Engine Mounts incredible difference!

3strokemx
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Edited Date/Time 5/17/2024 10:32am

Has anyone tested engine mounts where the rider didn't know which session the bike had OEM or aftermarket mounts?
 

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soggy
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5/17/2024 12:16pm
3strokemx wrote:

Has anyone tested engine mounts where the rider didn't know which session the bike had OEM or aftermarket mounts?
 

Yes. 

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disbanded
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5/17/2024 12:21pm

I test triple clamps for Villopoto

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3strokemx
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5/17/2024 12:24pm
soggy wrote:

Yes. 

What did the rider think? Did the engine mounts improve anything?

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wwdiii
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5/17/2024 12:39pm
disbanded wrote:

I test triple clamps for Villopoto

We need a poll to see how many got that one.  That was a cleaver comment!

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The Shop

aeffertz
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5/17/2024 5:59pm
soggy wrote:

Yes. 

3strokemx wrote:

What did the rider think? Did the engine mounts improve anything?

Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "bolt these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Torque spec, bolt material, mount material/thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different engine mounts and bolts for ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

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3strokemx
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5/17/2024 6:34pm
aeffertz wrote:
Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for...

Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "bolt these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Torque spec, bolt material, mount material/thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different engine mounts and bolts for ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

Nano-Copper infused magnetic grounding socks (NCIMGS), like handlebars or suspension, can be worn by the rider to change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Thicker/Thinner models may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "put these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Material thickness, Nano-copper %, boot sole thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different NCIMGS and sole thicknesses ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

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3strokemx
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5/17/2024 6:38pm

There's a lot of hype about engine mounts (From Moto media) but I've yet to see any evidence to support the claims.
 

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brocster
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5/17/2024 7:00pm

Snake oil. IMO

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5/17/2024 8:23pm

I bought them for an 18 CRF450 I had. They helped give the frame more of a dead feel, but that bike was stiffer than shit right out of the box. Any other bike, there's probably better upgrades to put that money towards

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MKMX
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5/17/2024 8:35pm

Absolutely they make a difference. Your bike will look far more factory! Look good, feel good, ride good.

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aeffertz
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5/17/2024 9:36pm Edited Date/Time 5/17/2024 9:52pm
aeffertz wrote:
Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for...

Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "bolt these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Torque spec, bolt material, mount material/thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different engine mounts and bolts for ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

3strokemx wrote:
Nano-Copper infused magnetic grounding socks (NCIMGS), like handlebars or suspension, can be worn by the rider to change how the characteristics of a bike feel to...

Nano-Copper infused magnetic grounding socks (NCIMGS), like handlebars or suspension, can be worn by the rider to change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Thicker/Thinner models may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "put these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Material thickness, Nano-copper %, boot sole thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different NCIMGS and sole thicknesses ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

Replace your engine mounts with rubber mounts and tell me the bike doesn't feel different... I'll never understand this website's weird obsession that engine mounts can't change the way a bike feels...

 

Factory teams in the 90's were using different motor mounts..... 30 years ago. It's all about comfort. 

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3strokemx
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5/18/2024 4:22am
aeffertz wrote:
Replace your engine mounts with rubber mounts and tell me the bike doesn't feel different... I'll never understand this website's weird obsession that engine mounts can't...

Replace your engine mounts with rubber mounts and tell me the bike doesn't feel different... I'll never understand this website's weird obsession that engine mounts can't change the way a bike feels...

 

Factory teams in the 90's were using different motor mounts..... 30 years ago. It's all about comfort. 

Yes obviously there would be a difference with rubber engine mounts.

How does that translate into aftermarket engine mounts are better?

Do the aftermarket engine mount companies do better R&D than the OEM's?  

Why do the OEM's release their bikes with such inferior engine mounts?

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17judd17
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5/18/2024 4:47am

Yea I noticed this pretty fast with the FCP junk 😂😂

 

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El Capitan
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5/18/2024 4:50am

Has anyone spoken with you about the benefits of running Rotella? 

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BobPA
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5/18/2024 4:53am
aeffertz wrote:
Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for...

Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "bolt these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Torque spec, bolt material, mount material/thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different engine mounts and bolts for ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

I torque my flywheel bolt to 4 ft/lbs with red Loc Tite. It really frees up the crank......

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3strokemx
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5/18/2024 5:31am
MKMX wrote:

Absolutely they make a difference. Your bike will look far more factory! Look good, feel good, ride good.

Yeah I agree with you! If it works, placebo or not, it still works.

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sandman768
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5/18/2024 5:59am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2024 6:04am

I would think with a very sensitive test rider, exact same track conditions, no other changes, that test rider may be able to discern a change in the chassis. One other change, say, shock/ fork adjustment, tire air pressure, track condition,  I.E. watered vs drier would skew the results IMO… I have thought about drilling large hole’s in the solid mounts of my 24 350SFX but ran out of motivation. What’s interesting is my 23 300Sx has large holes in the upper hanger mounts, while my 24 350SFX has solid mounts. Basically same chassis, so KTM knows something about the upper hanger mounts effecting chassis…… where is Luxon with some proper explanation of these phenomenon….

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5/18/2024 6:13am

It changes the flex by using different material or thickness. 
 

It changes engine position with different mount(s). 
 

Sitting in garage most that don’t know think it looks Factory. 

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BobPA
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5/18/2024 6:24am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2024 6:25am
It changes the flex by using different material or thickness.    It changes engine position with different mount(s).    Sitting in garage most that don’t know...

It changes the flex by using different material or thickness. 
 

It changes engine position with different mount(s). 
 

Sitting in garage most that don’t know think it looks Factory. 

How does an upper engine mount change the engine position? Last I checked the engine is anchored via the swingarm bolt AND a bolt through a welded mount on the frame....sometimes two welded frame bolts.

 

The only aftermarket engine mounts that actually changed engine position (via memory) were the 2010ish Yamaha 450 mounts...

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5/18/2024 6:52am

Engine mounts are just like aftermarket suspension. Pick the ones that have the coolest stickers to make you bike look cool. The cooler your bike looks the better you ride. You hear about it in the moto media all the time. It’s the “mental edge!”

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soggy
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5/18/2024 7:11am
aeffertz wrote:
Replace your engine mounts with rubber mounts and tell me the bike doesn't feel different... I'll never understand this website's weird obsession that engine mounts can't...

Replace your engine mounts with rubber mounts and tell me the bike doesn't feel different... I'll never understand this website's weird obsession that engine mounts can't change the way a bike feels...

 

Factory teams in the 90's were using different motor mounts..... 30 years ago. It's all about comfort. 

3strokemx wrote:
Yes obviously there would be a difference with rubber engine mounts. How does that translate into aftermarket engine mounts are better? Do the aftermarket engine mount...

Yes obviously there would be a difference with rubber engine mounts.

How does that translate into aftermarket engine mounts are better?

Do the aftermarket engine mount companies do better R&D than the OEM's?  

Why do the OEM's release their bikes with such inferior engine mounts?

Do you understand how high volume production and budgets work at all??

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Luxon MX
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5/18/2024 7:59am

Much of what I'm writing below mirrors what ML says in his Kawi FCP mount review on the home page, so that's worth a read if you're interested in some engine mounts.

Can engine mounts change the feel of the chassis? Yes

Can the most sensitive riders feel that change? Yes

Can most riders feel that change? Probably not

Are engine mounts a positive improvement? Maybe

Everything flexes under load. The stock engine mounts flex under load. The real question(s) here is how much do they flex under loading in different directions (stiffness is directional)? And how much different do the aftermarket mounts flex in those different directions under the same loads? It's the difference between the two that's going to matter. It's also important to understand how much the entire bike flexes under those loads for the different mounts vs stock. 

Generally, the mounts aren't going to change much for "feel". They're pretty stiff relative to the whole bike and don't flex much to begin with. Putting a big hole in the upper mount (that always seems to be the "solution" for some reason) might double that flex. But two times nearly zero is still nearly zero and that small change is diluted by how much the rest of the bike is flexing to be a really tiny change in overall flex. 

Further complicating things, some companies are reducing the stiffness in the upper mount and increasing stiffness in the lower mount. That's interesting, and sort of cancels things out. Changing where the flex is occurring may be beneficial to overall balance front to back, but the benefits will be pretty small and really need to be understood from an analysis model. I've yet to see anyone do this, most all the testing of mounts has been on the track. Of course, the end testing should be on the track, but it's near impossible to tell what's going on from that. That's where the analysis models come in. You can start by asking "what does this bike need", alter the designs and evaluate them in an analysis model on the computer, arrive at a positive change, then track test it after understanding what it does to the stiffness of the chassis. Track testing alone is just guess and check and incredibly inefficient.

Regardless, this all isn't to say that they don't work. They can, but it will be a small change. And at a near $500 price point for 4 small parts, the price of entry is a bit crazy. There are much more effective ways to spend $500 in improving the chassis. But with all the people I see buying them anyways, I'm half tempted to enter the market! 

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wwdiii
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5/18/2024 8:06am

I don’t know about engine mounts.  But I screwed my hour meter down with the little screw that came with the hour meter and it completely ruined the handling of my 23 Honda!

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FGR01
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5/18/2024 8:54am

Guy's thinking they can feel motor mounts and bolt torque differences...Laughing

In a back to back blind test, these guys might get it right by sheer luck or guessing.  But if you forced these guys to test both blindly and randomly back to back 10, 20, 30 times.... and also did the same for Nano-Copper infused magnetic grounding socks (NCIMGS), you'd like get roughly the same percentage of correct guesses on which they were using for both the engine mounts and the socks.  Maybe higher percentage correct for the socks.

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gristle568
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5/18/2024 9:51am

I bought a used set for my last bike just to try them out. The bike did seem to settle into the corners better but that could have just been in my head. I got a good deal on them  and they look cool but not full price cool. I sold them for what I paid when I got rid of the bike so it was no loss to me. 

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OwenJakes
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5/18/2024 9:56am
soggy wrote:

Yes. 

3strokemx wrote:

What did the rider think? Did the engine mounts improve anything?

aeffertz wrote:
Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for...

Engine mounts, like handlebars or suspension, can change how the characteristics of a bike feel to better fit the rider. Stiffer/softer mounts may be worse for a particular rider or they could make the bike feel more comfortable for another. It's not just a "bolt these on and the bike will be better" part. It all depends on what you're looking for on how the bike feels. Torque spec, bolt material, mount material/thickness all will make the bike feel different.

Race teams have been playing with different engine mounts and bolts for ages, depending on which one their rider likes the most.

Do you even ride?

4
sandman768
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5/18/2024 10:31am
Luxon MX wrote:
Much of what I'm writing below mirrors what ML says in his Kawi FCP mount review on the home page, so that's worth a read if...

Much of what I'm writing below mirrors what ML says in his Kawi FCP mount review on the home page, so that's worth a read if you're interested in some engine mounts.

Can engine mounts change the feel of the chassis? Yes

Can the most sensitive riders feel that change? Yes

Can most riders feel that change? Probably not

Are engine mounts a positive improvement? Maybe

Everything flexes under load. The stock engine mounts flex under load. The real question(s) here is how much do they flex under loading in different directions (stiffness is directional)? And how much different do the aftermarket mounts flex in those different directions under the same loads? It's the difference between the two that's going to matter. It's also important to understand how much the entire bike flexes under those loads for the different mounts vs stock. 

Generally, the mounts aren't going to change much for "feel". They're pretty stiff relative to the whole bike and don't flex much to begin with. Putting a big hole in the upper mount (that always seems to be the "solution" for some reason) might double that flex. But two times nearly zero is still nearly zero and that small change is diluted by how much the rest of the bike is flexing to be a really tiny change in overall flex. 

Further complicating things, some companies are reducing the stiffness in the upper mount and increasing stiffness in the lower mount. That's interesting, and sort of cancels things out. Changing where the flex is occurring may be beneficial to overall balance front to back, but the benefits will be pretty small and really need to be understood from an analysis model. I've yet to see anyone do this, most all the testing of mounts has been on the track. Of course, the end testing should be on the track, but it's near impossible to tell what's going on from that. That's where the analysis models come in. You can start by asking "what does this bike need", alter the designs and evaluate them in an analysis model on the computer, arrive at a positive change, then track test it after understanding what it does to the stiffness of the chassis. Track testing alone is just guess and check and incredibly inefficient.

Regardless, this all isn't to say that they don't work. They can, but it will be a small change. And at a near $500 price point for 4 small parts, the price of entry is a bit crazy. There are much more effective ways to spend $500 in improving the chassis. But with all the people I see buying them anyways, I'm half tempted to enter the market! 

Thanks…. 

APLMAN99
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5/18/2024 11:06am

I can’t always tell if my tire is almost flat, so I’m probably one of the lucky ones who wouldn’t likely benefit from or even notice different engine mounts……

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TDC
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5/18/2024 11:07am
wwdiii wrote:
I don’t know about engine mounts.  But I screwed my hour meter down with the little screw that came with the hour meter and it completely...

I don’t know about engine mounts.  But I screwed my hour meter down with the little screw that came with the hour meter and it completely ruined the handling of my 23 Honda!

Torque setting was too far off. 

Look what all this rain is doing to you man. Get uhholt of yoursef. Go out and bump up that heart rate for a minute or two and breath in some swamp air.

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TDC
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5/18/2024 11:47am Edited Date/Time 5/18/2024 12:18pm

The only time I've detected chassis or fork flex was with a G-out into a 16' faced vertical cliff jump. Repeatedly hit it like a first date. I couldn't correct for a straight line launch, no how. Poor 'lil KDX! 

I ain't hittin' nothin' that hard at no tracks. No not never.

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