Japanese manufacturers, can we have an honest conversation about your chain guide mounting please?

Camp332
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2/17/2020 8:49am
I've had it happen to me once, but it was my fault of not torquing down my sprocket bolts bro.That sucks this is your 3rd time. You're the "Chain Guide Killer!"
mnomis97
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2/17/2020 9:04am
Similar Problem as Kawasakis chain rollers...
On every new kawi in the past years, the lower chain roller disintegrates after just a couple rides.
The new 2019/2020 450 has the worst roller with it only holding up about one to three rides, yet the japanese engineers refuse to do anything about it.
You would think that would be a simple fix.....
Tbteam
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2/17/2020 9:05am
It’s you.
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FWYT
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2/17/2020 10:16am
Markee wrote:
I would engineer a better mount, one that is adjustable to different sprocket sizes. KTM has an adjustable position chain guild for this purpose. Which leads...
I would engineer a better mount, one that is adjustable to different sprocket sizes. KTM has an adjustable position chain guild for this purpose. Which leads into a question, this bike one of your hill climb bikes that might use a large tooth rear sprocket? That larger size could add that extra stress to fatigue the mount sooner.
JM485 wrote:
Not on this bike, I keep it stock length and just run a 50T in the back, I'll change the front between a 13 and a...
Not on this bike, I keep it stock length and just run a 50T in the back, I'll change the front between a 13 and a 14 depending on where/what I'm riding.

I can design up a better mount no problem, but I have a couple of concerns:

1. Lining up the guide perfectly is critical. It can be done, but doing it perfectly I think could be a challenge, and if it gets done wrong it can cause major issues.

2. If I were to machine my own mount and have it welded on I'm worried about locally annealing that area and weakening the material around it. I'd have to imagine the entire swingarm is heat treated after all welding is done, so if I were to weld on it I feel that the surrounding material might become weak. Maybe this really isn't much of a concern and someone can correct me here, and if so that may be the route I'll take.
My thoughts exactly. Let me know what you come up with.

Ever tried that brace that was linked on the previous page?

The Shop

cwtoyota
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2/17/2020 10:34am Edited Date/Time 2/17/2020 10:49am
Josh, do you run an o-ring or x-ring chain? They are slightly wider than a non ringed chain, increasing the likelihood for the sides of the...
Josh, do you run an o-ring or x-ring chain? They are slightly wider than a non ringed chain, increasing the likelihood for the sides of the chain to catch on the guide. Just a thought.
JM485 wrote:
No, I just run a standard chain, I don't really like the O-rings just because of the added drag. This failure was from impact over time...
No, I just run a standard chain, I don't really like the O-rings just because of the added drag. This failure was from impact over time, it didn't happen in a rocky section or anything which tells me that it's been brewing for a bit, then finally let go. It would be one thing if this happened and the design was adequate, but when the design is just plain sloppy its kind of annoying.
I've heard guys on forums talk about breaking these before, but have never been to a motocross race and seen one fail. I think it's a pretty rare failure.

There's no way to gather accurate data about those failures, but I have a good hunch most people ripping the chain guide brackets off of the swing arm are running those aftermarket polymer guides like yours.

Most of those polymer guides are probably made from UHMW, Delrin, Acetyl, or HDPE.
They flex a lot more than a stamped aluminum guide from any Japanese OEM.

The flex between the mounting tabs is probably a source of your trouble. Those tabs are much stronger if stressed together as a unit.

What I am saying is that you need a metal bracket between the bolts on the front and back to stiffen up the assembly.
The engineers who developed that designed it as a complete system with the stock metal chain guide.
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Brap!
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2/17/2020 10:56am
I’ve seen it happen during harescrambles. It is a weak area.
HondaMan66
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2/17/2020 11:44am
There was a log on the inside of a tight left hander. I hooked my stock chain guide on it and it broke right off (CRF450) just like the OP’s. I had it welded back on and hooked it on the same log a few weeks later with the same result. Moved the log, bought a used swing arm off ebay and so far so good.
Falcon
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2/17/2020 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 2/17/2020 1:15pm
I will show you exactly why no Japanese company has changed that design yet.

Any non-Honda OEM:
"Should this be replaced or updated? Yes. Will it be easy to do and cost effective? Yes. Will it enhance the value of our vehicles? Yes. Will it reduce warranty claims and/or invite more return business? Yes. Is this change fully within our operational parameters to make for the next model year? Yes. Do we have all the necessary tooling and resources to go forward? Yes.
Is Honda doing it? No.
OK, let's wait until they do it."

Honda:
"Are any of those other twits doing it? No. OK, let's wait until they do."
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SPYGUY
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2/17/2020 8:24pm
He's running a YZF swingarm and that's how they have been for the last several years.
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kkawboy14
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2/17/2020 8:52pm
Loose chains......

I’ve never had any problem with chain guides on KXs for 35 years
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JM485
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2/17/2020 9:21pm
Thanks to everyone who responded with something productive, very much appreciated (or much ty so everyone thinks I'm a paid poster). Here is the plan:

- I ordered a new (used in good condition) yzf swingarm off ebay, should be here in a few days.

- Upon receiving the swingarm, I'll start taking some measurements and see what I can come up with to strengthen this area. I'm going to avoid welding anything extra to the swingarm for reasons I've outlined in previous posts, so any additional pieces will be bolt on. I'll likely be using the ktm braces linked on the first page of this thread as inspiration because like CW said, the polymer chain guides could very well be allowing the mounts to flex independent of each other and actually be doing more harm than good over time.

- With any luck I'll be able to come up with something reasonable and be able to machine up a prototype. It will depend on how complex it gets since I don't have CNC access, but I can get at a manual mill so hopefully that will be sufficient. If it comes out well and is user friendly maybe we can organize a group buy and have them machined at an actual shop, we would probably need at least 10-15 people willing to buy in to make the cost worth it though because low quantity runs are outstandably expensive.

As things progress I'll update this thread.
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BRX-WRX
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2/17/2020 10:10pm
Bullet Proof Designs Swingarm Guards for Yamaha and all the European= https://bulletproofdesigns.com/bpd-swingarm-guard/ Not sure about the Yamaha one, only installed them on KTMs. The kit comes with drill bit&tap with all new screws needed. You tap into your swingarm with the 2 extra screws to secure the brace/guard..
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Markee
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2/18/2020 4:49am Edited Date/Time 2/18/2020 4:52am
JM485 wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded with something productive, very much appreciated (or much ty so everyone thinks I'm a paid poster). Here is the plan: -...
Thanks to everyone who responded with something productive, very much appreciated (or much ty so everyone thinks I'm a paid poster). Here is the plan:

- I ordered a new (used in good condition) yzf swingarm off ebay, should be here in a few days.

- Upon receiving the swingarm, I'll start taking some measurements and see what I can come up with to strengthen this area. I'm going to avoid welding anything extra to the swingarm for reasons I've outlined in previous posts, so any additional pieces will be bolt on. I'll likely be using the ktm braces linked on the first page of this thread as inspiration because like CW said, the polymer chain guides could very well be allowing the mounts to flex independent of each other and actually be doing more harm than good over time.

- With any luck I'll be able to come up with something reasonable and be able to machine up a prototype. It will depend on how complex it gets since I don't have CNC access, but I can get at a manual mill so hopefully that will be sufficient. If it comes out well and is user friendly maybe we can organize a group buy and have them machined at an actual shop, we would probably need at least 10-15 people willing to buy in to make the cost worth it though because low quantity runs are outstandably expensive.

As things progress I'll update this thread.
I understand the concerns. Personally i'm not worried about two longitudinal 40mm long welds on a new guide bracket. The entire part is failing, the sky is the limit on improvement.

Alignment is easy. Clamp a straight edge to one or both sides of your sprocket, have it long enough and rigid enough to reach your counter sprocket. Not using the marks on the swing arm align your rear wheel using your gauge. Once that rear wheel is dead on, just use your sprocket as a reference for the new guide placement.

I have various straight edge stock for alignment, 1/4 thick 1 1/4 wide cold rolled steel bar works good. Aluminum extrusions are really straight as well.

Another tip, if you have an extra hub around, mount it with a sprocket to the swing arm, align to front sprocket. Then take the swing arm off and take to the welder with your new fancy pants bracket. Being able to bench weld that bracket would be great, could get a damn good eye / gauge view on that bracket to sprocket alignment instead of working off the floor or stand.
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r.sal923
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2/18/2020 5:47am
FU2 wrote:
Better ask the question, why and how does this happen to u and not to any one else. Is it a yahama thing or just a...
Better ask the question, why and how does this happen to u and not to any one else.

Is it a yahama thing or just a rider thing or just bad luck...

Well searching for parts can be fun so have fun with it sir..
JM485 wrote:
I'm about 100% sure I am not the only person this has happened to. And regardless, the fact remains that their mounting setup leaves a lot...
I'm about 100% sure I am not the only person this has happened to.

And regardless, the fact remains that their mounting setup leaves a lot to be desired to say the least. Just welding the damn thing one one side, and not even using the entire available welding surface is just lazy, plain and simple, and there's really no excuse for it.
This has happed to me 3 times on Yamaha, 1 time on a ktm. Gets hung up in hardpack ruts. Never lost a case side only sprockets chains . Weld it back on stronger than new.
Timo_2824
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2/18/2020 6:10am
BRX-WRX wrote:
Bullet Proof Designs Swingarm Guards for Yamaha and all the European= https://bulletproofdesigns.com/bpd-swingarm-guard/ Not sure about the Yamaha one, only installed them on KTMs. The kit comes...
Bullet Proof Designs Swingarm Guards for Yamaha and all the European= https://bulletproofdesigns.com/bpd-swingarm-guard/ Not sure about the Yamaha one, only installed them on KTMs. The kit comes with drill bit&tap with all new screws needed. You tap into your swingarm with the 2 extra screws to secure the brace/guard..
Interesting, apparently it's not just Japanese manufacturers that have this issue. KTM's have the rear mounting tab break off when you hit a log or big rock. Personally I haven't ever seen this, but I ride on mostly sand or clay with little rocks and few trees. I can see were tying the mounts all together would definitely distribute the load and help it from ripping off like the OP's.
rohleder644
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2/18/2020 6:34am
JM485 wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded with something productive, very much appreciated (or much ty so everyone thinks I'm a paid poster). Here is the plan: -...
Thanks to everyone who responded with something productive, very much appreciated (or much ty so everyone thinks I'm a paid poster). Here is the plan:

- I ordered a new (used in good condition) yzf swingarm off ebay, should be here in a few days.

- Upon receiving the swingarm, I'll start taking some measurements and see what I can come up with to strengthen this area. I'm going to avoid welding anything extra to the swingarm for reasons I've outlined in previous posts, so any additional pieces will be bolt on. I'll likely be using the ktm braces linked on the first page of this thread as inspiration because like CW said, the polymer chain guides could very well be allowing the mounts to flex independent of each other and actually be doing more harm than good over time.

- With any luck I'll be able to come up with something reasonable and be able to machine up a prototype. It will depend on how complex it gets since I don't have CNC access, but I can get at a manual mill so hopefully that will be sufficient. If it comes out well and is user friendly maybe we can organize a group buy and have them machined at an actual shop, we would probably need at least 10-15 people willing to buy in to make the cost worth it though because low quantity runs are outstandably expensive.

As things progress I'll update this thread.
Buy the Bulletproof unit. Be done with it. Someone else has already solved your problem. They’ve had it on the market for 15 years.
1
HondaMan66
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2/18/2020 9:54am
Anyone have a pic of the Bullet Proof Designs swing arm guard installed?
TKL965
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2/18/2020 10:33am
I'd almost consider doing a 3d printed bracket the wraps around the swing and incorperate a guide into that, have the whole thing just bolt on in 2 halfs? be cheaper and more cost effective than maching something out of billet. thats if you can get a hard wearing plastic? food for thought
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2/19/2020 12:18am Edited Date/Time 2/19/2020 12:20am
Why are you saying japanese? Its a yamaha. Thats like telling all European manufacturers to change to decent rims just because ktms have garbage quality rims
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jmo443
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2/19/2020 12:50am
JM485 wrote:
I want to know how, in the infinite wisdom present withing the engineering departments of the collective big 4 japanese motorcycle manufacturers, they continue to believe...
I want to know how, in the infinite wisdom present withing the engineering departments of the collective big 4 japanese motorcycle manufacturers, they continue to believe that their chain guide mounting designs are adequate. Somehow to me, a person of average skills and intelligence, it is overwhelmingly obvious that simply bird shit welding a thin aluminum bracket to a thin aluminum swingarm, in an area that is probably the most vulnerable on the entire bike to damage, is simply not a good idea on a critical part like a chain guide. It should be clear to anyone that this simple part coming dislodged from its mounting point could have horrific consequences should it get wrapped around the rear sprocket at just the wrong moment. . . But no, we have, and will continue to, bird shit weld our mounting brackets on and rely on hopes and prayers that this delicate piece somehow remains in place though the unspeakable abuse it is likely to see. I don't ask for much, just a little thought as consideration, but these mounting designs are devoid of anything that could resemble a reasonable amount of due diligence.

As you can see I've had great luck with this little bit over the years, my current tally is 2 swingarms, 1 rear hub, 3 sprockets, and 1 missed race as this has happened not once, not twice, but three fucking times in the same amount of years. Seriously, when will the madness end, and when will the engineers at yamahondazukawi pull their collective craniums from their rectums and realized that what they've been doing for the last 30 years is simply not good enough. Don't make me buy a ktm, I don't want to do it, but at some point sanity needs to prevail. If you've made it this far, thank you for your time reading my rant, and have a great eventing as I scour the web for yet another swingarm to add to my collection.


I looked at this the other day and couldn’t figure out why the hell the acerbis logo was upside down I see why now lol. Sorry pal.
MxKing809
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Fantasy
2/19/2020 4:22am
Rotaholic wrote:
You are running an after market chain guide, the foot pegs are worn flat, you modified the front case saver and never put in shorter bolts...
You are running an after market chain guide, the foot pegs are worn flat, you modified the front case saver and never put in shorter bolts, lower linkage looks like its never been serviced and I doubt the wheel is tracking straight. I've never seen that before, but can now see how it could happen lol

Cool story Bro..... try again





2/19/2020 6:18am
They should start by adjusting their robot welder program so it welds the full length of the bracket. I’ve had a few different fabricators grind and weld Honda and Yamaha brackets for me over the past decade. They always struggle with the alloy. It’s not pretty, but no failures since doing this.




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danman
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2/19/2020 8:56am
Something like this is always interesting to me. What really caused this?
Did a sprocket bolt or two come loose causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did the rear axle or chain adjusters loosen on one side causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did you just short a jump or ? and hit a large rock causing it to break?
Could an improperly adjusted chain cause too much stress over time, causing the break?

I too have been riding 30+ years and never broke one. I don't know that I've actually seen one in person, just on the web. Plenty of broken bones though!

There has to be a source to the break. There is no way this just broke on it's own from riding.
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HondaMan66
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2/19/2020 9:07am
danman wrote:
Something like this is always interesting to me. What really caused this? Did a sprocket bolt or two come loose causing the chain to come off...
Something like this is always interesting to me. What really caused this?
Did a sprocket bolt or two come loose causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did the rear axle or chain adjusters loosen on one side causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did you just short a jump or ? and hit a large rock causing it to break?
Could an improperly adjusted chain cause too much stress over time, causing the break?

I too have been riding 30+ years and never broke one. I don't know that I've actually seen one in person, just on the web. Plenty of broken bones though!

There has to be a source to the break. There is no way this just broke on it's own from riding.
Check out this pic posted earlier. The factory does a terrible job attaching these. This is the point of this thread. The factories barely weld these on. It takes very little to rip one off.
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SmokinJoe439
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2/19/2020 9:43am
Wow note to self when buying new bike treat it like a used one and throughly check everything. That's such a shit weld to point of being a factory defect to the point of where i can't believe that passed QC.
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Bret
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2/19/2020 10:01am
The manufacturers definitely have the expertise to mount the guide better. That makes me think that the minimal welds were intentional. This would allow the guide to break off and cause zero damage to the swingarm if it made contact with or got caught on something. If the welds were stronger and the guide beefier, the damage could be transferred to the swingarm instead, resulting in undetected cracks or deformities since the guide remained in place. The engineers are pretty smart. I doubt that this is something that was done for cost savings or something they simply overlooked.
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Rotaholic
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2/19/2020 10:34am
Rotaholic wrote:
You are running an after market chain guide, the foot pegs are worn flat, you modified the front case saver and never put in shorter bolts...
You are running an after market chain guide, the foot pegs are worn flat, you modified the front case saver and never put in shorter bolts, lower linkage looks like its never been serviced and I doubt the wheel is tracking straight. I've never seen that before, but can now see how it could happen lol
MxKing809 wrote:
Cool story Bro..... try again [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/02/19/405282/s1200_84DA2E85_667E_45CB_AB05_9CCB50F9A275.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/02/19/405281/s1200_0AFFEE6F_CB85_4DEE_9034_13C29A36062B.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/02/19/405279/s1200_208093F7_4065_4BE0_B5F3_AA3C6ECA25FD.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/02/19/405280/s1200_C113D1D6_495F_4F7C_B223_9393EBF9475E.jpg[/img]

Cool story Bro..... try again





Have you ever thought about not casing those doubles and clearing them instead....
1
danman
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2/19/2020 11:11am
danman wrote:
Something like this is always interesting to me. What really caused this? Did a sprocket bolt or two come loose causing the chain to come off...
Something like this is always interesting to me. What really caused this?
Did a sprocket bolt or two come loose causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did the rear axle or chain adjusters loosen on one side causing the chain to come off breaking the mount?
Did you just short a jump or ? and hit a large rock causing it to break?
Could an improperly adjusted chain cause too much stress over time, causing the break?

I too have been riding 30+ years and never broke one. I don't know that I've actually seen one in person, just on the web. Plenty of broken bones though!

There has to be a source to the break. There is no way this just broke on it's own from riding.
HondaMan66 wrote:
Check out this pic posted earlier. The factory does a terrible job attaching these. This is the point of this thread. The factories barely weld these...
Check out this pic posted earlier. The factory does a terrible job attaching these. This is the point of this thread. The factories barely weld these on. It takes very little to rip one off.
I get that they aren't welded on that great, but I'm going to disagree that they "take very little to rip one off". Yes, there are exceptions, but the VAST majority are fine.
If that was the case, we'd hear way more about that happening.
In my opinion, if everything is tightened properly and adjusted properly, this doesn't happen unless someone crashes or hits something with quite a bit of force.

These don't rip themselves off for no reason. Something unusual is causing it.
1
FWYT
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2/19/2020 11:16am
danman wrote:
I get that they aren't welded on that great, but I'm going to disagree that they "take very little to rip one off". Yes, there are...
I get that they aren't welded on that great, but I'm going to disagree that they "take very little to rip one off". Yes, there are exceptions, but the VAST majority are fine.
If that was the case, we'd hear way more about that happening.
In my opinion, if everything is tightened properly and adjusted properly, this doesn't happen unless someone crashes or hits something with quite a bit of force.

These don't rip themselves off for no reason. Something unusual is causing it.
As many have stated, not as common of an occurrence in moto but happens plenty off-road.
2/19/2020 11:54am
It's a pokey-out bit of a dirt bike. Like every other pokey-out bit of the bike, it will get wiped out or bent in certain situations.
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