An Informal Look at AMA C Class (updated page 3)

5/30/2017 2:56pm
Markee wrote:
I can't believe there is a actual 450C class. What's next a 7-11 500cc 2 stroke class?
That's for guys like me who are just weekend warriors and can feel the stomach giggle around when hitting bumps.
Mx286
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5/30/2017 3:07pm
There's always going to be fast C riders period. Most don't understand it at a national level. Everyone gets all butt hurt because someone is faster than them or their kid. Yea there's sandbaggers but if they raced up a class and dropped back down trying to do the national they will get caught. This is the day and age where you can't hide anything from anyone.

There's also 5 C classes this year. Other classes got cut so they could bring in the $$$ the C class brings in.
doghouse
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5/30/2017 3:31pm
Markee wrote:
I can't believe there is a actual 450C class. What's next a 7-11 500cc 2 stroke class?
I'd pay good money to watch.
Johnny Depp
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5/30/2017 3:53pm
My daughter's and wife and all my family learned about our sport early in my riding years. No result could be given without asking "out of how many?'.

3rd out of 5? Blah

The Shop

Ted722
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5/30/2017 4:00pm
My daughter's and wife and all my family learned about our sport early in my riding years. No result could be given without asking "out of...
My daughter's and wife and all my family learned about our sport early in my riding years. No result could be given without asking "out of how many?'.

3rd out of 5? Blah
Same here! Laughing
kburgie
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5/30/2017 4:20pm
The best place to look for sandbaggers would be the Loretta's lap times themselves. If the top C riders aren't matching the top B riders, who aren't matching the top A riders, then it's fair regardless of class at the local level. If the laps are similar then you've got an issue.
SoCalMX70
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5/30/2017 4:34pm
This reminds me of that big amateur event years ago where some kid sandbagged, won a truck... then had to give it back. What was that event called again? Spectacular failure if I am remembering it correctly...
Johnny Depp
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5/30/2017 4:41pm
The premise that a sport allows riders to decide for themselves what class to enter is and always has been the problem creating" sandbaggers". There is nothing at all new about it.

If promoters would decide to move into the new century with some sort of on the spot rider grading system paring equal riders together it would revolutionize the sport. Put the fastest together period. Then the next group and so on.

Spectators and riders alike prefer a close race. This is best achieved by matching lap times in the same group. Currently we have a class for any 3 riders that want to join, by engine size, wheel size, age, 2t, 4t, left handed, red headed, by zip code etc. Promoters love having more chances for you to sign up for another class and pay another entry fee. Imagine 200 riders showing up and having 10 classes full with 20 on each gate..
752dad
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5/30/2017 6:34pm
The premise that a sport allows riders to decide for themselves what class to enter is and always has been the problem creating" [b]sandbaggers[/b]". There is...
The premise that a sport allows riders to decide for themselves what class to enter is and always has been the problem creating" sandbaggers". There is nothing at all new about it.

If promoters would decide to move into the new century with some sort of on the spot rider grading system paring equal riders together it would revolutionize the sport. Put the fastest together period. Then the next group and so on.

Spectators and riders alike prefer a close race. This is best achieved by matching lap times in the same group. Currently we have a class for any 3 riders that want to join, by engine size, wheel size, age, 2t, 4t, left handed, red headed, by zip code etc. Promoters love having more chances for you to sign up for another class and pay another entry fee. Imagine 200 riders showing up and having 10 classes full with 20 on each gate..
Baja ran an event this past weekend with 3 groups of 3 classes. Each group of 3 ran thru their whole program in order, one practice per group then 2 20min motos in order. Each group of 3 had designated start times like 9:00 group a 12:00 group b and 3:00 group c.
Most classes had 12-25 riders
Seemed good for the first go around.
KC
mark_swart
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5/30/2017 7:03pm
Eliminating C at Lorettas would actually be great for the sport, it would make participation in the local AMA advancement system relevant, and probably help sandbagging across the board. If C riders are living at training facilities and whipping it off of 90 foot triples....those aren't C riders.
Kudos to OP for that great research!! I also wonder....how many C class champions ever went on to Factory rides? Or even nationals? I'm guessing not many.
Rizzo
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5/30/2017 7:10pm
TDeath21 wrote:
How about not having A, B, and C qualifiers? Just have the qualifier and take the top X amount of people that would be A, B...
How about not having A, B, and C qualifiers? Just have the qualifier and take the top X amount of people that would be A, B, and C combined. Then once these people make it to Loretta's, separate them to A, B, and C based on timed qualifying. Have the B and C races just be a consolation race so any rider intentionally not putting in a fast qualifying time won't be considered a national champion if they win the B or C class.

I'm just throwing an idea out there. I'm sure this might have its own share of flaws, but maybe it's something we can discuss.
This is similar to RC Car racing. Majority of the Nationals or big events have Pro class and Open Class. In open (which would be anything non-pro, so A/B/C) you run timed practice and are placed in qualifiers accordingly. When Qualifying, you can move up based on your finishes. After that, you're placed in the E main or A main, wherever you qualified based on entries. You race your main and top 3 bump to the next main with the goal of making the A main. The A main is the top 15 and gets all the glory of the non Pro class. My point, take away A, B, C classes in moto and have open and Pro, then you have only one battle, separating the pro's vs non pro's. Sprint cars do it. It will straighten out quick as someone having to ride 20 motos vs 4 is gonna real quick that its too much work and energy to sandbag.
rpoint116
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5/30/2017 8:10pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2017 8:12pm
Once I out grew the 100cc class in the early 70's, my dad put me in the 250int class. I was too big for 125's and the beginner/novice/ c class was too squirly.

It took me four years to get to the top five of the B class, then he moved me to local pro. I may have only won the B class for five times in 250 & a few more times in the open class.
Ebs
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5/30/2017 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 5/30/2017 8:38pm
What is the motive for one to want to stay down in class? Big fish, little pond preference to life? Do C riders actually make money winning races?
kkawboy14
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5/30/2017 8:40pm
Ebs wrote:
What is the motive for one to want to stay down in class? Big fish, little pond preference to life? Do C riders actually make money...
What is the motive for one to want to stay down in class? Big fish, little pond preference to life? Do C riders actually make money winning races?
Sweet trophys helps em bag the honeys at the club!
mx510
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5/30/2017 10:41pm
After looking ove results from Washougals regional, why do SO MANY kids from Southern California come all the way up here to qualify? Kids from Riverside, CA at Washougal? That's ridiculous.
5/30/2017 11:05pm
If you go to lorettas it's clearly obvious the c class is on average slower than b, b slower than a.

And the gap between them is usually quite large.

The a class at lorettas is almost handicapped in this comparison in the sense often top talent moves to pro skipping lorettas...but also a fast b rider is often same pace as a top pro outdoors... just not as polished for 35 minutes or as technically sound to do the pro grind week in and week out.

does sandbagging happen? Yep

Is it a huge issue? Nope

Either you are fast enough or you aren't... it isn't a birth right to go to lorettas... and the c class isn't viewed by anyone in the industry as a real title. It's the only class on the line outside of the now gone girls 11 and under class that runs 15 min motos... and all sponsors and manufacturers are well aware that the top c riders aren't truly first year racers.

Once you go B tells the tale... and everyone knows it, and the kids who have raced lorettas on 50s on up are immediately not eligeable, but more importantly have no desire to ever race c, as those kids are all headed in their minds to the top.

The sad fact is people who can't make lorettas and claim it's due to sandbagging don't fully understand the pace of national level racing. Every class is fast by weekend warrior standards, on a track as tight as lorettas the 65 and 85cc top kids are faster than most members of this site.
5/31/2017 3:14am
I have seen guys run A at non AMA events then run C class at qualifiers but I have to agree that once they actually make it to the ranch it shakes out. You can just look at the lap times between the C and B class to see the difference. The B class is closer to the A class times than C to B....

I have a kid that rides with us that made it last year to the 250C class. He led the 3rd moto for a while and conditioning got him. He could ride with 99% of the local B riders but once he stepped on the national stage his lap times were inline with the C class.

Oh, after running C at the ranch one year he has been moved up to B by the AMA. He didn't overall that high so I "think" if you make the C class it is a one time thing!

I am hoping he moves back near us and we are going to try to get him back for a B class run, along with my son in C! Got to have dreams lol!
Markee
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5/31/2017 4:57am
Markee wrote:
I can't believe there is a actual 450C class. What's next a 7-11 500cc 2 stroke class?
That's for guys like me who are just weekend warriors and can feel the stomach giggle around when hitting bumps.
Lol, I here ya man. I figured you be in a + class. I think C I think kids.
nascarnate326
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5/31/2017 4:58am
I think the issue is that C class at Lorettas and C class at my local track are two different skill levels.

IMO C class is someone learning to do jumps and keep their self upright. Its the bottom class aka learner class. AKA goon class. Unfortunately its turned into B riders that want to get trophies or feel good about them selfs because they lapped some trail riders/old guys while having an easier way to Lorettas.
5/31/2017 6:01am
Very well written post by the OP. The AMA a lifetime ago was a good sanctioning body that helped organize and grow our sport. Now they're all about money, corruption and have been hurting MX big time. The joke of the way things are run doesn't just effect the amateur national side of things but are greatly effecting the local racing scene. This is all contributing to the decline.

The only way to run these races now in my opinion is to take all subjectiveness out of it. It just needs to be age and bike class. Driver license, birth certificate, bike size.. Done. You got lapped? Practice more and get better. Definitely bring back he 125 classes for the younger kids that will help also. The only classes that run smooth at the local races with no drama are the age classes. Every C class or D class there are fighting parents and participants. Notice that I didn't say B class? Because its become such a joke there is no more B class at the local level. Just D and Professional C riders "going to Loretta's" what a joke.

I've seen very talented kids many times get hurt before LL's after easily qualifying at a regional then hold themselves back for a whole year to go again in C class. Too much importance is put on it to have it be a subjective ability designation...



Racer142
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5/31/2017 8:11am
Why not make amateur racing more relevant? I listened to the pod cast the other night with DC and he mentioned a problem with the training facilities and riders not racing locally and on the other side we have riders turning pro straight out of b class like Dungey Forney and Ciancarulo. Why not have simple rules like;

1. Any rider that has ever qualified for Loretta it's not eligible for C class

2. If you have never qualified for the national you must race C class and place top 15 in a regional to advance to B class. There will not be a C class at Loretta.

3. You may only advance to A after qualifying top 15 in a regional in the B class.

4. You may only earn your pro license after qualifying top 15 at a regional in the A class. You are not allowed to race professionally until the weekend directly following the Loretta Lynn national.

This would force riders to race their respective class and clear rules to move up. Numberso could easily be adjusted to fit the respective demand.
BSFL
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5/31/2017 8:46am
I think the issue is that C class at Lorettas and C class at my local track are two different skill levels. IMO C class is...
I think the issue is that C class at Lorettas and C class at my local track are two different skill levels.

IMO C class is someone learning to do jumps and keep their self upright. Its the bottom class aka learner class. AKA goon class. Unfortunately its turned into B riders that want to get trophies or feel good about them selfs because they lapped some trail riders/old guys while having an easier way to Lorettas.
Generally the really fast C guys(mostly kids) for any given year move up to B the next year. These are kids coming up after starting out on minis for 1-3 years. They are not beginners, nor are they ready for B class. IMO the learner goon class is the beginner classes.

I started out racing on 85's for 2 yrs, then superminis for 1 and then 2 in C on a 125. I remember wanting to move myself up to B my 2nd year in C but my parents said not until I broke the top ten at GNC finals or Spring Nationals here in Tx. It never happened and my 5th year of racing I moved myself up to B and was mid to last pack at national events. Honestly though I got more satisfaction out of running 30th in B then 10th in C. I'm talking national level races not local.
jrminiquad
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5/31/2017 9:00am
You can have all the rules in the world, but if they are not enforced by the AMA, it doesn't matter.

There is already the rule about anyone who has went to the Loretta championship in any class, even mini's, you can never race in C class again, anywhere, ever. That typically does not seem to be a problem, at least in what I have seen.

The main problem is the riders (and most likely the parents of young riders) who are determined hell or high water that little Johnny is going to the Big Show, regardless of what class it is in.

The AMA tells you that Johnny can no longer race C class anymore because he did well enough to advance to B class the following year. Johnny's daddy says "I don't accept that", here's my $50 - make Johnny C class again so he can try for Loretta's, and the AMA says "sure".

It's all about the money, period.

Perfect example: most AMA regions for the road to Loretta's have eight area qualifiers. Each qualifier only advances the top eight riders. So, 8 areas X 8 riders = 64 maximum riders for the regional. Well, so far for the Mid-East regional coming up this week MX Sports has already taken over 70 pre-registrations for the race. A large number of these are people who did not qualify, but have signed up as alternates. This even includes a rider who came in LAST place (like 24th or 29th) in their area race, but sends in money to race the regional. Most likely, all racers will be allowed to race, not just the guaranteed spots through qualifiers (at the qualifiers).

I got news for you, if you are not finishing it the top eight at your area qualifier, there ain't no way you will be finishing in the top six at a regional. What will happen though is little Johnny will take a tumble right out of the gate and and the bike will take a big ole left hook into a decent rider who actually does have a chance at qualifying.

Again, all this is a mute point because it's all about the money. If you can invent a product or service that would be beneficial to your young budding superstar, parents will line up three blocks deep with their wallet out to buy it. The AMA and MX Sports found this out long ago, and are absolute geniuses.

Where is the AMA in all of this? I don't know, I actually provided them a spreadsheet of all the B riders racing C and simply asked the director of competition and the assistant director if I should be referring to the Advancement List put out by the AMA, or the website's rider search that shows all of the appealed riders. I also asked how an appealed "non-competitive" C class rider can sweep all of his four classes at an area qualifier if he is truly "non-competitive".

The AMA? - no response to date two weeks later.
brightlights
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5/31/2017 9:09am
The stage is set the way it is for a reason. $$
Promoters are content, and with no growing opportunity at the top where careers happen, just about any opportunity to get noticed, get picked up by a team that can give you the resources to be competitive at the top level, or just get past having a future of becoming just a very fast A rider who struggles as a privateer at certian pro races that he can afford to go to all starts with trying to get to expert speed before ever competing in the B class. So either those that excell early, or those who buy enough time to get to expert speed while remaining C class eligible are about the only ones who will ever see what the "leg up" that the factories swoop in and give them is all about. They are just about the only ones who have a chance at getting on a career path through the B and A classes. (Talking about the kind of support that the kids who win the B and A classes typically have.) The factories are content and the promoters even more content. Not enough new professional rider opportunities over the last 20 years to even matter, and an amatuer program that only get reshaped if it means more classes/sign ups, and the flowers just arent getting watered in this sport.(example, if youve ever scored ama pro points you must race down in age as a vet to either +25 or +40. Basically all about creating slower classes more people can be competitive in to increase sign ups, even though scoring points 20 years ago has nothing to do with the level a rider might be at who is now coming off a 15 year hiatus. Hes probably fatter and slower than guys who kept riding, but its more about increasing sign ups than anything.) There are a few very fat and happy who could care less as long as their little boat doesnt get rocked. The factories evidently dont see much opportunity for more bike sales by further nurturing the racing side of things, so what we see is the same stagnant shit weve seen for 20 years plus, and now with fewer who can afford it. Go C class riders!!! Hope the home schooling and MTF type camps PAY OFF for you in mfctrs contingency $$, and maybe a ride in the future. The whole world is watching to see the next 5-8 riders who will make it out of the amatuers into the great big world of professional MX that AMA and promoters have created.
Im sure this is all this way for reasons my outsider peabrain cannot fathom and has nothing to do with a lack of leadership who desires to grow the number of opportunities in this sport on a larger scale. Did the death threats over a rider's union in the late 90s really happen?
dirtdog36
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5/31/2017 9:25am
C class gets the heat but B class is where the real sandbagging happens

Watch top 5 B class lap times at the ranch and compare them to A class

You should HAVE to ride A to line up at Hangton
dirtdog36
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5/31/2017 9:27am
Ps. Who cares about c class anyways. For a bunch of guys that say how worthless c class is there is a bunch of butt hurt going around Smile
wardy
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5/31/2017 9:27am
So little time and so much fiction in here.

not sure I need to retype it all.

maybe tonight after work.

needless to say there is some "spot on stuff" in this post.

but much is not.

64 riders a class is bullshit period tried to fix that two years ago and didn't happen.

"bullseyeing" locations with regionals and areas to get the best bang for the buck, good for the big boys kills the local stuff off.

but hey one of these days there won't be full gates, because there won't be any place for a kid "go and learn"

my question would be this and I have asked many. WHO bought there FIRST AMA card to race at an Area? you all know that answer.

and by the way. the "spread sheet" i would like to see it and scrutinize it a little bit as have been a part of appeals process and it's not a "money only" deal. If it was it sure the hell wouldn't be 50.00? 500.00 then yea it's a money deal. There is normally very few appeals.


anyway I am sure as usual in this place it will "AMA"s fault. but really anyone got a better plan out there nationally?

have a great day.
5/31/2017 9:33am
SoCalMX70 wrote:
This reminds me of that big amateur event years ago where some kid sandbagged, won a truck... then had to give it back. What was that...
This reminds me of that big amateur event years ago where some kid sandbagged, won a truck... then had to give it back. What was that event called again? Spectacular failure if I am remembering it correctly...
Yeah, that was a crazy concept. If I remember correctly, the winner was from the UK.
Johnny Depp
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5/31/2017 9:47am
TDeath21 wrote:
How about not having A, B, and C qualifiers? Just have the qualifier and take the top X amount of people that would be A, B...
How about not having A, B, and C qualifiers? Just have the qualifier and take the top X amount of people that would be A, B, and C combined. Then once these people make it to Loretta's, separate them to A, B, and C based on timed qualifying. Have the B and C races just be a consolation race so any rider intentionally not putting in a fast qualifying time won't be considered a national champion if they win the B or C class.

I'm just throwing an idea out there. I'm sure this might have its own share of flaws, but maybe it's something we can discuss.
Rizzo wrote:
This is similar to RC Car racing. Majority of the Nationals or big events have Pro class and Open Class. In open (which would be anything...
This is similar to RC Car racing. Majority of the Nationals or big events have Pro class and Open Class. In open (which would be anything non-pro, so A/B/C) you run timed practice and are placed in qualifiers accordingly. When Qualifying, you can move up based on your finishes. After that, you're placed in the E main or A main, wherever you qualified based on entries. You race your main and top 3 bump to the next main with the goal of making the A main. The A main is the top 15 and gets all the glory of the non Pro class. My point, take away A, B, C classes in moto and have open and Pro, then you have only one battle, separating the pro's vs non pro's. Sprint cars do it. It will straighten out quick as someone having to ride 20 motos vs 4 is gonna real quick that its too much work and energy to sandbag.
That is a cool system. Designed to stop sandbagging. Timed qualifying then Top 3 get moved up to the next class and have to race with them. It wouldn't pay to do it, and those that are ready to advance get a trial by fire.
Tracktor
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5/31/2017 9:48am
Racer142 wrote:
Why not make amateur racing more relevant? I listened to the pod cast the other night with DC and he mentioned a problem with the training...
Why not make amateur racing more relevant? I listened to the pod cast the other night with DC and he mentioned a problem with the training facilities and riders not racing locally and on the other side we have riders turning pro straight out of b class like Dungey Forney and Ciancarulo. Why not have simple rules like;

1. Any rider that has ever qualified for Loretta it's not eligible for C class

2. If you have never qualified for the national you must race C class and place top 15 in a regional to advance to B class. There will not be a C class at Loretta.

3. You may only advance to A after qualifying top 15 in a regional in the B class.

4. You may only earn your pro license after qualifying top 15 at a regional in the A class. You are not allowed to race professionally until the weekend directly following the Loretta Lynn national.

This would force riders to race their respective class and clear rules to move up. Numberso could easily be adjusted to fit the respective demand.
Well, that might work if AMA was the only promoter but they aren't. There is a much larger contingent of riders that have no desire to follow the AMA path of amateur racing.
On the other hand why should a kid race C when he wants to move to B right away and ride with faster riders? Same with being a local A which can pay pretty well.
Not everyone advances in speed the same so a "one size fits all" option doesn't really work...................

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