So does the 2017 CRF450 prove that the current production aluminium frame 450's are as light as they will get?

Falcon wrote:

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter: -If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or...

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter:
-If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or not,
-If your frame is made from aluminum or steel,
-If your suspension is set up properly or not,
-If your fasteners are cheap, titanium or otherwise,
-If you can "feel" the difference or not.

In the physics world, moving a physical body can be boiled down to a VERY simple equation: F=MA, where F=force, M=mass and A=acceleration.
If you want to increase A, decrease M and/or increase F.

The real-world result is this: less mass equals less force required to gain any acceleration. That means less HP necessary to accelerate to any speed, less force necessary for the brakes to stop you, less force required by your tires to change direction, and less force required by your own body to initiate any change in direction or attitude of the machine.

There is absolutely a performance benefit to reducing any amount of weight on a motorcycle.

ML512 wrote:

Okay, now I'm definitely doing a weight comparison to shut people up.

Falcon wrote:

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter: -If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or...

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter:
-If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or not,
-If your frame is made from aluminum or steel,
-If your suspension is set up properly or not,
-If your fasteners are cheap, titanium or otherwise,
-If you can "feel" the difference or not.

In the physics world, moving a physical body can be boiled down to a VERY simple equation: F=MA, where F=force, M=mass and A=acceleration.
If you want to increase A, decrease M and/or increase F.

The real-world result is this: less mass equals less force required to gain any acceleration. That means less HP necessary to accelerate to any speed, less force necessary for the brakes to stop you, less force required by your tires to change direction, and less force required by your own body to initiate any change in direction or attitude of the machine.

There is absolutely a performance benefit to reducing any amount of weight on a motorcycle.

ML512 wrote:

Okay, now I'm definitely doing a weight comparison to shut people up.

Falcon wrote:

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter: -If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or...

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter:
-If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or not,
-If your frame is made from aluminum or steel,
-If your suspension is set up properly or not,
-If your fasteners are cheap, titanium or otherwise,
-If you can "feel" the difference or not.

In the physics world, moving a physical body can be boiled down to a VERY simple equation: F=MA, where F=force, M=mass and A=acceleration.
If you want to increase A, decrease M and/or increase F.

The real-world result is this: less mass equals less force required to gain any acceleration. That means less HP necessary to accelerate to any speed, less force necessary for the brakes to stop you, less force required by your tires to change direction, and less force required by your own body to initiate any change in direction or attitude of the machine.

There is absolutely a performance benefit to reducing any amount of weight on a motorcycle.

GrapeApe wrote:

I like physics as much as anyone, but we're talking about 5 lbs on a 230 lb machine. Not noticeable to 99.9%.

ML512 wrote:

Okay, now I'm definitely doing a weight comparison to shut people up.

colintrax wrote:

That'd be cool. Crf450 vs 450SXF. Compare the engine (with the battery on the ktm), frame, swing arm, forks, shock, plastics (with hardware), gas tank, triple...

That'd be cool. Crf450 vs 450SXF. Compare the engine (with the battery on the ktm), frame, swing arm, forks, shock, plastics (with hardware), gas tank, triple clamps, subframe, wiring harness/ecu, everything. I'm gonna bet most of KTM's weight savings is in the frame, subframe, and swing arm. With a little in hardware, and the engine. And of course the air forks/exhaust.

kaptkaos wrote:

I played the weight game on my MTB and it was fun for a while. But on an MX bike, a lb or two doesnt matter...

I played the weight game on my MTB and it was fun for a while. But on an MX bike, a lb or two doesnt matter as much because I am not the motor.

When Honda gets the button standard and within a few lbs of KTM, they will send the orange bikes back to where they belong!

Im sorry to the younger folks, but I remember KTMs back when they where white and they sucked donkey *****.

I admit they are now a much better brand and they have forced the Japs to up their game. KTM has a place, just never in my garage. Yes, I am an old school red koolaid drinker.

Myke wrote:

One would think with the complete Honda redesign they would try to get a little closer to the KTM 450's weight. Does this mean that we...

One would think with the complete Honda redesign they would try to get a little closer to the KTM 450's weight. Does this mean that we are not going to see the aluminum frame production bikes get any lighter? Is this the delay on adding the magic button? Is the steel frame that much lighter?

I completely understand you can dump money into Ti parts and such to get it lighter but I am talking showroom floor production bikes.

Opinions?

ML512 wrote:

I wouldn't exactly say that, as Honda added about three pounds by switching back to spring forks and their twin exhaust system does weigh a bit...

I wouldn't exactly say that, as Honda added about three pounds by switching back to spring forks and their twin exhaust system does weigh a bit more than most of the standard singles. So right there, weight can be lost (although duals are here to stay, I was more-or-less speaking for the other manufacturers who should be able to trim, like Yamaha and Suzuki). Also, I think the Japanese models could trim some weight in their subframes and airbox like KTM did, they've really cut back on the overall size of their subframe.

Falcon wrote:

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter: -If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or...

Guys, lighter weight will always translate into a better racing machine, in any discipline. No matter:
-If you lost those 5 lbs from your wastline or not,
-If your frame is made from aluminum or steel,
-If your suspension is set up properly or not,
-If your fasteners are cheap, titanium or otherwise,
-If you can "feel" the difference or not.

In the physics world, moving a physical body can be boiled down to a VERY simple equation: F=MA, where F=force, M=mass and A=acceleration.
If you want to increase A, decrease M and/or increase F.

The real-world result is this: less mass equals less force required to gain any acceleration. That means less HP necessary to accelerate to any speed, less force necessary for the brakes to stop you, less force required by your tires to change direction, and less force required by your own body to initiate any change in direction or attitude of the machine.

There is absolutely a performance benefit to reducing any amount of weight on a motorcycle.

mulletman wrote:

You need to read on "mass moment of inertia". Where the weight is located is vital once rotation is concerned.

sebastianer wrote:

think of this if you ride a yamaha 450 2017 with only little fuel in and then ride a ktm 450 2017 with full fuel tank...

think of this if you ride a yamaha 450 2017 with only little fuel in and then ride a ktm 450 2017 with full fuel tank ? then you have a ktm that is heavier than the yamaha but does it feel heavier? probebly not. actual weight dosent matter its where the weight is and how its translated to the rider. so don't stir blind on the weight numbers go out and ride it or read reviews. or do you feel that much diffrent when you ride a bike full with fuel or when its close to empty ? that is around 15punds different and i dont feel it.

sebastianer wrote:

think of this if you ride a yamaha 450 2017 with only little fuel in and then ride a ktm 450 2017 with full fuel tank...

think of this if you ride a yamaha 450 2017 with only little fuel in and then ride a ktm 450 2017 with full fuel tank ? then you have a ktm that is heavier than the yamaha but does it feel heavier? probebly not. actual weight dosent matter its where the weight is and how its translated to the rider. so don't stir blind on the weight numbers go out and ride it or read reviews. or do you feel that much diffrent when you ride a bike full with fuel or when its close to empty ? that is around 15punds different and i dont feel it.

Phillip_Lamb wrote:

to add to these comments, the biggest point of weight on the bikes is going to be the engines. Ktm shaved a good amount of weight...

to add to these comments, the biggest point of weight on the bikes is going to be the engines. Ktm shaved a good amount of weight from this area. Suzukis engine is almost ten years old

Falcon wrote:

Hypothetical situation: Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled...

Hypothetical situation:

Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled riders land from a jump followed by a straight. They drag race to the next turn which is a considerably long distance down a very well-groomed track that offers identical traction across the entire surface. Every possible factor is equal, except for one: one bike weighs 15 pounds more than the other.

Which bike would you rather be on?

Now, considering all that, let's assume that you are fit. Let's assume that you will maintain your bike. Let's assume that there will never be exactly equal conditions such as the one I described above. Let's assume you may value some feature of one brand over another. Wouldn't you still rather have a lighter bike in a competition setting if you could? I sure would.

Falcon wrote:

Hypothetical situation: Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled...

Hypothetical situation:

Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled riders land from a jump followed by a straight. They drag race to the next turn which is a considerably long distance down a very well-groomed track that offers identical traction across the entire surface. Every possible factor is equal, except for one: one bike weighs 15 pounds more than the other.

Which bike would you rather be on?

Now, considering all that, let's assume that you are fit. Let's assume that you will maintain your bike. Let's assume that there will never be exactly equal conditions such as the one I described above. Let's assume you may value some feature of one brand over another. Wouldn't you still rather have a lighter bike in a competition setting if you could? I sure would.

kott0n wrote:

I guess right up until the moment my frame broke in half and I face planted into the ground.

Falcon wrote:

Hypothetical situation: Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled...

Hypothetical situation:

Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled riders land from a jump followed by a straight. They drag race to the next turn which is a considerably long distance down a very well-groomed track that offers identical traction across the entire surface. Every possible factor is equal, except for one: one bike weighs 15 pounds more than the other.

Which bike would you rather be on?

Now, considering all that, let's assume that you are fit. Let's assume that you will maintain your bike. Let's assume that there will never be exactly equal conditions such as the one I described above. Let's assume you may value some feature of one brand over another. Wouldn't you still rather have a lighter bike in a competition setting if you could? I sure would.

Falcon wrote:

Hypothetical situation: Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled...

Hypothetical situation:

Two bikes, each with the exact same HP output, with the exact same tire pressure and identical end resulting spring rates, with equally skilled riders land from a jump followed by a straight. They drag race to the next turn which is a considerably long distance down a very well-groomed track that offers identical traction across the entire surface. Every possible factor is equal, except for one: one bike weighs 15 pounds more than the other.

Which bike would you rather be on?

Now, considering all that, let's assume that you are fit. Let's assume that you will maintain your bike. Let's assume that there will never be exactly equal conditions such as the one I described above. Let's assume you may value some feature of one brand over another. Wouldn't you still rather have a lighter bike in a competition setting if you could? I sure would.