Pulp MX comments right now- is MX croaking?

8500rpm
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9/9/2021 10:56pm
JamesReed wrote:
The market is currently out of control (covid pricing) and way too pricey for the sport's blue collar roots/fanbase(people don't need 'homologation specials' anymore). Is a...
The market is currently out of control (covid pricing) and way too pricey for the sport's blue collar roots/fanbase(people don't need 'homologation specials' anymore). Is a $8,000 2022 YZ250 faster than a $4,000 2004-2010 model, for an average Joe? No. How about a $11,000 KTM?.. "I have to be at work at 6:30 on Monday."

Moto isn't going to grow significantly until Electric comes onboard and preppy people who buy $5-10k mountain bikes get hyped on E-Moto. That, and warehouse tracks open up urban areas to the sport. Yeah, I know.. EleCtrIc BiKes cAN't FiNniSH uH 30 minute MoTO.. Neither can 90% of people that BUY their bikes.
I didn't think in terms of 'preppy people' but I agree 100%

For many many outdoorsy-sporty people with money to spend live in urban areas where there is no way to have a 'race shop' in the garage and also they have limited time to do rebuilds and similar work. They have the money but not the time and the garage.

Personally, I love MX but I have see no joy in all the maintenance, all the hours in the garage, I do it just so I can ride. What a wonderful world it would be with e-Moto to just focus on riding, training etc and not do another oil change or top-end re-build.

The donut glam we see around Jett, it doesn't resonate with a grease garage, but it does resonate with preppy sporty people.

Generally, it's not the oil/grease/garage, but I think 'modern people' have limited time for everything surrounding a hobby/sport, they can do the sport but not put triple the time on just 'running the show'.

I think the future will bring the mountainbikers with their $10k machines, they have no problem paying 5-15k for a bicycle now, so it's fine to pay 10k for a new MXer. But they still don't have a garage not the time for a new top-end build.

BTW. regarding the above, the fantastic AJ Catanzaro, doesn't he live in a townhouse? Doesn't seem his riding is very much garage related, he spends time on riding, not doing top-end re-builds.

MX will have a good future, but it will attract a new crowd...
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JamesReed
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9/9/2021 11:22pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2021 11:41pm
^Totally. People say that mountain bikes, especially e-bikes are like golf for millennials. Chase Sexton, Adam Cinciarulo, and Justin Cooper totally seem like they would have been golfers if they didn't race MX. There's gotta be some overlap on a venn diagram of MX, Golfers, and Outdoorsy Milenials.

Lots of city folks moving to small towns in places like Cali (housing costs) and commuting long distances to work every day. Noise complaints out the Wazooo now. I'd need a dead silent bike nowdays to ride on all the properties where I used to, growing up. At the same time though, I could totally see a warehouse track for electric MX being a hit in that area.
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8500rpm
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9/10/2021 12:28am
Many sports/hobbies that is equally time & equipment heavy are running into the same problem. I don't know why of course but can only guess.

Less money available for young people and those who have money are not willing to invest the time.

Very far from MX, namely sailing! is running into the same problem, mostly 'old farts' who dream about what once was, young people not investing into boats and 30-somethings not spending time on sailing, competing as it requires way too much time. Sailing is not about noise complaints as we all know Wink

Personally I think JamesReeds 'preppy MTB:s' are the answer, they got the resources and willing to spend a few hours on a Saturday riding and back home by the afternoon for a cocktail BBQ with wifey.



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davistld01
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9/10/2021 7:26am
Do I support the consumption of energy drinks...hell, no!

Do I support the energy drink brands investing in SX/MX...hell, yes!
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The Shop

Moto76er
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9/10/2021 10:18am
avidchimp wrote:
Where is 7/11 in all of this? I'm having a beer and some steak and cheese taquitos while I work from home and it's glorious.
How’s the diarrhea today on that diet.
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avidchimp
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9/10/2021 10:51am
Moto76er wrote:
How’s the diarrhea today on that diet.
I mean, it was a bit of a loose program, so some was to be expected.
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three9zero
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9/10/2021 12:09pm
Motocross only markets to 50% of the population, my wife and daughter literally leave the room when races are on the TV,
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PRY
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9/10/2021 8:55pm
BobPA wrote:
Lots of Debbie Downers in this thread. If someone truly wants to ride and/or race, they will find a way. Cancel your giant cable package and...
Lots of Debbie Downers in this thread. If someone truly wants to ride and/or race, they will find a way. Cancel your giant cable package and do not go to the bar or out to eat....You would be amazed at how much is saved.
hititpind wrote:
So sacrifice everything so you can ride on the weekends? That's your answer? Proves my point I don't have that fancy tv package or do I...
So sacrifice everything so you can ride on the weekends? That's your answer? Proves my point

I don't have that fancy tv package or do I rarely eat out. No matter where you cut costs to save, it's still a bummer that it's so expensive.
BobPA wrote:
While I agree that it is expensive, it is relatively cheap compared to other motorsports. I am talking more along the lines of supporting your personal...
While I agree that it is expensive, it is relatively cheap compared to other motorsports.

I am talking more along the lines of supporting your personal racing habit. Supporting a whole family of rugrats while racing is a game only to be played by Bill Gates and associates. For me to race on a weekend is not really that bad.

Lets break it down,
Basic Moto day with my lady friend

40 miles of travel each way for a total of 80 miles, my truck averages 18.5 MPG, that is 4.3 gallons @ say $2.50/gallon =10.8 or $11 for fuel
$10 a head to get in $20
$35 for the first class and $30 for the next is pretty standard around here. $75
2 gallons of fuel in bike, max $6
Case of water $3
5 or so big Gatorades $5
Food $20 on the highest end. burgers and sandwiches are cheap
$30 for broken parts (could be more or less)

That is $170 total, not bad considering that $170 will not even get you a right rear tire for a dirt track car.

Obviously I am not taking bike and truck cost into consideration, but it is still wayyyyyyyyyy cheaper than anything with an engine.

Relatively speaking you are correct, most of the people are not considering a change of Motorsport. Motocross costs have changed disproportionately with time.
3 years back a weekends practice £40 now looking at double that. Bike prices doubled in 10 years, and that's not talking changing from 2 stroke to 4 stroke.
So yes, Motocross is still one of the cheapest forms of Motorsport, but it has got to the point or getting to a point where a lot of enthusiasts cannot afford it, and/or
see it as expensive in terms of the return. Maybe one says it is becoming elitist sport.
To the general forum, in my opinion, cost is the biggest prohibiter, which will only get worse as numbers reduce. Secondly, I do think there is truth in the reason that track design is contributing to reduced numbers. I recall when I was a teenager and wanted more and bigger jumps, yet the senior generation wanted 'old school'. Today I hate going to a track where my head challenges me with respect to clearing a jump, admittedly not to the point where I am considering giving up the sport, but I think it goes to validate point.
Enjoy the sport while you can, because one day you won't be able to. To me, it's it's the best sport out there, it's good healthy fun. the prime reason I do it.
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LoudLove
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9/11/2021 6:41am
Meanwhile off-road racing continues to expand. Yes, the cost of entry remains the same as MX, but actual seat time is much greater, and the overall environment is more social. Plus XC doesn’t require custom courses and machinery. Just find some average, grab a saw, and mark the course.

Yamaha and Honda didn’t realize X versions of their bikes for no reason. 5 years ago off-road races were a sea of orange, and we’re talking hundreds of bikes at an event. For those who have not raced a local XC event, give it a shot. You’ll leave tired, but with a huge smile.
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Timo
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9/11/2021 11:14am
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
1
9/11/2021 11:17am
Timo wrote:
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't...
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
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Timo
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9/11/2021 11:35am
Timo wrote:
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't...
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
I was making $8.75 an hour in 04, I'm making $50 a hour now...
sandtrack315
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9/11/2021 11:52am
Controlling for inflation, bikes are the same price they’ve always been. The problem is there is a much smaller middle class to buy them. Trickle down economics, globalization, and technological advances have left a lot of people behind, demographics of people that ride dirt bikes. No sponsor is going to change that. Enjoy dirt bikes if you can afford them, find a new job if you can’t.
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9/11/2021 11:58am
Timo wrote:
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't...
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
Timo wrote:
I was making $8.75 an hour in 04, I'm making $50 a hour now...
Are they Hiring?
1
yz133rider
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9/11/2021 12:02pm
Timo wrote:
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't...
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
Then buy a low hours used bike with 10 hrs on it for 3-5k less than retail.

As shown above the cost for entry isn’t the issue. Ppl drop 15k for a mountain bike. 8500 for a new 250f seems a bargain next to that.
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9/11/2021 12:06pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2021 12:07pm
Timo wrote:
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't...
Everyone saying bike prices doubled, I paid $6100 otd on my 04 KX250, my 19 450FX was $9000 otd. I'm no math wizard but I don't think that's quite double, and there was 15 years of inflation.
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
yz133rider wrote:
Then buy a low hours used bike with 10 hrs on it for 3-5k less than retail. As shown above the cost for entry isn’t the...
Then buy a low hours used bike with 10 hrs on it for 3-5k less than retail.

As shown above the cost for entry isn’t the issue. Ppl drop 15k for a mountain bike. 8500 for a new 250f seems a bargain next to that.
Money is The issue for me personally, and I would buy and race an old 125 if local tracks had a 125 A,B,C class that only allowed 125's
I don't want to race against 250f's or 450f's on an old 125
But I would want to race others on 125's of all ages.
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yz133rider
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9/11/2021 12:07pm
Controlling for inflation, bikes are the same price they’ve always been. The problem is there is a much smaller middle class to buy them. Trickle down...
Controlling for inflation, bikes are the same price they’ve always been. The problem is there is a much smaller middle class to buy them. Trickle down economics, globalization, and technological advances have left a lot of people behind, demographics of people that ride dirt bikes. No sponsor is going to change that. Enjoy dirt bikes if you can afford them, find a new job if you can’t.
So I think there’s plenty of middle class to buy them. The middle class is just spending above their wages for years now.

New iPhones in their pockets, 2-3 brand new cars in the driveway, 60 inch TVs in multiple rooms, destination weddings, destination vacations, houses that are 2-3x the size of the average in the 50s, etc etc etc.

If you spend and pretend to be upper class while middle class, yes no money for your actual passions.
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9/11/2021 12:13pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2021 12:14pm
Controlling for inflation, bikes are the same price they’ve always been. The problem is there is a much smaller middle class to buy them. Trickle down...
Controlling for inflation, bikes are the same price they’ve always been. The problem is there is a much smaller middle class to buy them. Trickle down economics, globalization, and technological advances have left a lot of people behind, demographics of people that ride dirt bikes. No sponsor is going to change that. Enjoy dirt bikes if you can afford them, find a new job if you can’t.
yz133rider wrote:
So I think there’s plenty of middle class to buy them. The middle class is just spending above their wages for years now. New iPhones in...
So I think there’s plenty of middle class to buy them. The middle class is just spending above their wages for years now.

New iPhones in their pockets, 2-3 brand new cars in the driveway, 60 inch TVs in multiple rooms, destination weddings, destination vacations, houses that are 2-3x the size of the average in the 50s, etc etc etc.

If you spend and pretend to be upper class while middle class, yes no money for your actual passions.
It's a combination of things, not just money.
If you take a step back and look at this sport even at the local level it's not beginner friendly.
If your a 15 year old kid that finally talked your parents into getting you a bike to race and you go to a local track and look at super mini or 250c and see what these kids are doing I would guess there would be shock 😲
But was that the case in 1975, 1985, 1995, ??
Or your 25-30 and can finally afford a bike but have no experience. It's to advanced for a Newby.
That's why it's all second and third generation riders at the local tracks!
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rohleder644
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9/11/2021 12:21pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2021 12:27pm
That’s some truth right there. And unfortunately, the manufacturers have taken note of what the people want. You can’t buy an entry level car that doesn’t have a touchscreen. Or back up cameras. People’s need for luxury has left us with only luxury options. Even if it’s only superficial luxury wrapped around a dogshit entry level car/phone/house. Working class folks are spending in to oblivion just to maintain a semblance of luxury and sacrificing any hobbies or real passions in life. We live in a society that cares more about showing people you’ve got a happy, fulfilling life than actually living that happy, fulfilling life.
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9/11/2021 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2021 12:49pm
That’s some truth right there. And unfortunately, the manufacturers have taken note of what the people want. You can’t buy an entry level car that doesn’t...
That’s some truth right there. And unfortunately, the manufacturers have taken note of what the people want. You can’t buy an entry level car that doesn’t have a touchscreen. Or back up cameras. People’s need for luxury has left us with only luxury options. Even if it’s only superficial luxury wrapped around a dogshit entry level car/phone/house. Working class folks are spending in to oblivion just to maintain a semblance of luxury and sacrificing any hobbies or real passions in life. We live in a society that cares more about showing people you’ve got a happy, fulfilling life than actually living that happy, fulfilling life.
Very true but with Motocross racing there are some easy fixes, like a 125 class at all amatuer races, an
A expert/pro
B Intermediate
C Beginner/novice
That would be a good start a class where you don't look stupid riding a 15 year old bike while learning.

That opens up a $3000 to $5000 class that lowers the barrier of entry.
I know Ping has talked about this several times.
And keep separate 250f classes just as they are which should have been done from the beginning but its not to late.
A lot of people could and would buy a 125, even as a Second bike for some if they new that class was gonna be there every time.
Alan Dove
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9/11/2021 1:00pm
JamesReed wrote:
The market is currently out of control (covid pricing) and way too pricey for the sport's blue collar roots/fanbase(people don't need 'homologation specials' anymore). Is a...
The market is currently out of control (covid pricing) and way too pricey for the sport's blue collar roots/fanbase(people don't need 'homologation specials' anymore). Is a $8,000 2022 YZ250 faster than a $4,000 2004-2010 model, for an average Joe? No. How about a $11,000 KTM?.. "I have to be at work at 6:30 on Monday."

Moto isn't going to grow significantly until Electric comes onboard and preppy people who buy $5-10k mountain bikes get hyped on E-Moto. That, and warehouse tracks open up urban areas to the sport. Yeah, I know.. EleCtrIc BiKes cAN't FiNniSH uH 30 minute MoTO.. Neither can 90% of people that BUY their bikes.
It's not about how long the bikes can race for, it's that they don't have any cultural relevance. It's like eating without flavour. It's like music but only in written form.

Not sure those pushing electric products have figured this out yet. You only have to observe 2-stroke culture to see how important sound/smell/culture really are. Once you have silent bikes who is going to fill the stadiums? The party leaves town.

Electric propulsion is grey utilitarianism.

F1 manufacturers, for example, are petrified by all this, hence why there's talk of sustainable fuels and all that kind of thing.
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9/11/2021 2:21pm
There’s a fair few reasons why MX is struggling the biggest being bike costs 10k+ is just plain silly and anyone with a less than good salary won’t ever be able to ride.
Practice costs are on the rise there’s tracks here that are charging between $55-80 per day which soon adds up with fuel costs bike parts etc.
I think motocross needs a massive shake up to make it more accessible.
SCC
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9/11/2021 4:29pm
I make under 40k and pay 24k for rent per year and buy a new bike and gear every 3 years. You can do it if you don’t care about what vehicle you drive, your cloths, your phone, etc. If moto is the most important thing in your life its easy.
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Timo
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9/11/2021 4:35pm
But wages didn't see the same amount of inflation
Timo wrote:
I was making $8.75 an hour in 04, I'm making $50 a hour now...
Are they Hiring?
Shops always open, commercial HVAC is a great industry to get into!
chewy4063
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9/11/2021 8:10pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2021 8:11pm
SCC wrote:
I make under 40k and pay 24k for rent per year and buy a new bike and gear every 3 years. You can do it if...
I make under 40k and pay 24k for rent per year and buy a new bike and gear every 3 years. You can do it if you don’t care about what vehicle you drive, your cloths, your phone, etc. If moto is the most important thing in your life its easy.
You make less then 40k and pay 24k in rent? That is ridiculous lol. I make over 75k a year and pay around 19k a year in a very expensive city. Which still makes me want to puke thinking about, luckily it’s my last month of renting! You need to move!!
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Dutch348
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9/11/2021 8:18pm
If only there was a national that was right next to Los Angeles, that would get mainstream media coverage, and was within driving distance for 10s of millions. Oh wait that was Glen Helen. But DC put a stop to that. At least now we have the “Indiana National” to help grow the sport.
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aeffertz
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9/11/2021 10:23pm
chewy4063 wrote:
You make less then 40k and pay 24k in rent? That is ridiculous lol. I make over 75k a year and pay around 19k a year...
You make less then 40k and pay 24k in rent? That is ridiculous lol. I make over 75k a year and pay around 19k a year in a very expensive city. Which still makes me want to puke thinking about, luckily it’s my last month of renting! You need to move!!
$2,000 a month isn’t that crazy if he lives in a bigger city.
2
Alan Dove
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9/12/2021 8:19am
There’s a fair few reasons why MX is struggling the biggest being bike costs 10k+ is just plain silly and anyone with a less than good...
There’s a fair few reasons why MX is struggling the biggest being bike costs 10k+ is just plain silly and anyone with a less than good salary won’t ever be able to ride.
Practice costs are on the rise there’s tracks here that are charging between $55-80 per day which soon adds up with fuel costs bike parts etc.
I think motocross needs a massive shake up to make it more accessible.
Second hand bikes are a thing, no? $70 fee isn't that bad. Go see how much track time that gets you in circuit racing.
9/12/2021 8:54am
There’s a fair few reasons why MX is struggling the biggest being bike costs 10k+ is just plain silly and anyone with a less than good...
There’s a fair few reasons why MX is struggling the biggest being bike costs 10k+ is just plain silly and anyone with a less than good salary won’t ever be able to ride.
Practice costs are on the rise there’s tracks here that are charging between $55-80 per day which soon adds up with fuel costs bike parts etc.
I think motocross needs a massive shake up to make it more accessible.
Alan Dove wrote:
Second hand bikes are a thing, no? $70 fee isn't that bad. Go see how much track time that gets you in circuit racing.
It's not just the cost of the bike that's the problem, sure most could probably afford a used 125, but these days in a lot of areas there isn't places to learn, it's tough to just buy a bike a go try to learn everything on a motocross track.
1
chewy4063
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9/12/2021 11:45am Edited Date/Time 9/12/2021 11:47am
chewy4063 wrote:
You make less then 40k and pay 24k in rent? That is ridiculous lol. I make over 75k a year and pay around 19k a year...
You make less then 40k and pay 24k in rent? That is ridiculous lol. I make over 75k a year and pay around 19k a year in a very expensive city. Which still makes me want to puke thinking about, luckily it’s my last month of renting! You need to move!!
aeffertz wrote:
$2,000 a month isn’t that crazy if he lives in a bigger city.
I know that…I also know it’s crazy to pay upwards of 70% of your income on rent…Buying a new bike every 3 years is ridiculous based on those numbers.

There’s nothing wrong with making 40k a year, you’re working which is all that really matters. But living WAY beyond your means will always come back to bite you in the ass.

But grown people can make their own decisions.

To get back on topic. Yes motocross will continue to decline, it’s a different time and most kids today just sit inside playing video games. It’s not hard to see that it won’t be sustainable.

Is it expensive? Yes, it always has been. 2002 YZ250 sold for right around $6,000USD. Today they go for around $7,500USD. That’s not a crazy price increase that everyone keeps mentioning, 20 years later.

Price isn’t the driving force, it’s kids being raised in a different environment than we were. Ride around neighborhoods and let me know how many kids you see hanging out together riding their bicycles around.
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