KTM broke in half.

4/18/2022 3:45pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol, try being an actual real medical scientist this last 2 years!
Like on YouTube?
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gs317
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4/18/2022 4:14pm
I’m not an engineer, so that being said… If we’ve established that the KTM design is flawed to begin with and requires an excessive amount of...
I’m not an engineer, so that being said…

If we’ve established that the KTM design is flawed to begin with and requires an excessive amount of maintenance to keep it safe, why would aftermarket companies utilize this design rather than switching to a more traditional triple clamp design for their KTM clamps?
Luxon MX wrote:
The design isn't inherently flawed to begin with, if the bolts are torqued correctly and nothing comes loose, then it works fine. The same thing can...
The design isn't inherently flawed to begin with, if the bolts are torqued correctly and nothing comes loose, then it works fine. The same thing can be said for multiple other parts on the bike.

That said, we could revise the design and use the more "traditional" style. But that brings up multiple other issues as we have to work around the geometry that's there (the frame, etc.). It's typically beneficial to maintain the same or similar features to stock than to change things up completely:

* Customers are already used to the KTM/Husky/GasGas clamps, and keeping the same design gives them what they're used to.
* The owner's manuals, instructions, etc. all refer to the same design that way.

* Spare parts are easy to come by in a rush situation. The stock steering stem, steering stem nut, bolts, bar mounts, etc. are all compatible with our triple clamps.

* Keeping the same design maintains compatibility with other parts. For example, steering dampers are all designed to work around the stock KTM design. A traditional locknut is a lot taller than the KTM style, which may interfere with other aftermarket parts.

* If we were to move to an adjuster nut under the clamp and a locknut on top, we would have to thin out the triple clamp to make room for the thickness of the adjuster nut. This would remove a significant amount of material in an area that's highly stressed. Making the clamp thicker to compensate either raises up the top nut further so it interferes with the bar mounts and/or even more interference with other aftermarket parts (point above).
* Making the entire triple clamp taller to remove that issue completely changes the geometry - bar mounts move higher, triple clamps are higher on the fork tubes (in this case they would be above the top of the fork tubes), etc.

So it's not as simple as just changing the design to the more traditional style. That's why you see all the aftermarket companies using the same style of design in this spot.
The technical write ups/feedback/white papers put out by Luxon are a large part of why I went to using their parts, how many companies explain their products so thoroughly? I'm an engineer and while I am not familiar with designing motocross parts I can recognize good analysis and design processes and I can trust that he has been putting a lot of thought and work into his parts. I like that someone actually has numbers and analysis to go with why things were done. Also, the support I got when I destroyed some bar mounts was pretty solid.
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SEEMEFIRST
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4/18/2022 4:44pm
From the photo, the bolt is clearly broken off.

I am not an engineer, but deal with machines that spend a lot of time in high stress conditions.

I know what over torqueing can do, and what loosened fasteners can do.

With a little analysis, I feel pretty confident that they will be able to tell if the bolt broke in tensile or sideways. (That's not really shear, what would that be?).

Even if everything was perfectly in place, without knowing how he landed from where, how can we know?
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NotCore
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4/18/2022 4:59pm
NotCore wrote:
Nice of you to come out of retirement to share. I think there is a whole thread or two (probably deleted) of the things people around...
Nice of you to come out of retirement to share. I think there is a whole thread or two (probably deleted) of the things people around here found super frustrating about how you ran the board.
GuyB wrote:
Yet you kept coming back. I'm perfectly okay with not everyone liking how I ran things. 😄 [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/18/544584/s1200_E9D3AE2F_5542_4F28_BDEB_1EF2FE199843.jpg[/img]
Yet you kept coming back.

I'm perfectly okay with not everyone liking how I ran things. 😄


Fair deal that...I'm sure there are many folks that care little about what you found super frustrating as well.
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The Shop

GuyB
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4/18/2022 5:29pm
NotCore wrote:
Fair deal that...I'm sure there are many folks that care little about what you found super frustrating as well.
Then there are the folks who feel like they have to get the last...
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McG194
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4/18/2022 6:12pm
NotCore wrote:
Nice of you to come out of retirement to share. I think there is a whole thread or two (probably deleted) of the things people around...
Nice of you to come out of retirement to share. I think there is a whole thread or two (probably deleted) of the things people around here found super frustrating about how you ran the board.
GuyB wrote:
Yet you kept coming back. I'm perfectly okay with not everyone liking how I ran things. 😄 [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/18/544584/s1200_E9D3AE2F_5542_4F28_BDEB_1EF2FE199843.jpg[/img]
Yet you kept coming back.

I'm perfectly okay with not everyone liking how I ran things. 😄


NotCore wrote:
Fair deal that...I'm sure there are many folks that care little about what you found super frustrating as well.
You are allowed to not like someone and also not tell the whole world you don't like them.

If I don't like someone, I ignore them, but then again, I don't let another man have power over me. I'm silly that way.
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mxtech1
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4/18/2022 6:14pm
Could write a short novel on this subject and all the related comments.

All I will say is that sometimes in the pro pits, you see way to many T-Handles and not enough torque wrenches. In addition, there’s a lack of mistake proofing and process controls to mitigate mistakes. Using a paint pen to mark torqued bolts for example.

There’s a reason F1 race teams use process control and fastener data logging on every single connection on the car.

Shit happens, and when it does, parts break. That doesn’t mean there’s a design flaw, it means the part(s) were being used outside of the design parameters, in corner conditions to boot, something is going to fail. Guaranteed.
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SEEMEFIRST
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4/18/2022 6:30pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Could write a short novel on this subject and all the related comments. All I will say is that sometimes in the pro pits, you see...
Could write a short novel on this subject and all the related comments.

All I will say is that sometimes in the pro pits, you see way to many T-Handles and not enough torque wrenches. In addition, there’s a lack of mistake proofing and process controls to mitigate mistakes. Using a paint pen to mark torqued bolts for example.

There’s a reason F1 race teams use process control and fastener data logging on every single connection on the car.

Shit happens, and when it does, parts break. That doesn’t mean there’s a design flaw, it means the part(s) were being used outside of the design parameters, in corner conditions to boot, something is going to fail. Guaranteed.
Well said.
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Money
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4/18/2022 7:01pm
I know a certain rider/team tested these clamps in an off-season recently and the rider commented these clamps feel like they move and the front end feels like it’s moving forward to back. Needless to say they stuck with there old clamp setup and won the championship that season.
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Sawfish
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4/18/2022 7:11pm
Brent wrote:
Because saying anything about other manufacturer's products on a public message board is not the best move. I like X trig stuff for a reason, and...
Because saying anything about other manufacturer's products on a public message board is not the best move. I like X trig stuff for a reason, and its not just my view.

You are welcome to see for yourself - We will be training around the SoCal tracks all month in May.

DM me for our schedule.
I thought it was “ I don't have to explain myself and why I have an opinion on stuff.” ?

Dude we get it you’re cosplaying a team manager role. No one cares.
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Bruce372
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4/18/2022 8:12pm
Bruce372 wrote:
Lol, try being an actual real medical scientist this last 2 years!
Like on YouTube?
No, like on breaking bad.
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OR Racer46
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4/18/2022 11:07pm
bvm111 wrote:
i feel compelled to go check the torque on the bolt of my triple clamp since i’m riding tomorrow morning!
And for the love of Baby Gezus do not forget about your sprocket bolts .
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philG
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4/19/2022 1:38am
forensic wrote:
how can you tell from the photo that the bolt failed and then the clamp, as opposed to the bolt and clamp failing in one overload...
how can you tell from the photo that the bolt failed and then the clamp, as opposed to the bolt and clamp failing in one overload event?
the colour of the breaks.

Just by looking at it you can see there are indications on the bolt and nothing on the clamp.

If you sent that for analysis, the grain structure would show clearly.

When you get to stuff like this, at the top level, the drawing will even state if it can be made out of flat or round stock, and it will specify the grain direction too. That is on top of a detailed material spec, which the best manufacturers would test per batch, irrespective of what the certs tell them.

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philG
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4/19/2022 2:05am
mxtech1 wrote:
Could write a short novel on this subject and all the related comments. All I will say is that sometimes in the pro pits, you see...
Could write a short novel on this subject and all the related comments.

All I will say is that sometimes in the pro pits, you see way to many T-Handles and not enough torque wrenches. In addition, there’s a lack of mistake proofing and process controls to mitigate mistakes. Using a paint pen to mark torqued bolts for example.

There’s a reason F1 race teams use process control and fastener data logging on every single connection on the car.

Shit happens, and when it does, parts break. That doesn’t mean there’s a design flaw, it means the part(s) were being used outside of the design parameters, in corner conditions to boot, something is going to fail. Guaranteed.
Exactly this.

As a guy that makes his living in Quality Control and Measurement, this is bang on.

Knowing that every part is correct to drawing, and correct to material spec before it even gets to the car is what separates those that know , from those that dont... its no good trying to do a post mortem on parts when they are in two bits , if you didnt measure them before hand.

I have been called in to measure parts that have done 2 days testing , been hand carried back to the factory on a plane, checked against the original measurements, been sentenced by the design engineer, and flown back the same day to be fitted on the car for another 2 days , before doing the same again.

So when things break, and they will. nobody is asking ' was it right to drawing' because there will be a full report filed that it was before it was cleared to build.

When you get to aftermarket parts , their will be people who use the fact that it was made on a CNC or a jig to validate that it 'must be right' and those that actually measure them properly , to a proper drawing, and use process control to ensure there are no escapes that are out of limit.

What i will say, is that the bolt that failed , looks to have broken across the end of the thread, which is a typical failure.

A top spec bolt will be thread rolled, and one that is properly loaded will have the thread runout into an undercut with controlled rads in the bottom. Even though that reduces the cross section, it totally removes the point loading at the end of the thread.
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Sandusky26
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4/19/2022 4:52am
2 of the 3 HEP Suzukis went back to OEM clamps last week.
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forensic
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4/19/2022 5:27am
philG wrote:
the colour of the breaks. Just by looking at it you can see there are indications on the bolt and nothing on the clamp. If you...
the colour of the breaks.

Just by looking at it you can see there are indications on the bolt and nothing on the clamp.

If you sent that for analysis, the grain structure would show clearly.

When you get to stuff like this, at the top level, the drawing will even state if it can be made out of flat or round stock, and it will specify the grain direction too. That is on top of a detailed material spec, which the best manufacturers would test per batch, irrespective of what the certs tell them.

With all due respect, I believe you are speculating and giving vague technical-sounding statements. (unless you care to explain)
I have worked with metallurgists on mechanical failures like this and there is no way you can look at that photo and tell that the bolt was over-tightened. A little quick to throw the mechanic under the bus IMO. Unless there is a good reason to assume that... i.e., are those other similar failures also a result of over-tightening, or did the mechanic say he cranked on it? if so, then it is probably time to emphasize proper installation in the product literature!
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soggy
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4/19/2022 6:11am
Technical discussions on vital offer an interesting insight into how many of us ingest information in the current world. People with expertise and technical background posting...
Technical discussions on vital offer an interesting insight into how many of us ingest information in the current world. People with expertise and technical background posting alongside people just winging it and going with their gut. Both sides being completely confident, makes it very hard to discern what’s based on sound technical reasoning unless you already have expertise in the field. Sort of a catch 22
No it’s pretty easy to point out the people not using sound technical reasoning and those that are.
Roostermx58
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4/19/2022 7:30am
Sandusky26 wrote:
2 of the 3 HEP Suzukis went back to OEM clamps last week.
I may be missing it, or they only offer to factory teams, but I don't see where they sell Suzuki clamps on their website?
Juck
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Fantasy
4/19/2022 8:43am
LungButter wrote:
L.O.L. Come on bro.... do you have a background in sales? Cause that was some good deflection there. You came in here touting "go with what...
L.O.L. Come on bro.... do you have a background in sales? Cause that was some good deflection there.

You came in here touting "go with what you know" and inferring that the XTrig was superior.

You pointed out in another post "a couple specific reasons."....

Since then you've been called out on "Why is it better?" and continually refuse to give those "specific reasons".

Why even bring it up if you aren't gonna back it up? It almost leaves one to believe that you don't have any reasons you just wanted to make yourself look superior....

All that to say, I'm truly curious about the reasons as are others. Not trying to be a dick but it's hard not to sound like one when responding to someone with such a superiority complex as yourself.

Brent wrote:
Because saying anything about other manufacturer's products on a public message board is not the best move. I like X trig stuff for a reason, and...
Because saying anything about other manufacturer's products on a public message board is not the best move. I like X trig stuff for a reason, and its not just my view.

You are welcome to see for yourself - We will be training around the SoCal tracks all month in May.

DM me for our schedule.
Why can't you just DM him your reasons instead of him needing to talk to you in person? Does he also need to come into the airport holding a Rubik's Cube so you can seek him out covertly and spill the forbidden knowledge of why XTrigs are the best?
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4/19/2022 9:36am
Sandusky26 wrote:
2 of the 3 HEP Suzukis went back to OEM clamps last week.
I may be missing it, or they only offer to factory teams, but I don't see where they sell Suzuki clamps on their website?
I think this is more in reference to the factory clamps with a similar pinch bolt shown on pg 4.
Kenny Lingus
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4/19/2022 9:43am
forensic wrote:
With all due respect, I believe you are speculating and giving vague technical-sounding statements. (unless you care to explain) I have worked with metallurgists on mechanical...
With all due respect, I believe you are speculating and giving vague technical-sounding statements. (unless you care to explain)
I have worked with metallurgists on mechanical failures like this and there is no way you can look at that photo and tell that the bolt was over-tightened. A little quick to throw the mechanic under the bus IMO. Unless there is a good reason to assume that... i.e., are those other similar failures also a result of over-tightening, or did the mechanic say he cranked on it? if so, then it is probably time to emphasize proper installation in the product literature!
These are only instructions for the bar mounts but the one for the triple clamps are equally as detailed. Also came with the necessary anti-seize.


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forensic
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4/19/2022 10:31am
These are only instructions for the bar mounts but the one for the triple clamps are equally as detailed. Also came with the necessary anti-seize. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/04/19/544774/s1200_IMG_20220419_121113533_2.jpg[/img]
These are only instructions for the bar mounts but the one for the triple clamps are equally as detailed. Also came with the necessary anti-seize.


nice!
I'd clarify that in no way am I knocking anyones product or saying anything failed improperly. just pointing out some speculation. Do we have several people over tightening this style clamp leading to failures or are these overload events FROM crashes that the product(s) wasn't designed to withstand?
I think the post from the self-professed non-engineer on page 3 was good. Re: probable failure mode and it being loaded outside the design parameters.
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Broseph
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4/19/2022 11:01am Edited Date/Time 4/19/2022 11:04am
Did the crash cause the break or did the break cause the crash? The former lands squarely in the “sh*t happens” category, while the latter is solidly “sh*t that should never happen”.
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mxfuture
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4/19/2022 12:38pm
McG194 wrote:
You are allowed to not like someone and also not tell the whole world you don't like them. If I don't like someone, I ignore them...
You are allowed to not like someone and also not tell the whole world you don't like them.

If I don't like someone, I ignore them, but then again, I don't let another man have power over me. I'm silly that way.
lol

you should tell that to GUYB Wink
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Brent
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4/19/2022 3:21pm
Juck wrote:
Why can't you just DM him your reasons instead of him needing to talk to you in person? Does he also need to come into the...
Why can't you just DM him your reasons instead of him needing to talk to you in person? Does he also need to come into the airport holding a Rubik's Cube so you can seek him out covertly and spill the forbidden knowledge of why XTrigs are the best?
…because I can live in his head rent free this way.

Besides, dudes who are ranting and name calling about this don’t even race moto, or even own a newer KTM, so why should I waste my time?
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4/19/2022 3:31pm
You keep wasting your time replying with stupid answers though?
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Motodave15
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4/19/2022 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 4/19/2022 3:47pm
Should I replace this, I was just looking at my bike and happened to see this and then this thread and now I’m like 99% sketched out

Replace or non issue?? (I’m already leaning towards replace)
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Sandusky26
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4/19/2022 3:47pm Edited Date/Time 4/19/2022 3:47pm
I can’t believe the first thread I start on vital created such a shit storm.
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#434
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4/19/2022 3:51pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Should I replace this, I was just looking at my bike and happened to see this and then this thread and now I’m like 99% sketched...
Should I replace this, I was just looking at my bike and happened to see this and then this thread and now I’m like 99% sketched out

Replace or non issue?? (I’m already leaning towards replace)
Are you joking or is there really a crack in line with the pinch bolt?
If it’s real, replace the top triple clamp.
And ask KTM if they‘ve ever seen a crack in that area…
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sandman768
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4/19/2022 3:55pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Should I replace this, I was just looking at my bike and happened to see this and then this thread and now I’m like 99% sketched...
Should I replace this, I was just looking at my bike and happened to see this and then this thread and now I’m like 99% sketched out

Replace or non issue?? (I’m already leaning towards replace)
I would
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