Japan defeats the world...until now? I don't understand

#434
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2/12/2019 11:22am
WCRider wrote:
Deutsche Qualität
#434 wrote:
Although it's close to the border and a lot of germans work there, it‘s an austrian company.
WCRider wrote:
Basically the same thing. Look at Hitler Laughing
Hitler was born twenty kilometers away from where the KTM factory is today...
2
kb228
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2/12/2019 11:25am
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind! As a company kawasaki is...
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind!

As a company kawasaki is the smaller brand in whole. By Japanese standards they are probably not even in the top 25 companies in Japan. Ktm wouldnt even be in the top 100.

In the motorcycle industry things change quite drastically, but to answer your question yes the japanese brands invest elsewhere.

Are you sure about Kawasaki?
I thought KHI was MASSIVE?!
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive.


To the op, ktm isnt lightyears ahead. As a matter of fact id like to hear 1 thing that ktm does thats lightyears ahead of the 19 kx450.
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1
2/12/2019 12:27pm
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
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level
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2/12/2019 12:29pm
I would of never ever bought a ktm dirt bike 10 to 20 years ago but now it would be at the top of my list. Amazing what championships and decoster has done to change my mind.

The Shop

STLSharky
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2/12/2019 12:34pm
Air filter serviceability. 1. Rear axle flop to change wheelbase 2. Hah
2/12/2019 12:35pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 12:36pm
Let's also be real,

Japan originally defeated the world in the 70s/80s by default... Meaning during that era, sure Japan made good bikes, but also Italy/Spain/USA/UK/Czech/etc all made really shitty dirtbikes
2
drt410
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2/12/2019 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 1:12pm
Because KTM is a motorcycle company and thats where their revenue comes from. If they make a bad bike they make no money. Luckily for us KTMs existence relies on delivering top of the line bikes. For Honda, motorcycles are just 1 of the thousands of things they make and nowhere near the top for moneymakers.

Still, Honda makes great bikes. Yamaha won all of the shootouts this year in both classes and won 2 250 championships last year. Suzuki has the most championships out of anyone in the last 15 years. Kawasaki won 2 450mx championships the last 2 years and holds both red plates. Theyre just fine...
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kiwifan
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2/12/2019 1:39pm
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
Yes because Steel welds are exactly like Aluminium welds eh? Sorry, but all Japanese bikes are just as high quality as KTM's.
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Timo_2824
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2/12/2019 1:49pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 1:52pm
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
You can't really compare steel welds vs aluminum though, the steel one will always "look" better. The beads on aluminum, especially mass production ones never really look great to me due to their size.

I went into a dealership that had everything except Husky, I ended up with a blue one. I was definitely interested in the 350 though.
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MXVet261
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2/12/2019 2:07pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 2:10pm
Do KTMs still have wood screws holding the shrouds on?

.
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Skids
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2/12/2019 2:09pm
KTM invest a lot in marketing and people believe what they are told to believe.
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2/12/2019 2:23pm
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind! As a company kawasaki is...
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind!

As a company kawasaki is the smaller brand in whole. By Japanese standards they are probably not even in the top 25 companies in Japan. Ktm wouldnt even be in the top 100.

In the motorcycle industry things change quite drastically, but to answer your question yes the japanese brands invest elsewhere.

Are you sure about Kawasaki?
I thought KHI was MASSIVE?!
kb228 wrote:
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive. To the op, ktm isnt...
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive.


To the op, ktm isnt lightyears ahead. As a matter of fact id like to hear 1 thing that ktm does thats lightyears ahead of the 19 kx450.
Win.
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1
2/12/2019 2:26pm
MXVet261 wrote:
Do KTMs still have wood screws holding the shrouds on?

.
Yep. Modern technology passing up Japan. And who ever thought those torx head bolts were ever a good idea?
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Doddy
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2/12/2019 2:26pm
If only Yamaha made one.....

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RichieW13
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2/12/2019 2:59pm
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles. Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing. The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN...
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles.

Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing.

The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN on motorcycles - such that bean counters say just maintain. The entire industry is asking HOW do we get back to higher sales. No one knows - because a lot has been tried.
On paper - dirtbikes are same price they have always been to purchase (inflation adjusted) - so that can't be it.



I would also argue that while on paper the ktm is best (it sort have always been) it's arguably NOT the best for most people.


I mean just imagine what california was like - high school teams, race nights every night of the week - large regional series - good paychecks. Large numbers meant great industry around that - parts support - local race support, shop involvement etc.

But without the numbers - none of this can exist. I think KTM has the offroad segment completely dominated which really helps their sales numbers vs the Japanese too. So their involvement in each segment is higher than the others.



Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.)

A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m…

$1,145 in 1973 is worth about $6,700 now. https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Cumulative_In…

But, the equivalent Honda CRF450R goes for $9,300, which is about 39% more. https://powersports.honda.com/2019/crf450r.aspx
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2/12/2019 3:03pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 3:10pm
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles. Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing. The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN...
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles.

Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing.

The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN on motorcycles - such that bean counters say just maintain. The entire industry is asking HOW do we get back to higher sales. No one knows - because a lot has been tried.
On paper - dirtbikes are same price they have always been to purchase (inflation adjusted) - so that can't be it.



I would also argue that while on paper the ktm is best (it sort have always been) it's arguably NOT the best for most people.


I mean just imagine what california was like - high school teams, race nights every night of the week - large regional series - good paychecks. Large numbers meant great industry around that - parts support - local race support, shop involvement etc.

But without the numbers - none of this can exist. I think KTM has the offroad segment completely dominated which really helps their sales numbers vs the Japanese too. So their involvement in each segment is higher than the others.



RichieW13 wrote:
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.) A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m-elsinore/ $1,145 in 1973...
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.)

A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m…

$1,145 in 1973 is worth about $6,700 now. https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Cumulative_In…

But, the equivalent Honda CRF450R goes for $9,300, which is about 39% more. https://powersports.honda.com/2019/crf450r.aspx
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike.

Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this market and a production rule didn't exist.
Let's look at the mid 80's when the production rule hit - and we compare more closely - however this is what I came up with on my inflation adjustment.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 465.84% higher than prices in 1973. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $1,750 in 1973 is equivalent in purchasing power to $9,902.20 in 2019, a difference of $8,152.20 over 46 years.


Considering that inflation statistics are hugely supressed by all forms of government - and many analysts in house metrics place the last 10 years more closely to 6-7 real percent inflation rather than the reported 0-2 - I'd say the bike pricing is quite good.



People are currently buying ridiculously priced bicycles in record numbers. The purchase price is NOT our currentl hurdle.


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ruy
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2/12/2019 3:09pm


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ATKpilot99
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2/12/2019 3:25pm
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike. Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this...
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike.

Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this market and a production rule didn't exist.
Let's look at the mid 80's when the production rule hit - and we compare more closely - however this is what I came up with on my inflation adjustment.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 465.84% higher than prices in 1973. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $1,750 in 1973 is equivalent in purchasing power to $9,902.20 in 2019, a difference of $8,152.20 over 46 years.


Considering that inflation statistics are hugely supressed by all forms of government - and many analysts in house metrics place the last 10 years more closely to 6-7 real percent inflation rather than the reported 0-2 - I'd say the bike pricing is quite good.



People are currently buying ridiculously priced bicycles in record numbers. The purchase price is NOT our currentl hurdle.


The problem is by and large wages for the average worker haven't come close to keeping pace with inflation. There are still manufacturing jobs out there offering $10 an hr. I was making that almost 30 years ago. Jobs that require degrees offering 25 to 30k a year which isn't much.
1
Kid Spam
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2/12/2019 3:27pm
Are you sure about Kawasaki?
I thought KHI was MASSIVE?!
kb228 wrote:
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive. To the op, ktm isnt...
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive.


To the op, ktm isnt lightyears ahead. As a matter of fact id like to hear 1 thing that ktm does thats lightyears ahead of the 19 kx450.
KTMmarkus wrote:
Win.
I am not saying KTM is light years ahead, I'm generalizing the many positive KTM comments and the many negative "everyone else" comments I read
RichieW13
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2/12/2019 3:33pm
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles. Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing. The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN...
KTM essentially ONLY does motorcycles.

Motivates you a lot when that's your only thing.

The big 4 are so diverse - and very likely breaking EVEN on motorcycles - such that bean counters say just maintain. The entire industry is asking HOW do we get back to higher sales. No one knows - because a lot has been tried.
On paper - dirtbikes are same price they have always been to purchase (inflation adjusted) - so that can't be it.



I would also argue that while on paper the ktm is best (it sort have always been) it's arguably NOT the best for most people.


I mean just imagine what california was like - high school teams, race nights every night of the week - large regional series - good paychecks. Large numbers meant great industry around that - parts support - local race support, shop involvement etc.

But without the numbers - none of this can exist. I think KTM has the offroad segment completely dominated which really helps their sales numbers vs the Japanese too. So their involvement in each segment is higher than the others.



RichieW13 wrote:
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.) A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m-elsinore/ $1,145 in 1973...
Motorcycles are more expensive now, adjusted for inflation. (At least compared to 35 years ago.)

A 1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore was $1,145. https://motocrossactionmag.com/classic-motocross-iron-1973-honda-cr250m…

$1,145 in 1973 is worth about $6,700 now. https://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Calculators/Cumulative_In…

But, the equivalent Honda CRF450R goes for $9,300, which is about 39% more. https://powersports.honda.com/2019/crf450r.aspx
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike. Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this...
A yz250 retails for 7200 dollars (guessing) - that's a "comparable" bike.

Also - in 73 honda was still trying to secure their place in this market and a production rule didn't exist.
Let's look at the mid 80's when the production rule hit - and we compare more closely - however this is what I came up with on my inflation adjustment.


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 465.84% higher than prices in 1973. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $1,750 in 1973 is equivalent in purchasing power to $9,902.20 in 2019, a difference of $8,152.20 over 46 years.


Considering that inflation statistics are hugely supressed by all forms of government - and many analysts in house metrics place the last 10 years more closely to 6-7 real percent inflation rather than the reported 0-2 - I'd say the bike pricing is quite good.



People are currently buying ridiculously priced bicycles in record numbers. The purchase price is NOT our currentl hurdle.


Still not sure about some of your calculations.

1) Comparing a YZ250 (2 stroke) to the 1973 CR250 Elsinore is comparing something that is mostly running on old technology (YZ 250) to one of the newest technology bikes at the time (250 Elsinore). If you want to compare entry level bikes at the time, then maybe compare a Hodaka 100 (about $500 new in the early 70's) to a YZ 125 (about $6,500).

2) You changed my Elsinore cost from $1,145 to $1,750. That $600 difference is worth $3,500 now.

I will agree with you that the price of motorcycles is not the main factor in the reduction in sales over the decades. But it is a factor. That 1973 Hodaka for $500 would adjust to about $3,000 now. Even a Honda CRF230 is going to cost over $4,000. That doesn't help newbies to get into the sport.

But bigger factors are: less riding area, cost of gas to get to riding areas and video games.
MotoMan12345
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2/12/2019 3:41pm
I don’t even wanna read this thread. I have a feeling KTM lover boys are in full force and if you say something negative about a KTM you’re going to be ripped into pieces. I rode a KTM and hated it, also rode a Yamaha and hated it. I’ve been on Honda’s my entire life and I’ll never switch. Also been messing around on an RMZ250 and I love that bike as well. IMO for the average rider every color bike will make you go the same speed.
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MotoMan12345
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2/12/2019 3:51pm
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
2
resetjet
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2/12/2019 3:59pm
Which turns faster, a destroyer (ktm) or an aircraft carrier(japs). Theres your answer. Ktms biggest problem was their arrogance. They spent a zillion dollars on the pds, it was a failure, also sticking with euro spec wp forks and crazy geometry steel frames. It seems they have gotten over that now.
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2/12/2019 4:00pm
My mistake on the price

However - trying to say that comparing a 73 to a modern bike is apples to apples and "flagship to flagship" is total bullshit.

Inflation adjustment would only apply to the SAME item - of which it would be like buying an crf230 now (not exactly same - as it has a 4 stroke and is more expensive/more parts)

Modern dirtbikes with long travel, hugely sophisticated suspension, electronics, fuel pump, HUGE engineering and investment in manufacturing level etc etc are not even close.

A modern yz250 more closely relates to a cr250 of the time (despite the suspension) because the concept of a full blown RACE 4 stroke at the time compared to what exists now is a far departure

If we look at apples to apples in capability - a 73 cr250 of the time is likely less capable than a crf230F ha


I digress - you can blame the bike price. I disagree, simple as that.
Mtn bikes are selling like crazy - for 5-10k.
Road bike are selling like crazy - 5-10k

Dirtbikes are not.


I have the theory that partly we need to blame the bikes being too good. A modern bike is scary - all the way down to 50cc for it's rider. To be fast/competitive now a new bike is REALLY FAST
Back in the 70's - a 500cc bike was 30hp. Same as a modern 125 (worse) and was considered "fast"
A 125 was 15-20 hp and considered fast! People could PUSH their bikes to the limit - and not die doing so....and an average guy could hop on a 125 or 250 that was far lower to the ground, easier to ride, and less scary.

Could you imagine loaning your neighbor, who has never ridden a motorcycle a 450 and trying to teach them to ride>?????
No way. You'd kill them.

Pitbikes have such a fun experience to people because they are so slow and easy to manage. I think dirtbikes were exactly that back in the day - fun and easy to manage.

But blaming cost - IMHO is far from the solution. A bad ASS brand new kx450 2018 model can be had for under 6k right now
Suzukis for YEARS now are cheap as all get out.

If it was all about that - they would sell like hotcakes.

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Motoxdoc
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2/12/2019 4:04pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
I don't understand what the body of your post has to do with the title....a very common theme among vital members. How about something that makes more sense like, "The Austrian's make a superior bike; are the Japanese manufacturers focusing their energy on something other than MX?"

"is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?"...Huh Lol! Dude, smoke another one while you contemplate that!

1
SmokinJoe439
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2/12/2019 4:08pm
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
Not you again another new username motoman?
rutsmash
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Phoenix, AZ, USA
2/12/2019 4:54pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
The price might be light years ahead, not sure about the bike.
2
GCBC
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2/12/2019 5:18pm
they need to offer a base model for 8k and an "R" model for 13-15k like on Superbikes that has better suspension, electronics, port/polish, full exhaust, lighter wheels, hole shot device and all the other stuff people want to do. Do it in limited numbers like 250models each year.
kiwifan
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2/12/2019 5:39pm
resetjet wrote:
Which turns faster, a destroyer (ktm) or an aircraft carrier(japs). Theres your answer. Ktms biggest problem was their arrogance. They spent a zillion dollars on the...
Which turns faster, a destroyer (ktm) or an aircraft carrier(japs). Theres your answer. Ktms biggest problem was their arrogance. They spent a zillion dollars on the pds, it was a failure, also sticking with euro spec wp forks and crazy geometry steel frames. It seems they have gotten over that now.
Firstly, kindly do not refer to the Japanese bikes as Japs...

Secondly, the Japanese bikes do not weight THAT much more than the KTM's..I am not sure why everyone gets so damn hung up over scale weight...ride the frigging bikes then see which one suits you, if it happens to be the one with the smaller scale weight then great.

Thirdly, most of you (I bet) are not the the level that can determine the weight difference on the track.

Finally, if you cant lift a RMZ450 (the heaviest scale weighted 450) on a stand then not sure how you can hang onto any 450 in a race, let along the most powerful ones (CRF, KTM, etc).
4

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