Japan defeats the world...until now? I don't understand

Kid Spam
Posts
124
Joined
1/12/2019
Location
Raleigh, NC US
2/12/2019 6:20pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
Motoxdoc wrote:
I don't understand what the body of your post has to do with the title....a very common theme among vital members. How about something that makes...
I don't understand what the body of your post has to do with the title....a very common theme among vital members. How about something that makes more sense like, "The Austrian's make a superior bike; are the Japanese manufacturers focusing their energy on something other than MX?"

"is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?"...Huh Lol! Dude, smoke another one while you contemplate that!

I am asking the question, are the Japanese bikes significantly inferior to KTM? The consistent comments here have prompted me to ask. The responses have been very insightful. Unfortunately, IMO, their seems to be a very strong sentiment that KTM is superior. That's a bummer.
BikeGuy321
Posts
427
Joined
9/25/2018
Location
San Jose, CA US
2/12/2019 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 2/12/2019 6:33pm
If you keep both wheels on the ground all the time, and bust 2 laps then head back to the truck, you won't notice the weight. If you jump a lot, ride tracks with off camber turns, and do longer motos, you'll definitely notice the difference in weight.

3
2
2/12/2019 6:56pm
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind! As a company kawasaki is...
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind!

As a company kawasaki is the smaller brand in whole. By Japanese standards they are probably not even in the top 25 companies in Japan. Ktm wouldnt even be in the top 100.

In the motorcycle industry things change quite drastically, but to answer your question yes the japanese brands invest elsewhere.

Are you sure about Kawasaki?
I thought KHI was MASSIVE?!
kb228 wrote:
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive. To the op, ktm isnt...
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive.


To the op, ktm isnt lightyears ahead. As a matter of fact id like to hear 1 thing that ktm does thats lightyears ahead of the 19 kx450.
2019 kx rides awesome , just not the same quality as ktm, they pretty much copied everything ktm does to their bikes, hydraulic clutch, e start, same valve train etc
3

The Shop

Matt Fisher
Posts
3947
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Visalia, CA US
Fantasy
1084th
2/12/2019 7:10pm
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind! As a company kawasaki is...
Ktm is small potatoes compared to Honda and Suzuki...kawasaki and yamaha follows behind in the grand scheme of things- far behind!

As a company kawasaki is the smaller brand in whole. By Japanese standards they are probably not even in the top 25 companies in Japan. Ktm wouldnt even be in the top 100.

In the motorcycle industry things change quite drastically, but to answer your question yes the japanese brands invest elsewhere.

Are you sure about Kawasaki?
I thought KHI was MASSIVE?!
kb228 wrote:
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive. To the op, ktm isnt...
The jap companies have more money and resources than ktm by far. Its not even a comparison. Yes khi is massive.


To the op, ktm isnt lightyears ahead. As a matter of fact id like to hear 1 thing that ktm does thats lightyears ahead of the 19 kx450.
Front end traction on flat corners, overall feeling of lightness. Oddly, I think the stability of the KTM might be a touch better. The KX has more bottom end than the KTM 350 or their 450. Easier to roll on the throttle and squirt over something.

Source: My son has a 18 KTM350, one of my close friends has a 19 KX450. I can ride either of them whenever I want. In the last few months I've also ridden a 18.5 Factory Edition and a 19 YZ450. Truth is they're all so much more capable than I am it's silly.
731chopper
Posts
4077
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
Fantasy
390th
2/12/2019 9:26pm
2019 kx rides awesome , just not the same quality as ktm, they pretty much copied everything ktm does to their bikes, hydraulic clutch, e start...
2019 kx rides awesome , just not the same quality as ktm, they pretty much copied everything ktm does to their bikes, hydraulic clutch, e start, same valve train etc
Not the same quality in what regard? I have a KTM and some things on the bike are nice like the machining of the shock linkage but other things are junk like the galvanized fasteners.

I’d have a new Kawasaki if they still made a 2-stroke.
1
KDXGarage
Posts
2562
Joined
12/16/2010
Location
AL US
2/12/2019 10:46pm
Kid Spam wrote:
I am asking the question, are the Japanese bikes significantly inferior to KTM? The consistent comments here have prompted me to ask. The responses have been...
I am asking the question, are the Japanese bikes significantly inferior to KTM? The consistent comments here have prompted me to ask. The responses have been very insightful. Unfortunately, IMO, their seems to be a very strong sentiment that KTM is superior. That's a bummer.
Which bike(s) do you own and ride??
4csHATER
Posts
551
Joined
4/11/2017
Location
The sticks, KY US
2/12/2019 11:00pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
Its because they are not cutting corners, They are paying there designers, japan is not.
2
wardy
Posts
1763
Joined
3/31/2008
Location
US
2/12/2019 11:15pm
After the big push to sht can 2 strokes and the push on 4. Ktm and the others took it personal. they set out to be the best, knock off the big boys one at a time.

they didn't like being talked down to about the way the sport was to be going.

so here they are, doing well, filling up the podiums.

good for them, they kept giving the riders choices, which in the end rewarded them with more sales and popularity.

4csHATER
Posts
551
Joined
4/11/2017
Location
The sticks, KY US
2/12/2019 11:18pm
Anonymous wrote:
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead...
Not long ago in old man years, KTM was not taken seriously by the mx community. Now, conventional wisdom is that KTM is light years ahead of every brand competing in AMA racing.
Are the Big 4 simply investing elsewhere in their products? Everyone has an opinion or preference, but is it possible that the bikes we have grown up on are fading?
Truth is as soon as you up the compression for any jap bike they snap the rod, the rod stabs cases, counter balancer, and tranny self detonating.


The fix for this and any pro mx mechanic will tell you is to run a crank works or carillo rod,

well long story short carillo is owned by pankl, which is what comes factory in the ktm.

Also the mapping is terrible on jap bikes, and the valveseats have a chemical reaction to pump fuel causing them to deteriorate, and not only that but when the valve starts to seat too far into the head the collets get loose and then drop the valve.

Some bikes getting produced today (im not gonna say which ones). Are designed to fail on purpose.

I had to learn the hard way,

Yamahas have weak rods, terrible mapping,

kawis have a issue that needs revised on every model year for 250f and 450f which is a crankcase breather shaft that is a pressed fit that turns in crankcase, and then bottom end cant release pressure,

suzuki's aparently fixed there issue with transmissions.

hondas mapping is so slow it cant produce horsepower, thats why there motors last the longest, they are bullet proof but will never ever get you a holeshot.


KTM/Husqvarna is made with Del west valves, basically a vortex ignition, and carillo rod with cp piston, and hinson clutch cork.

so i mean in reality they are a bike that comes with all the upgrades factory except Ceramic bearings and copper seats and guides


i know im gonna get hated on for this post, but its the truth and ive rode all models
2
2
drt410
Posts
2075
Joined
3/18/2017
Location
Boston, MA US
2/12/2019 11:46pm
Doddy wrote:
If only Yamaha made one..... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/12/324990/s1200_KTM_X_BOW_GT4.jpg[/img]
If only Yamaha made one.....

Honda does

2
drt410
Posts
2075
Joined
3/18/2017
Location
Boston, MA US
2/12/2019 11:48pm
GCBC wrote:
they need to offer a base model for 8k and an "R" model for 13-15k like on Superbikes that has better suspension, electronics, port/polish, full exhaust...
they need to offer a base model for 8k and an "R" model for 13-15k like on Superbikes that has better suspension, electronics, port/polish, full exhaust, lighter wheels, hole shot device and all the other stuff people want to do. Do it in limited numbers like 250models each year.
Like the factory edition lol?
2/13/2019 12:15am
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
I raced Honda’s and Yamahas my whole life. That’s my point I guess. Since you won’t switch.

I Rode a ktm 250sx in 2014 at demo day and hated it. Theyve slowly got nicer and nicer over many year with the Achilles heel being the suspension. Then once the aer48 came out the ktm became the perfect package.
keinz
Posts
2297
Joined
9/26/2011
Location
Tallinn, Estonia EE
2/13/2019 12:38am
Perfect duo. Pit Beirer and Stefan Pierer
mmcmx
Posts
2282
Joined
8/31/2008
Location
Perafita, Catalunya PE
2/13/2019 1:46am
My 2016 KTM SXF 450 FE is the best bike I've ever had, period.

Still, I miss my heavy and outdated 2014 Kawi 450. Maybe it's because I don't ride that much anymore but I never enjoy riding the KTM as much as I did with that bike.

HP, weight, etc are just numbers, there must be something else...
Jrewing
Posts
2866
Joined
1/4/2014
Location
AU
2/13/2019 1:55am
3 pages and no photo of a jap asleep on a train in the subway yet! Disappointed..
2
WCRider
Posts
3134
Joined
8/19/2017
Location
BE
Fantasy
2234th
2/13/2019 2:12am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2019 2:30am
Thank you RedBull for the money. Hyper-commercialization of MX, a sport that has traditionally been associated with the working classes, but has been rapidly gentrified over the past 15 years by business interests.
KDXGarage
Posts
2562
Joined
12/16/2010
Location
AL US
2/13/2019 2:31am
WCRider wrote:
Thank you RedBull for the money. Hyper-commercialization of MX, a sport that has traditionally been associated with the working classes, but has been rapidly gentrified over...
Thank you RedBull for the money. Hyper-commercialization of MX, a sport that has traditionally been associated with the working classes, but has been rapidly gentrified over the past 15 years by business interests.
Don't forget Bajaj or whatever the Indian company is.

4CS hater, thanks for going against your user name. You should have mentioned the awesome forks that Ktm has come with over the years...That EASY to work on shock... Etc.

Parts prices

Uh uh uh
MotoMan12345
Posts
1664
Joined
12/22/2014
Location
Woodbine, NJ US
Fantasy
1599th
2/13/2019 4:02am
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
Not you again another new username motoman?
Not a new username. I think I’ve had this account for a few years now just logged back on
MotoMan12345
Posts
1664
Joined
12/22/2014
Location
Woodbine, NJ US
Fantasy
1599th
2/13/2019 4:04am
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention...
Go into a dealership that sells jap and Austrian. Pull one of the Jap bikes and sit it next to an Austrian bike. Pay special attention to the welds, and machining on both machines. You’ll be like....holy shit. This Austrian bike is so much nicer.
I rode a KTM and hated it. Soooo your point?
I raced Honda’s and Yamahas my whole life. That’s my point I guess. Since you won’t switch. I Rode a ktm 250sx in 2014 at demo...
I raced Honda’s and Yamahas my whole life. That’s my point I guess. Since you won’t switch.

I Rode a ktm 250sx in 2014 at demo day and hated it. Theyve slowly got nicer and nicer over many year with the Achilles heel being the suspension. Then once the aer48 came out the ktm became the perfect package.
And that’s fine I just don’t like when the KTM guys sit here and say every bike sucks and KTM is the only good bike. I put some time on one and disliked it a lot. But to say KTM is the only good bike out there is nuts.
3
Kid Spam
Posts
124
Joined
1/12/2019
Location
Raleigh, NC US
2/13/2019 6:31am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2019 6:50am
Kid Spam wrote:
I am asking the question, are the Japanese bikes significantly inferior to KTM? The consistent comments here have prompted me to ask. The responses have been...
I am asking the question, are the Japanese bikes significantly inferior to KTM? The consistent comments here have prompted me to ask. The responses have been very insightful. Unfortunately, IMO, their seems to be a very strong sentiment that KTM is superior. That's a bummer.
KDXGarage wrote:
Which bike(s) do you own and ride??
A Trail 70 with a Bassini pipe, I love narrow bars
MINI 50 SL70 XR75 XR400 CB750 CB400 CR125 RUCKUS XR250
TM125 RMZ250 RMZ450 RMZ450 RMZ250 DL650 DR650 DRZ400
YZ125 YZ250F WR400
KDX200 KX400 KX125
LC400 520EXC 450XC 250SX 125SX

200EXC
And some other bikes
I love them all.


captmoto
Posts
5122
Joined
4/22/2009
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
2/13/2019 6:42am
MXVet261 wrote:
Do KTMs still have wood screws holding the shrouds on?

.

Yes and I haven't had one come loose or seize up in a brass insert.
3
ruy
Posts
4092
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
España ES
2/13/2019 7:25am

4csHATER
Posts
551
Joined
4/11/2017
Location
The sticks, KY US
2/13/2019 7:29am
KDXGarage wrote:
Don't forget Bajaj or whatever the Indian company is. 4CS hater, thanks for going against your user name. You should have mentioned the awesome forks that...
Don't forget Bajaj or whatever the Indian company is.

4CS hater, thanks for going against your user name. You should have mentioned the awesome forks that Ktm has come with over the years...That EASY to work on shock... Etc.

Parts prices

Uh uh uh
parts prices are technically same if your buying quality parts? and the forks actually arent that bad, if you can set them up right. If your goibg to do a pankl/carillo crank for hon/suz/yam/kaw it will easily turn into a thousand dollar crank, same for cp piston for those brands cost is technically same, austrian metals are better than jap metals too. so....
1
2
4csHATER
Posts
551
Joined
4/11/2017
Location
The sticks, KY US
2/13/2019 7:37am
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit.




2
731chopper
Posts
4077
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
Fantasy
390th
2/13/2019 9:30am
4csHATER wrote:
parts prices are technically same if your buying quality parts? and the forks actually arent that bad, if you can set them up right. If your...
parts prices are technically same if your buying quality parts? and the forks actually arent that bad, if you can set them up right. If your goibg to do a pankl/carillo crank for hon/suz/yam/kaw it will easily turn into a thousand dollar crank, same for cp piston for those brands cost is technically same, austrian metals are better than jap metals too. so....
You’re overgeneralizing extraordinarily. I bought an oem throttle cable for my 150SX last year for I think around $60. I’ve bought oem Kawi and Honda throttle cables in the last year for less than $30. I also needed to buy a new cylinder for my 150 and KTM only sells it as a kit with a new piston/ring which was not cheap.

And what Austrian metals are superior to Japanese metals specifically used on motorcycles? What steel compositions? I snapped an oem KTM motor mount bolt torquing it to spec. My old man’s SXF250 had the rear shock spring snap in half. Looking at the steel you could see it was defective in the grain structure. To KTM’s credit, they did warranty the spring.

I’m not saying KTM bikes are junk, they aren’t. I’m happy in general with mine but to say it is a higher quality motorcycle than the Japanese brands is just not true in my experience.
3
1
4csHATER
Posts
551
Joined
4/11/2017
Location
The sticks, KY US
2/13/2019 11:13am
731chopper wrote:
You’re overgeneralizing extraordinarily. I bought an oem throttle cable for my 150SX last year for I think around $60. I’ve bought oem Kawi and Honda throttle...
You’re overgeneralizing extraordinarily. I bought an oem throttle cable for my 150SX last year for I think around $60. I’ve bought oem Kawi and Honda throttle cables in the last year for less than $30. I also needed to buy a new cylinder for my 150 and KTM only sells it as a kit with a new piston/ring which was not cheap.

And what Austrian metals are superior to Japanese metals specifically used on motorcycles? What steel compositions? I snapped an oem KTM motor mount bolt torquing it to spec. My old man’s SXF250 had the rear shock spring snap in half. Looking at the steel you could see it was defective in the grain structure. To KTM’s credit, they did warranty the spring.

I’m not saying KTM bikes are junk, they aren’t. I’m happy in general with mine but to say it is a higher quality motorcycle than the Japanese brands is just not true in my experience.
What you mentioned in that post is the customer service, KTM always makes it right if something happens that is unexplainable. As for your cylinder and piston combo, did you look up the prices for the kawasaki kx150cc two stroke or the yamaha yz 150 two stroke, or the Cr 150 two stroke or the rm 150 two stroke?

1
3
kb228
Posts
6161
Joined
1/31/2018
Location
Mansfield, OH US
2/13/2019 11:32am
4csHATER wrote:
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325173/s1200_9E5D14A7_CA56_46C1_BDF1_75BC9E346F13.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2019/02/13/325172/s1200_A2D3BF0F_04C5_4133_9E8A_F10341D1EC80.jpg[/img]
here you goPrice difference is ten dollars on a piston kit.




Wow that ktm piston is $100 more(retail/dealership price) than a CP piston and its not even as good. LOL LIGHTYEARS AHEAD BROS
1
2
731chopper
Posts
4077
Joined
1/2/2015
Location
DFW, TX US
Fantasy
390th
2/13/2019 11:41am Edited Date/Time 2/13/2019 11:42am
4csHATER wrote:
What you mentioned in that post is the customer service, KTM always makes it right if something happens that is unexplainable. As for your cylinder and...
What you mentioned in that post is the customer service, KTM always makes it right if something happens that is unexplainable. As for your cylinder and piston combo, did you look up the prices for the kawasaki kx150cc two stroke or the yamaha yz 150 two stroke, or the Cr 150 two stroke or the rm 150 two stroke?

Yes, buying an OEM Kawasaki cylinder, piston and rings is almost $200 less than KTM for the last generation KX125. $799.59 for my KTM 150 compared to $614.98 for the Kawasaki.

The OEM YZ 125 cylinder is $359.48 plus $97.21 for the piston and ring so $456.69, nearly $350 less than the KTM 150.

I take it that you're trying to imply that I can't compare the parts costs because Yamaha doesn't make a 150? The KTM 125 cylinder and piston kit is $689.11 so still over $200 more than Yamaha.

I don't believe KTM is the only brand standing behind their products. KTM attempts to market themselves as a premium brand and they've done a good job at it but that doesn't mean they're the only owns manufacturing a good product and taking care of their customers. The last Kawi I bought new, a 2014 KX250F, I paid less for than what a new KTM 125 would've cost and I never had any issues with it.

I don't like riding 4-strokes anymore so my modern bike is now a KTM and good on them for continuing to develop new 2-strokes but I don't buy this better quality than the Japanese bikes narrative that some people try to create.
2

Post a reply to: Japan defeats the world...until now? I don't understand

The Latest