuries are that serious I can pretty well guarantee that he will be suing the track, whether he has insurance or not. And I can also guarantee that, had this incident occurred in Canada, the same action would be taken. Even up there, the cost of care in the event of a catastrophic injury is not fully absorbed by the government and immediately the affected people/agencies start looking around for someone to pay.

As an example, at a race north of the border a couple decades ago, some spectator kids were fooling around and decided to crawl under the lip of a drop-way jump. A rider crashed on the approach, the bike cartwheeled toward the kid and a footpeg embedded itself in the kid's temple. Instant vegetative state. It turned out the kid was a "troubled child" and his family wanted nothing to do with his care, so the state took over. The state didn't want to cover all these costs either (lifetime, full time care is staggeringly expensive in any jurisdiction) so, whether it was fair or not, the track was sued in the kid's name. The litigation went on for years, but eventually, the track lost. Waivers, idiocy, assumption of risk, etc. - none of these are as important as figuring out an "equitable" way to address this kid's needs. Whether the track was insured or not was never the issue, as it is against the rules to name an insurance company in such litigation. But, as I learned from a judge buddy over beers a few years later, everyone implicitly knows that there is insurance coverage and, in the event of these major losses, the judge will look for the party best able to address the loss. And that party will preferably not be society as a whole, so the track gets to wear the damage.

These issues arise in lots of "risky" sports, and ski hills are getting a lot of attention lately. Check out some hill's waivers - they can be a couple pages long with a spot for your lawyer to sign off as well. And their ass is still not completely covered.

And, as a result, the lawsuits keep coming...
3
8/30/2020 6:20pm
hogkiller wrote:
there is no sales tax in Alberta get your facts right before you post,,,,,,,,
Speaking for yourself? Alberta has a 5% sales tax Laughing
2
hubbardmx50
Posts
2781
Joined
11/17/2016
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
8/30/2020 8:21pm
You can't beat a dead horse. Healthcare in the US is a complete mess and we're well aware of it. We don't need Canadians and Australians to explain that to us. Your guys' countries have completely different demographics and politics than we do. Anyways, whatever happened with this lawsuit? If you guys remember, that's what this thread was about before it became a Canadian vs. American healthcare debate.
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2
8tensolutions
Posts
3333
Joined
11/15/2009
Location
Salt Lake City, UT US
8/30/2020 9:42pm
hogkiller wrote:
there is no sales tax in Alberta get your facts right before you post,,,,,,,,
tesstickle wrote:
Speaking for yourself? Alberta has a 5% sales tax Laughing
Yep....and what's the income tax rate?
8/31/2020 6:46am
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the...
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the US until the for profit companies started to get really greedy. When your child is very sick or your leg bone is sticking out of your skin, it is difficult to have a fair negotiation between buyer and supplier as with other services in a market based system. At the same time, the current administration is reducing consumer protection and the public needs protection from greedy insurance companies and healthcare providers.

I am a capitalist and believe that market systems should be supported as far as possible with limited government involvement, but should always look to protect consumers from the shortcomings of a market system which can happen easily if for-profit entities have too much market power relative to the consumers. The government is not perfect, but there are certain areas that it can do better than most market systems such as national infrastructure, military/ defense, and social security which includes both retirement, employment, and medical benefits.

Right now we have a reverse-Robin Hood type system where they rob from the poor and give to the rich supported by the current corrupt political system. They will try to convince you that what every other develop country has been doing successfully for decades will result in the collapse of the US system, loss of choice, skyrocketing costs and reduced access and quality. Shame on you if you believe it. The current system is already resulting in reduced choice with the in/out of network costs, skyrocketing costs are happening as the private insurance companies jack up premiums and shift costs to you in the form of increased copays and coinsurance, deductibles are climbing higher and higher, and this results in reduced access and quality. Physicians are getting squeezed too by the insurance companies so they try to see more patients in a given hour and that impacts quality of care. The establishment that is promoting this bad state of affairs will mix up the nuances of communism and socialism to scare you that your freedom is being taken away, but it couldn't be further from the truth. We have had social security programs for a long time in a democratic and free united states... ever since the creation of Medicare and you should look at national health insurance for all as an extension of a program that most people in the US already support.

Also remember that private hospitals and physicians, as well as supplementary private health insurance, with free choice to chose any doctor you prefer, can still exist within a national health insurance system, because that is the way it already works in most other developed countries. In fact you will have more choice in choosing your doctor and hospital because we won't have anymore of this in-network/ out of network bullshit. We will have a lot less angry people in the US if healthcare is one less thing that we don't have to worry about personally bankrupting us.
Great post.
3
3
8/31/2020 9:07am
Timo_2824 wrote:
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the...
I'm going to throw it out there, my dad was born in 1960 for the adjusted for inflation cost of $800. I was born in the mid 80's for adjusted price of $7000. My son was born in 2016 and the bill sent to insurance was $26,000 after we paid the $2000.00 remaining on our deductible, The US system started breaking in the 70's and has taken off like a rocket. I wonder how much J-Mart had to payout for his back surgeries.
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the...
This is a good example of how a market based system doesn't work well in the case of healthcare.. it worked for a while in the US until the for profit companies started to get really greedy. When your child is very sick or your leg bone is sticking out of your skin, it is difficult to have a fair negotiation between buyer and supplier as with other services in a market based system. At the same time, the current administration is reducing consumer protection and the public needs protection from greedy insurance companies and healthcare providers.

I am a capitalist and believe that market systems should be supported as far as possible with limited government involvement, but should always look to protect consumers from the shortcomings of a market system which can happen easily if for-profit entities have too much market power relative to the consumers. The government is not perfect, but there are certain areas that it can do better than most market systems such as national infrastructure, military/ defense, and social security which includes both retirement, employment, and medical benefits.

Right now we have a reverse-Robin Hood type system where they rob from the poor and give to the rich supported by the current corrupt political system. They will try to convince you that what every other develop country has been doing successfully for decades will result in the collapse of the US system, loss of choice, skyrocketing costs and reduced access and quality. Shame on you if you believe it. The current system is already resulting in reduced choice with the in/out of network costs, skyrocketing costs are happening as the private insurance companies jack up premiums and shift costs to you in the form of increased copays and coinsurance, deductibles are climbing higher and higher, and this results in reduced access and quality. Physicians are getting squeezed too by the insurance companies so they try to see more patients in a given hour and that impacts quality of care. The establishment that is promoting this bad state of affairs will mix up the nuances of communism and socialism to scare you that your freedom is being taken away, but it couldn't be further from the truth. We have had social security programs for a long time in a democratic and free united states... ever since the creation of Medicare and you should look at national health insurance for all as an extension of a program that most people in the US already support.

Also remember that private hospitals and physicians, as well as supplementary private health insurance, with free choice to chose any doctor you prefer, can still exist within a national health insurance system, because that is the way it already works in most other developed countries. In fact you will have more choice in choosing your doctor and hospital because we won't have anymore of this in-network/ out of network bullshit. We will have a lot less angry people in the US if healthcare is one less thing that we don't have to worry about personally bankrupting us.
I know for a fact a local hospital here marks up its OR supplies 325-350% when it bills patients and insurance companies. Could you imagine having a repair shop and billing customers parts that have been marked up 300plus % ?
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