KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

FreshTopEnd wrote:

That sentiment means not a wit to creditors who hold the cards, no matter how spot on the description of what would be ideal is.  Hopefully...

That sentiment means not a wit to creditors who hold the cards, no matter how spot on the description of what would be ideal is.  Hopefully they make things right going forward.  

Spoonguy wrote:

The company has been proven untrustworthy.

quadzrulebro wrote:

Their CYTD market share numbers here in the US certainly reflect that sentiment.

Dirty Points wrote:

Do you have decent numbers to share? A fair portion of that may have simply been buyers waiting around for expected steep discounts.

Fouled Plug wrote:

This. The whole deal feels a little ignorant.

FreshTopEnd wrote:

The lesson for any business - a lesson as old as time - is don't let one client dominate your revenue.  That risk will always be...

The lesson for any business - a lesson as old as time - is don't let one client dominate your revenue.  That risk will always be there if the survival tipping point  for revenue comes from one client.  It doesn't matter what industry it is.   

It's the same for team sponsorships.

If that's the only way to do business, and it might be, you accept those risks.

APLMAN99 wrote:

The Walmart/Vlasic pickle story is a great example showing that it doesn’t have to take a bankruptcy to be at the mercy of a single, large...

The Walmart/Vlasic pickle story is a great example showing that it doesn’t have to take a bankruptcy to be at the mercy of a single, large customer. 

Even with many customers, the accounts receivable can be a nightmare. I had a couple of good friends who were electricians. They were getting paid a decent hourly wage, but they saw the difference between what the customer was being billed and what they were getting paid and decided that they were going into business for themselves. Took them a few months to make the jump and they were pretty secretive about it until they quit their jobs. 

The first couple of months they were ecstatic!  They were underbidding their old boss by 10% but still billing significantly higher than what their old hourly wage had been. They were just a 2 person business and they were more busy than they ever expected to be. 

Then after 3 or so months in business, the wheels started to fall off. Even though they were giving customers great deals, they were barely collecting half of their billings in any sort of a timely manner. Nearly 30% of their billings were basically ignored and never got paid. Even the invoices that they did get paid on were averaging far over 90 days out, even for work that they did for ‘reputable’ contractors. 

A year later they were back with their old employer who was nice enough to purchase their vehicles and equipment at steep discounts and was paying them just about the same as he had been the year before. It was an expensive lesson that business isn’t always as straightforward as it seems, and you had better factor in troubles with collecting into your pricing!  

FreshTopEnd wrote:

That sentiment means not a wit to creditors who hold the cards, no matter how spot on the description of what would be ideal is.  Hopefully...

That sentiment means not a wit to creditors who hold the cards, no matter how spot on the description of what would be ideal is.  Hopefully they make things right going forward.  

Spoonguy wrote:

The company has been proven untrustworthy.

quadzrulebro wrote:

Their CYTD market share numbers here in the US certainly reflect that sentiment.

FreshTopEnd wrote:

The lesson for any business - a lesson as old as time - is don't let one client dominate your revenue.  That risk will always be...

The lesson for any business - a lesson as old as time - is don't let one client dominate your revenue.  That risk will always be there if the survival tipping point  for revenue comes from one client.  It doesn't matter what industry it is.   

It's the same for team sponsorships.

If that's the only way to do business, and it might be, you accept those risks.

APLMAN99 wrote:

The Walmart/Vlasic pickle story is a great example showing that it doesn’t have to take a bankruptcy to be at the mercy of a single, large...

The Walmart/Vlasic pickle story is a great example showing that it doesn’t have to take a bankruptcy to be at the mercy of a single, large customer. 

Even with many customers, the accounts receivable can be a nightmare. I had a couple of good friends who were electricians. They were getting paid a decent hourly wage, but they saw the difference between what the customer was being billed and what they were getting paid and decided that they were going into business for themselves. Took them a few months to make the jump and they were pretty secretive about it until they quit their jobs. 

The first couple of months they were ecstatic!  They were underbidding their old boss by 10% but still billing significantly higher than what their old hourly wage had been. They were just a 2 person business and they were more busy than they ever expected to be. 

Then after 3 or so months in business, the wheels started to fall off. Even though they were giving customers great deals, they were barely collecting half of their billings in any sort of a timely manner. Nearly 30% of their billings were basically ignored and never got paid. Even the invoices that they did get paid on were averaging far over 90 days out, even for work that they did for ‘reputable’ contractors. 

A year later they were back with their old employer who was nice enough to purchase their vehicles and equipment at steep discounts and was paying them just about the same as he had been the year before. It was an expensive lesson that business isn’t always as straightforward as it seems, and you had better factor in troubles with collecting into your pricing!  

kopfjaeger wrote:

This is very true. I have experienced the same in the private security/executive protection sphere. Whether working for individuals or some of the largest, most profitable...

This is very true. I have experienced the same in the private security/executive protection sphere. Whether working for individuals or some of the largest, most profitable companies, collecting on work done and billed can be a nightmare. Some of the “smaller clients” are the quickest to pay. Amazing how “important the coverage is” until it is time to pay after the service was provided! You have to be able to float the bill if you pay your contractors up front, but better yet is a cadre that is patient, understanding, and not depending on that job to pay his bills for the next month! It would be nice if everyone worked on a COD model!  

Spoonguy wrote:

The company has been proven untrustworthy.

quadzrulebro wrote:

Their CYTD market share numbers here in the US certainly reflect that sentiment.

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Okay, fair enough, the have to re earn trust.  On a human level I get it, but on this business level I'm not sure its that...

Okay, fair enough, the have to re earn trust.  On a human level I get it, but on this business level I'm not sure its that relevant. Eventually people who want to make money with and off them will do business with them again.  Maybe those suppliers and other stakeholders do more to protect themselves on the front end.  Ideally there is trust, but that's a thin veneer when dealing with a company financed by lenders.  I don't think you can equate the dynamics of a mom and pop local business to a multinational conglomerate.

 

quadzrulebro wrote:

I'm referring to national motorcycle market share here in the US.  For the first 6 months of the 2025 calendar year, only HD has lost more.

Dirty Points wrote:

Do you have decent numbers to share? A fair portion of that may have simply been buyers waiting around for expected steep discounts.

rmgsxr wrote:

Lets say that over a rolling 12 months Yamaha sold 4360 YZ250F's and that number is up right at 800 units from the previous year. KTM...

Lets say that over a rolling 12 months Yamaha sold 4360 YZ250F's and that number is up right at 800 units from the previous year. KTM sold 1170 SXF250's during the same period and that number is down 360 units from the year before. 

Is that consumer confidence or waiting for rebates?

jeffbrines wrote:

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so...

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so do your best to ignore my bias. As a trail/enduro guy, I really hope the transfer of ownership to Bajaj does not negatively impact the quality of future products, something only time will tell. In any event, my "deep dive" would never pass muster at a real sell side bank, but it is more comprehensive than what you'll usually find around the forums. 

In any event, feel free to read my thoughts here or if you are a substacker, here. 

Cheers y'all! 

jeffbrines wrote:

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so...

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so do your best to ignore my bias. As a trail/enduro guy, I really hope the transfer of ownership to Bajaj does not negatively impact the quality of future products, something only time will tell. In any event, my "deep dive" would never pass muster at a real sell side bank, but it is more comprehensive than what you'll usually find around the forums. 

In any event, feel free to read my thoughts here or if you are a substacker, here. 

Cheers y'all! 

Beagle wrote:

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ...

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ or MotoGP than at the boring financial reports.

There's something I don't understand about Felt, PMG bought it in late 2021, they've been talking about selling it since the end of 2023 (sale was supposed to be completed in 2024 1st quarter) but somehow it never happened. They keep talking about selling it (for 18 months!) and now look at this July 25th statement from their preliminary results for H1 2025 :

"The Husqvarna and GASGAS bicycle brands will be sold out by the end of 2025 – all warranty/service and spare parts deliveries will continue in accordance with the statutory warranty requirements. This does not affect the bicycle business of the continued Felt brand."

https://www.pierermobility.com/en/newsroom/eqsfeed/1273892111?type=adhoc

WTH?

On a side note, 15% tariffs for EU and Japan mean Austrian bikes will not particularly be at a disadvantage, maybe only Triumph would be marginally better with "merely" 10%. Whatever brand you choose, dirt bikes are getting more expensive for US customers.

Braz wrote:

Team rig has been sitting in Cody, WY the last couple days, maybe they ran out of fuel lol

Team rig has been sitting in Cody, WY the last couple days, maybe they ran out of fuel lol

NSP139 wrote:

They have two full semis sitting at headquarters here in California this entire outdoor season don't remember ever seeing them there during Race season!

jeffbrines wrote:

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so...

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so do your best to ignore my bias. As a trail/enduro guy, I really hope the transfer of ownership to Bajaj does not negatively impact the quality of future products, something only time will tell. In any event, my "deep dive" would never pass muster at a real sell side bank, but it is more comprehensive than what you'll usually find around the forums. 

In any event, feel free to read my thoughts here or if you are a substacker, here. 

Cheers y'all! 

Beagle wrote:

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ...

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ or MotoGP than at the boring financial reports.

There's something I don't understand about Felt, PMG bought it in late 2021, they've been talking about selling it since the end of 2023 (sale was supposed to be completed in 2024 1st quarter) but somehow it never happened. They keep talking about selling it (for 18 months!) and now look at this July 25th statement from their preliminary results for H1 2025 :

"The Husqvarna and GASGAS bicycle brands will be sold out by the end of 2025 – all warranty/service and spare parts deliveries will continue in accordance with the statutory warranty requirements. This does not affect the bicycle business of the continued Felt brand."

https://www.pierermobility.com/en/newsroom/eqsfeed/1273892111?type=adhoc

WTH?

On a side note, 15% tariffs for EU and Japan mean Austrian bikes will not particularly be at a disadvantage, maybe only Triumph would be marginally better with "merely" 10%. Whatever brand you choose, dirt bikes are getting more expensive for US customers.

Spoonguy wrote:

The company has been proven untrustworthy.

quadzrulebro wrote:

Their CYTD market share numbers here in the US certainly reflect that sentiment.

FreshTopEnd wrote:

Okay, fair enough, the have to re earn trust.  On a human level I get it, but on this business level I'm not sure its that...

Okay, fair enough, the have to re earn trust.  On a human level I get it, but on this business level I'm not sure its that relevant. Eventually people who want to make money with and off them will do business with them again.  Maybe those suppliers and other stakeholders do more to protect themselves on the front end.  Ideally there is trust, but that's a thin veneer when dealing with a company financed by lenders.  I don't think you can equate the dynamics of a mom and pop local business to a multinational conglomerate.

 

jeffbrines wrote:

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so...

Those interested in this thread my find my analysis somewhat worthwhile (see below). I'm a former equities analyst and a huge fan of the brand, so do your best to ignore my bias. As a trail/enduro guy, I really hope the transfer of ownership to Bajaj does not negatively impact the quality of future products, something only time will tell. In any event, my "deep dive" would never pass muster at a real sell side bank, but it is more comprehensive than what you'll usually find around the forums. 

In any event, feel free to read my thoughts here or if you are a substacker, here. 

Cheers y'all! 

Beagle wrote:

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ...

Thanks for that, great read. It's hard to grasp that ebikes really tanked them for some who would rather look at shiny objects like California HQ or MotoGP than at the boring financial reports.

There's something I don't understand about Felt, PMG bought it in late 2021, they've been talking about selling it since the end of 2023 (sale was supposed to be completed in 2024 1st quarter) but somehow it never happened. They keep talking about selling it (for 18 months!) and now look at this July 25th statement from their preliminary results for H1 2025 :

"The Husqvarna and GASGAS bicycle brands will be sold out by the end of 2025 – all warranty/service and spare parts deliveries will continue in accordance with the statutory warranty requirements. This does not affect the bicycle business of the continued Felt brand."

https://www.pierermobility.com/en/newsroom/eqsfeed/1273892111?type=adhoc

WTH?

On a side note, 15% tariffs for EU and Japan mean Austrian bikes will not particularly be at a disadvantage, maybe only Triumph would be marginally better with "merely" 10%. Whatever brand you choose, dirt bikes are getting more expensive for US customers.

Spoonguy wrote:

KTM's business decisions bankrupted people who depended upon them, say no more

Spoonguy wrote:

It's not as simple as all that. KTM dominates their regional economy. The managers of the company had a responsibility to every citizen in the area...

It's not as simple as all that. KTM dominates their regional economy. The managers of the company had a responsibility to every citizen in the area, not just employees or suppliers. A 50 million dollar warehouse in Kalifornia, MotoGP teams and other luxuries of the like do not translate to the welfare of the care taking for the citizens that got KTM to where they are/where. Do not misread me as a bleeding heart liberal, I am not, I am a retired business owner myself. Another age old business lesson is never let down those that are depending upon you. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation, but just one moment to destroy it. 30c on a dollar, you have to be shitting me.

FreshTopEnd wrote:

I don't disagree with those underlying principles, but they break down when a dominant client runs short on funds as debt comes due, for whatever reason...

I don't disagree with those underlying principles, but they break down when a dominant client runs short on funds as debt comes due, for whatever reason.  A 100 businesses owed $100 and the client having $30 means someone is out of pocket.  

Spoonguy wrote:

You misunderstood. KTM had a responsibility to fulfill not just to suppliers. Their totally dominant position in the economy of their location means many, if not...

You misunderstood. KTM had a responsibility to fulfill not just to suppliers. Their totally dominant position in the economy of their location means many, if not most, of the people in the area depend upon them in some form or another. KTM let those who depended upon them down.

Sandberm656 wrote:

My wife worked or what best could be described as a custom accounting business. A guy who knew how to build a house, do plumbing, electrician...

My wife worked or what best could be described as a custom accounting business. A guy who knew how to build a house, do plumbing, electrician, lay bricks etc would start his own company but knew nothing about accounting so this is where my wife and her boss came in the manage the books.

My wife did not know how these business owners slept at night with how on the edge financially they were all the time. People do not pay, or after the work is done negotiate lower prices for the completed work. They were constantly asking the bank or more time to pay their debts...then a big chunk of money would come in and then they would be ok for a few more months. 

Beagle wrote:

Things are far from settled, Pierer is like the Terminator, very hard to get rid of him

https://m.gpone.com/en/2025/08/20/motogp/stefan-pierers-plan-for-retain…

Beagle wrote:

Things are far from settled, Pierer is like the Terminator, very hard to get rid of him

https://m.gpone.com/en/2025/08/20/motogp/stefan-pierers-plan-for-retain…

endurox wrote:

pierer reminds me of Karl Icon. 

tek14 wrote:

https://motorcyclesports.net/motogp/ktms-bold-restructuring-sales-plunge-57-8-as-motorcycle-giant-faces-liquidation-challenges/

 

tek14 wrote:

https://motorcyclesports.net/motogp/ktms-bold-restructuring-sales-plunge-57-8-as-motorcycle-giant-faces-liquidation-challenges/

 

3strokemx wrote:

🧐

🧐

tek14 wrote:

https://motorcyclesports.net/motogp/ktms-bold-restructuring-sales-plunge-57-8-as-motorcycle-giant-faces-liquidation-challenges/

 

3strokemx wrote:

🧐

🧐