Pulp MX comments right now- is MX croaking?

avidchimp
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8/22/2017 2:24pm
twizzler wrote:
Nobody seems to have fun racing moto, Villo was miserable, Dungey was scared or burnt out and couldn't wait to retire, Tomac seems miserable, some of...
Nobody seems to have fun racing moto, Villo was miserable, Dungey was scared or burnt out and couldn't wait to retire, Tomac seems miserable, some of the 250 guys seem miserable. It was a breath of fresh air and smiles and excitement to witness AC and Bogle win Budds. As they appeared to have fun and enjoyed the moment.
Mid-week trips to Havasu helped in the 90's.
1
gharmon
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Valley, AL US
8/22/2017 2:38pm
Indy mxer wrote:
I was at a race Sunday at Lincoln Trail Motorsports in Casey IL and he had 437 entries. Guy does a great job with the track...
I was at a race Sunday at Lincoln Trail Motorsports in Casey IL and he had 437 entries. Guy does a great job with the track and preps as good as any I've seen. But from what I hear this may be more the exception.
mx317 wrote:
Love Casey! We raced at Calhoun MX in GA and had to park in the overflow parking area. I don't know how many were there, but...
Love Casey! We raced at Calhoun MX in GA and had to park in the overflow parking area. I don't know how many were there, but there were lots of big gates.
This year? We used to race Calhoun a few years back when it was a every other weekend series with Bremen ran by the Kelly boys. We race there maybe two summers ago as well and it wasn't that full then. But I saw they were racing again. We may head back up that way soon. Im check out their schedule.
1
twizzler
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8/22/2017 2:48pm
twizzler wrote:
Nobody seems to have fun racing moto, Villo was miserable, Dungey was scared or burnt out and couldn't wait to retire, Tomac seems miserable, some of...
Nobody seems to have fun racing moto, Villo was miserable, Dungey was scared or burnt out and couldn't wait to retire, Tomac seems miserable, some of the 250 guys seem miserable. It was a breath of fresh air and smiles and excitement to witness AC and Bogle win Budds. As they appeared to have fun and enjoyed the moment.
avidchimp wrote:
Mid-week trips to Havasu helped in the 90's.
Yes, indeed. 90's ruled, my era saw a lot of the action LOL
1
oshow
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8/22/2017 2:55pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
There was a depressing series of comments from Watson, Matthes and Peronnard. tonight on the state of the sport. If something doesn't change quickly motocross is...
There was a depressing series of comments from Watson, Matthes and Peronnard. tonight on the state of the sport. If something doesn't change quickly motocross is going to be a second stage sideshow at the County Fair. The only bright spot seems to be Alta, and maybe KTM. As far as wider sponsorship growth and mass appeal- it's dead and buried.

Feld has been promoting SX since 2003. Someone should graph the relative profit of 20 MX-related companies compared with Feld. (Good luck finding financial information about Feld). The other factor is unattainable racing costs for the average person and changing demographics.
I know this stuff has been debated to death but consider RCH won the freaking premier series last year and is folding up this year.
I hate to be a downer, but when a big topic on your favorite sports show is how the sport is collapsing, it's a drag.
Good maybe bikes will go back down to 5K and under
1

The Shop

PRM31
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8/22/2017 4:01pm
PRM31 wrote:
The more expensive the bikes get, the fewer you sell. In racing, that means less of everything else including fans to attend races. I'm sure there...
The more expensive the bikes get, the fewer you sell. In racing, that means less of everything else including fans to attend races. I'm sure there are competing social issues as well, but the things the sport can control are not being managed to grow the sport.
526 wrote:
Yet we see over Double the Motorhomes at the track on race day??????? I am not buying the cost of bikes is killing the sport when...
Yet we see over Double the Motorhomes at the track on race day??????? I am not buying the cost of bikes is killing the sport when I see 60ft Diesel pusher motorhomes and they want to get to the track two days early so they can set up and hang out. That doesn't scream I am on a budget when I first start racing in the early 90s there were a few older motorhomes nothing like today.
Because those with significant disposable income can afford both. The cost of bikes doesn't impact these individuals. It's those that are on the edge with a bike and a cheap truck or trailer to get it there. That demographic is being driven out.
I don't think that's the only issue. Cost, risk, satisfaction, and changing social demographics all play roles.
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Phillip_Lamb
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8/22/2017 4:18pm
mx_563 wrote:
I hate spending a ton of money on MX just as much as the next guy but the cost argument seems a tad weak. The local...
I hate spending a ton of money on MX just as much as the next guy but the cost argument seems a tad weak. The local tracks used to be full of humble 3-rail trailers, Rangers, S10s, and Mighty Maxes. Now the pits are full of $50k Sprinter vans and leather equipped quad cab Silverados/F250s/Rams. Damn near every novice rider has an aftermarket exhaust on his thumper and revalved suspension. I don’t know, I’m not seeing evidence of this critical mass that we’re supposedly at in terms of cost. For every proletarian CR250 rider, there seems to be 5 dudes with new 450s.

I think we’re seeing socio-cultural affects at play, that are mostly out of the moto industry’s control. For whatever reasons (I blame tablets/smartphones), our youth’s interests are shifting. Hobby shops are closing up because kids don’t want to build stuff. Talking is being replaced by texting. Kids are no longer as eager to get their driver’s license as before. Attention spans are shrinking. The “problem” is much bigger than MX in my opinion. Changing the SX format or getting more factory sponsorships isn’t going to fix the problem at the grass roots level.

But I do think that if we embrace change (#niche #Alta #homologation), and continue to improve our image (we can do better than dirt shark), MX can thrive. And I think kids will eventually come around. It’ll be different, and we need to be open to that, but Moto will survive.
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Kids don't want driver's licenses- that is truly a seismic shift. When I was 16 we counted the days until we got our license...dreamed of the...
Kids don't want driver's licenses- that is truly a seismic shift. When I was 16 we counted the days until we got our license...dreamed of the bad ass car.
My daughter is 3 years old and I seriously doubt she will ever drive a car. She'll push a button on her phone, walk out to the driveway when the autonomous vehicle arrives, and ride to her destination without touching a steering wheel.
With that comes the loss of "motorhead" culture, the thrill of the road etc.

We will be like the old guys you see today building old steam engines in their garages...
the license thing i feel started dying in the early 2000's. I was the oldest of 6, and was the only one to get their license before 18. insurance and paying for driving classes has gotten out of hand considering the school stopped doing a driver ed class.
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slowgti
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8/22/2017 4:39pm
I make decent money, live pretty frugally. I'll stop and look at bikes 1-2 a year, I still can't get past the sticker shock.
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Matthes
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8/22/2017 4:53pm
I haven't read all the way through this thread but what I can see if you guys are covering something that we didn't talk about and that's the health of MX in general at all levels. What Watson was talking about was how tough it is for a professional team to make it in the sport with the restrictions placed on them. All of our talk was about the pro teams in the sport. When a team like RCH with its connections and at one time all their sponsors almost folded before this year and they're done end of this year. That's scary for all the private teams out there.

As far as I can tell, amateur stuff is strong looking at the LL level and I feel the sport has rebounded from its low of a few years ago but I don't really know to be honest. Bike sales have risen the last few years I've been told but they're still half of what they were in the 2006's, etc.
RangerLee
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8/22/2017 5:08pm Edited Date/Time 8/22/2017 5:08pm
PRM31 wrote:
The more expensive the bikes get, the fewer you sell. In racing, that means less of everything else including fans to attend races. I'm sure there...
The more expensive the bikes get, the fewer you sell. In racing, that means less of everything else including fans to attend races. I'm sure there are competing social issues as well, but the things the sport can control are not being managed to grow the sport.
So true, and the less they sell the more they raise the price to make up the difference.

Add the crazy taxes every country is putting on these bikes, it is just tough.

Plenty of comments on off road riding, and that is what the bulk of riders do, ride off road for fun, but the business is going quick to price people out of it. Plus you have groups like the sierra club that is doing everything they can to close off road riding areas and they have massive liberal support which means it moves votes, especially in states like california politics where you are either liberal or you are not in politics. So supporting those groups means closing more and more land to off highway vehicles..
Juice_Mann
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8/22/2017 5:13pm
JC21 wrote:
Jumps, jumps, jumps - they are killing MX.

Imagine you're playing little league but have to face a 100mph fast ball.
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless to say I've got bills to pay. There's no way in hell I'm hucking a giant triple step down or a do or die gap jump like I used to in my teens. MX tracks piss me off to the point where I don't even want to ride them anymore with all these stupid jumps. I like a big jump here and there, but they should be forgiving. Like step ups, tables, or doubles with sizable landings. Motocross isn't about jumps anyway. And yeah I'm not sure I want my future children to race unless these tracks start getting a little tamer. Some of the shit I've seen kids have to jump on a mini to be competitive is unbelievable and I wouldn't be comfortable with mine doing that.
3
8/22/2017 5:20pm
Radical wrote:
* Bring back 125 and 250 2T's in PRO racing. I've outlined how to do it and make it a win-win for everyone involved including the...
* Bring back 125 and 250 2T's in PRO racing.
I've outlined how to do it and make it a win-win for everyone involved including the manufacturers several times.
It lowers the cost to race/ride at a local and possibly pro level while slightly lowering the speeds (and severity of injuries).

* Phase in lower displacement for all classes over time. Lower the displacement of the small bikes back to where they belong: 50cc, 60cc and 80cc (125 4T). This reduces the severity of injuries in our sport. The big bikes max displacement needs to be phased in as well. F1 racing does it. I believe most motor sports except MX do it. As technology improves, we, like all motorsports need to regulate the speed.
I recommend something like: 175 4T, 300 4T. Leave the 2 stroke displacement alone for now. As technology improves, they'll need to be adjusted as well.

* Promote both Motocross racing and BMX at a local level. I, as many others, rode BMX before MX. To this day I mountain bike and motocross. So, promote anything that includes dirt and knobbies. BMX will help get kids into racing, and help feed MX.

* Tracks need to be better at marketing and getting the word out. I miss out on races regularly because the tracks post races the day before or only on social media, and it doesn't come up in my feed. If an email is sent out, the races are buried in the text describing practice hours, etc... It's more of an "Oh, By the Way, there's a race tomorrow". There will be a FAR greater turnout if the races are promoted, and email lists maintained. Send out one email dedicated to each race, 3-4 weeks ahead of time. And another the day after announcing the results, highlights, etc...

It's important that we build up kid's racing locally to feed adult and pro racing.

That's all I've got for now.
Pretty much what i said....As far as local promotion, years ago the races were broken up where the track was graded and watered after all the C.B. classes,mini's and vets ran and the A classes and pro's ran in the afternoon....everyone stayed to watch and made for a great enviroment.
1
305FC250
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8/22/2017 5:25pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
Motor culture is maybe dying. It was always as natural to me as peas and carrots. When I was a kid all we cared about was...
Motor culture is maybe dying. It was always as natural to me as peas and carrots. When I was a kid all we cared about was cars, dirt bikes and girls.
ns503 wrote:
This. The gadgeted web is killing the moto world - along with a lot of other formerly natural outside stuff. How many neighborhoods still have all...
This.

The gadgeted web is killing the moto world - along with a lot of other formerly natural outside stuff.

How many neighborhoods still have all the kids bombing around on bicycles? Or even doing anything together outdoors?
Amen. I think this is a bigger problem than money (not downplaying money as a major issue either though).
1
mx317
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TN US
8/22/2017 5:26pm
gharmon wrote:
This year? We used to race Calhoun a few years back when it was a every other weekend series with Bremen ran by the Kelly boys...
This year? We used to race Calhoun a few years back when it was a every other weekend series with Bremen ran by the Kelly boys. We race there maybe two summers ago as well and it wasn't that full then. But I saw they were racing again. We may head back up that way soon. Im check out their schedule.
Yes, last Saturday night. It was three race series together on one night is one reason for the crowd. Track was ok. The jumps were numerous but well built and safe enough this 50+ rider jumped them all.
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305FC250
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8/22/2017 6:05pm
I see a lot of posts saying kids today don't get out of the house and do anything active, but what I see here in the...
I see a lot of posts saying kids today don't get out of the house and do anything active, but what I see here in the KC MO area is the thousands of kids involved in stick-and-ball sports. Stick and ball has done an excellent job of creating a culture starting at the rec level and taking it all the way up to college and beyond. Soccer in particular is over the top. My 14 year old daughter is DA level and to see the facilities and organization of her sport and the amount of kids in these programs is amazing.
Every time I go to one of these facilities and see how much money is invested, it just blows my mind. And of course when I look at these wide open spaces with full lighting, turf fields etc, (oh and by the way they have it all set up for indoor practice/play during the winter as well, in buildings big enough for an indoor motocross track) I visualize how cool it would be to build a MX track there instead!
The culture around here is so big into baseball, basketball and football it's amazing to go to local tracks and still see 10 - 20 kids riding motocross. IMO...
Those sports are dirt cheap and anyone can do them. Now a days most parents are all about safety. Hell parents near me voted to get...
Those sports are dirt cheap and anyone can do them. Now a days most parents are all about safety. Hell parents near me voted to get playground equipment removed because it was dangerous. Those kids ain't touching a dirt bike anytime soon + the cost of riding is crazy expensive. Then you have to look at the places to ride if you have land or pits or have to pay everytime to ride
GrapeApe wrote:
DA level soccer is dirt cheap? Lol. I really don't think the cost is more a barrier to entry to MX than it was 20 years...
DA level soccer is dirt cheap? Lol. I really don't think the cost is more a barrier to entry to MX than it was 20 years ago, inflation adjusted. You would be surprised how much money is being thrown around by parents in competitive (not rec) sports. Here in North Texas kids get involved in stick and ball sports at 4 years old, and by 6 they are so over-scheduled there is no time for free play with friends on the weekends. IE - no time to grab motorcycles and go screw around in the fields. The boys have it worse than the girls, as their Dads try to remedy their own athletic shortcomings through their sons. At least where I live the parents are willing to spend the money; it's just not being spent on motocross/bmx/karting/etc.


Inflation adjusted you should know that 'X' amount of money today does not go near as far as it did 20-30 years ago meanwhile prices of things have gone up significantly. Period. Income has not changed in proportion to inflation so you are mistaken on that point. Therefore barrier to to entry has gotten tougher.
1
731chopper
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8/22/2017 6:12pm
To lighten the mood I will say that there is a group of 4 kids in my neighborhood probably age 9-12 that ride trail bikes up and down our streets together. They saw me washing my bikes after a race weekend one day and stopped to look. I tried saying hello but they were shy which I understand. There was also a nice kid around 10 years old probably that came up to my 3 year old and I one day while we were at one of our parks with our oset to talk about dirt bikes. He said he had one but didn't know what it was.

Having said that, I think the problem that can be corrected is in the grass roots of the sport at the amateur level. Over the past 10-15 years we all let the tracks get too damn dangerous and the bikes too damn fast. Almost all of my buddies that I grew up racing with are never coming back because it is "too dangerous". Other things like land owner liabilty, environmentalists, and economic factors that are just as damaging are largely outside of our control.
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Crush
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8/22/2017 6:34pm
So sounds like another team took a dive due to short-sighted contracts blocking team sponsors in the pits.

This sport can't get out of its own way sometimes.
TJMX947
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8/22/2017 6:59pm
JC21 wrote:
Jumps, jumps, jumps - they are killing MX.

Imagine you're playing little league but have to face a 100mph fast ball.
Juice_Mann wrote:
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless...
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless to say I've got bills to pay. There's no way in hell I'm hucking a giant triple step down or a do or die gap jump like I used to in my teens. MX tracks piss me off to the point where I don't even want to ride them anymore with all these stupid jumps. I like a big jump here and there, but they should be forgiving. Like step ups, tables, or doubles with sizable landings. Motocross isn't about jumps anyway. And yeah I'm not sure I want my future children to race unless these tracks start getting a little tamer. Some of the shit I've seen kids have to jump on a mini to be competitive is unbelievable and I wouldn't be comfortable with mine doing that.
Agreed. 33 here with Kids and a mortgage. I came out on the wrong end of a battle with a water truck a few years ago and it hurt my confidence with jumping.

It definitely seems like tracks are trying to project this professional persona by building massive jumps. Its crazy what a person who is just getting started must think when they see what they're expected to jump. I was riding a few months back and a kid in his late teens/early 20s had a nice late model KTM and nice gear. You could tell he was a total beginner and was struggling pretty bad. He literally did one moto and packed it up. I felt bad, I probably should have talked to him, he might have quit for good.

Nascarnate326 mentioned how people with roached bikes don't feel welcome at mx races. I was totally that kid in 2003. I had a '98 CR125 and at that time NOBODY at the track had a bike older than the previous season. I had more fun racing my first season than any season since. I just wanted to ride and race. I wanted a new bike so bad but that was all I could afford (paying my parents $50/week for it). Those were great times. I toy with the idea of going back to a 125 but like all hardcore moto guys my ego gets the best of me.
FIREfish148
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8/22/2017 7:28pm
I think some of it has to do with organization and effort of promoting local races as well. The lack of money going into local shops probably reinforced the lack of effort for shops to promote races too. Everyone buys from bto or Motorsport now.
1
mark911
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8/22/2017 7:39pm Edited Date/Time 8/22/2017 9:39pm
JC21 wrote:
Jumps, jumps, jumps - they are killing MX.

Imagine you're playing little league but have to face a 100mph fast ball.
Juice_Mann wrote:
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless...
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless to say I've got bills to pay. There's no way in hell I'm hucking a giant triple step down or a do or die gap jump like I used to in my teens. MX tracks piss me off to the point where I don't even want to ride them anymore with all these stupid jumps. I like a big jump here and there, but they should be forgiving. Like step ups, tables, or doubles with sizable landings. Motocross isn't about jumps anyway. And yeah I'm not sure I want my future children to race unless these tracks start getting a little tamer. Some of the shit I've seen kids have to jump on a mini to be competitive is unbelievable and I wouldn't be comfortable with mine doing that.
I also agree. I think there's a connection with the rise of SX, the subsequent incorporation of man made obstacles at the local level, and the decline in amateur participation.

MX offers a unique opportunity to satisfy several emotional needs. The need for excitement, competition, physical fitness, speed, challenge, etc. However, as strong as these needs can be they're nothing compared to the need for self preservation (safety), at least for most mortals! This is nothing new and anyone who's raced, past or present, instinctively manages the risks and rewards using their right hand. One simply goes a little slower before they reach that crossover point.

Unfortunately, there's no such option when it comes to most double jumps. It's typically do or die, and if you are risk adverse for whatever reason and don't feel comfortable you're just going to roll them. In addition, unlike natural terrain obstacles which can be practiced just about anywhere you can ride, jumps (at least ones like at the track) simply don't exist in nature so it's difficult to get comfortable.

This I believe has created two different camps in amateur MX, particularly vet MX. Those that jump and those that don't. The jumpers can't understand what the problem is, just pin it and fly. Those that don't think that's crazy thinking. Neither is right or wrong, it just is.

If it were a few jumps here and there it probably wouldn't matter that much in lap times, there are always ways to make up a few tenths. But with these jumps on almost every straight it's more like a few seconds per lap difference and almost impossible to make up without similar risk taking everywhere else. It's to the point where a rider can simply "putt putt" through the majority of the track and as long as they make the jumps can do well. Meanwhile, the non jumper tries to flow around a track designed for jumping and it's constantly interrupting and disrupting that flow making for a very frustrating race.

So what happens? The non jumper feels frustrated, non competitive, slow, and possibly in danger of being landed on. Basically, the opposite of why they started racing to begin with. With so many other options available to satisfy their needs what do you think they do? They stop racing/practicing MX. This happens (happened) very slowly over time so the evolution to jump tracks and riders seemed to be responding to the majority demand when in fact the majority simply silently left the sport.

With respect to new and younger participation, can you picture a parent attending their first SX race? Exciting, entertaining, heck yes. Gonna let your little one do that? Hell no, those guys are crazy!

Bottom line, in my opinion the sport, both in terms of participation and reasonable financial requirement, was at its peak when the tracks were more like the stuff we could ride at our local dirt lots, mountains, deserts, and OHV parks. Maybe we need to return to the past to preserve the future.

2
Radical
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8/22/2017 7:50pm
JC21 wrote:
Jumps, jumps, jumps - they are killing MX.

Imagine you're playing little league but have to face a 100mph fast ball.
Juice_Mann wrote:
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless...
I agree with this. I'm 26 years old, work 50 hours a week, own a house, married, and have my first child on the way. Needless to say I've got bills to pay. There's no way in hell I'm hucking a giant triple step down or a do or die gap jump like I used to in my teens. MX tracks piss me off to the point where I don't even want to ride them anymore with all these stupid jumps. I like a big jump here and there, but they should be forgiving. Like step ups, tables, or doubles with sizable landings. Motocross isn't about jumps anyway. And yeah I'm not sure I want my future children to race unless these tracks start getting a little tamer. Some of the shit I've seen kids have to jump on a mini to be competitive is unbelievable and I wouldn't be comfortable with mine doing that.
TJMX947 wrote:
Agreed. 33 here with Kids and a mortgage. I came out on the wrong end of a battle with a water truck a few years ago...
Agreed. 33 here with Kids and a mortgage. I came out on the wrong end of a battle with a water truck a few years ago and it hurt my confidence with jumping.

It definitely seems like tracks are trying to project this professional persona by building massive jumps. Its crazy what a person who is just getting started must think when they see what they're expected to jump. I was riding a few months back and a kid in his late teens/early 20s had a nice late model KTM and nice gear. You could tell he was a total beginner and was struggling pretty bad. He literally did one moto and packed it up. I felt bad, I probably should have talked to him, he might have quit for good.

Nascarnate326 mentioned how people with roached bikes don't feel welcome at mx races. I was totally that kid in 2003. I had a '98 CR125 and at that time NOBODY at the track had a bike older than the previous season. I had more fun racing my first season than any season since. I just wanted to ride and race. I wanted a new bike so bad but that was all I could afford (paying my parents $50/week for it). Those were great times. I toy with the idea of going back to a 125 but like all hardcore moto guys my ego gets the best of me.
A couple points here.

I agree on the tracks/bikes. I jump what I'm ready for. Until I feel comfortable, people faster than me can go around. I really, really like to jump by the way.

Also, we all have to ride what we have, and not worry about what others think about it. In 2003 I was riding an '88 CR125, arguably the oldest bike on the track. It's what I had, and I didn't care. For me it was either ride it, or not ride. In 2004 I upgraded to a brand new 2005 YZ125 which I still ride/race today.

125's are great. I'm 55 and will probably stay on 125's for the next 30 years or so. If you want one, get one! You won't regret it. It's all about having fun, and there are a lot of really fast riders (in my opinion) like my neighbor who are moving down to a 125. Besides, it's really cool when you holeshot the 450's in the vet classes Smile . I've done that once so far and expect to do it again soon.


1
kzizok
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8/22/2017 7:53pm Edited Date/Time 8/22/2017 7:58pm
Matthes wrote:
I haven't read all the way through this thread but what I can see if you guys are covering something that we didn't talk about and...
I haven't read all the way through this thread but what I can see if you guys are covering something that we didn't talk about and that's the health of MX in general at all levels. What Watson was talking about was how tough it is for a professional team to make it in the sport with the restrictions placed on them. All of our talk was about the pro teams in the sport. When a team like RCH with its connections and at one time all their sponsors almost folded before this year and they're done end of this year. That's scary for all the private teams out there.

As far as I can tell, amateur stuff is strong looking at the LL level and I feel the sport has rebounded from its low of a few years ago but I don't really know to be honest. Bike sales have risen the last few years I've been told but they're still half of what they were in the 2006's, etc.
LL's final race at the ranch operates in a vacuum. They are capped w/entries and there are still more people trying to qualify than there are spots. However, the area and regional turn outs are now shells of themselves. Add to that that Ponca, Branson, World Minis (I know people hate the NMA, but more people hated them while still coming in droves), are gone. Whitney-Oak Hill-Freestone Texas two step doesnt exist anymore. Obviously Whitney is gone, Freestone draws decent, Oak Hill draws less than local races, and is for sale. Mini O's is changing, who knows if it will be the same (I know it was a land issue), but its still an unknown. Add to that, many local racing venues are gone, or hanging on by a thread. So now, you have the infrastructure imploding on itself. The most current crop of rookie pros coming in now where the last group to ride the wave in (or at least, very close).

Things look to get very interesting as to what racing at the highest level will look like in about 2-5 years from now. Amatuer racing is not strong (for many reasons but participation numbers dont lie),and IMO, is of grave concern.
AZ35
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6/1/2008
Location
Glendale, AZ US
Fantasy
550th
8/22/2017 8:00pm Edited Date/Time 8/22/2017 9:09pm
mark911 wrote:
I also agree. I think there's a connection with the rise of SX, the subsequent incorporation of man made obstacles at the local level, and the...
I also agree. I think there's a connection with the rise of SX, the subsequent incorporation of man made obstacles at the local level, and the decline in amateur participation.

MX offers a unique opportunity to satisfy several emotional needs. The need for excitement, competition, physical fitness, speed, challenge, etc. However, as strong as these needs can be they're nothing compared to the need for self preservation (safety), at least for most mortals! This is nothing new and anyone who's raced, past or present, instinctively manages the risks and rewards using their right hand. One simply goes a little slower before they reach that crossover point.

Unfortunately, there's no such option when it comes to most double jumps. It's typically do or die, and if you are risk adverse for whatever reason and don't feel comfortable you're just going to roll them. In addition, unlike natural terrain obstacles which can be practiced just about anywhere you can ride, jumps (at least ones like at the track) simply don't exist in nature so it's difficult to get comfortable.

This I believe has created two different camps in amateur MX, particularly vet MX. Those that jump and those that don't. The jumpers can't understand what the problem is, just pin it and fly. Those that don't think that's crazy thinking. Neither is right or wrong, it just is.

If it were a few jumps here and there it probably wouldn't matter that much in lap times, there are always ways to make up a few tenths. But with these jumps on almost every straight it's more like a few seconds per lap difference and almost impossible to make up without similar risk taking everywhere else. It's to the point where a rider can simply "putt putt" through the majority of the track and as long as they make the jumps can do well. Meanwhile, the non jumper tries to flow around a track designed for jumping and it's constantly interrupting and disrupting that flow making for a very frustrating race.

So what happens? The non jumper feels frustrated, non competitive, slow, and possibly in danger of being landed on. Basically, the opposite of why they started racing to begin with. With so many other options available to satisfy their needs what do you think they do? They stop racing/practicing MX. This happens (happened) very slowly over time so the evolution to jump tracks and riders seemed to be responding to the majority demand when in fact the majority simply silently left the sport.

With respect to new and younger participation, can you picture a parent attending their first SX race? Exciting, entertaining, heck yes. Gonna let your little one do that? Hell no, those guys are crazy!

Bottom line, in my opinion the sport, both in terms of participation and reasonable financial requirement, was at its peak when the tracks were more like the stuff we could ride at our local dirt lots, mountains, deserts, and OHV parks. Maybe we need to return to the past to preserve the future.

You just described my personal experiences, exactly why after 36 years of living and breathing MX (at least owning MX bikes and hitting the track whenever possible) I sold the MX bikes and bought a dual sport (but it is a FC450 Husky converted to barely legal dual sport status). I can go legally ride almost anywhere, not the same "thrill" or rush as a MX track but I am going to come home safe.

I finally reached the age where my desire to not hit the "easy" double jump was too much. I did not ride the tracks enough to feel confident in my timing, I just got frustrated because I "sucked" even though I could do fine everywhere else but the doubles. Tabletops (even if they were too big to clear) were fine. I just did not want to end up in the hospital because of a bad decision.

Back in the late 80's I was a decent local "expert" rider so in my mind I could recall the "good old days" but that just did not translate into the confidence to clear every double no matter how big or small with my very limited riding opportunities. I would love a true Vet track, with just "easy" jumps that did not make it a do or die option. But that just does not exist because all the young kids want the cool jumps like SX.

Edit- Get off my lawn... I sound so old, but I am so I guess I get to sound old. Doesn't mean I lost my desire to enjoy riding MX, just found my realization of risk vs. life reality choices and good decisions.
1
Rockinar
Posts
1064
Joined
9/16/2016
Location
Katy, TX US
8/22/2017 11:59pm
$8500 - $10,000 for a new bike, Extremely high chance you will end up in an ER in really bad shape, and pretty decent chance you might get paralyzed or killed. Beginner classes full of non beginners.


If you have 3 kids, you costs and odds just quadrupled.


GNCC offroad is where its at. 2 strokes are still alive in it and you will see all kinds of bikes of all types. Slight lower cost and maintenance, lower chance of serious injury and death on trails, more family friendly (IMO).
philG
Posts
9719
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
8/23/2017 12:23am
Crush wrote:
So sounds like another team took a dive due to short-sighted contracts blocking team sponsors in the pits. This sport can't get out of its own...
So sounds like another team took a dive due to short-sighted contracts blocking team sponsors in the pits.

This sport can't get out of its own way sometimes.
Yup... that attitude only puts money in the pockets of 1 group, and its not the people providing the show,
oldblood
Posts
1860
Joined
4/21/2016
Location
Placerville, CA US
8/23/2017 12:37am
Mx has become too expensive, and people have become wussies. Bad combo.
1
JackLHyde
Posts
802
Joined
9/10/2006
Location
Nice Oak DE
8/23/2017 12:54am
We just had a round of our national series in the 450 and 85 class, not even 20 riders per class! On top of that 1/3 of the riders in the 450s weren't German either.
1
Dang It
Posts
94
Joined
1/12/2017
Location
Las Vegas, NV US
8/23/2017 1:01am
86honda wrote:
Mathes is single handedly destroying MX with that song
That song along with advertising that goes on forever. Have to fast forward through 50% of the show.Silly
philG
Posts
9719
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
8/23/2017 1:10am
We rode a practice track last weekend, all totally natural, graded nice, to let what rain we had soak in nice, track was perfect, not a single man made obstacle anywhere, place was rammed, don't recall seeing a single session stoppage or incident.

I did 5 sessions, rode 1.5 hours and felt fresh on sunday morning . compared to usual, where we ride a track that has only one straight that doesn't have a jump in it, after a day there I cant walk properly for a week.
2
mark911
Posts
360
Joined
3/28/2015
Location
Ashville, OH US
8/23/2017 1:14am
oldblood wrote:
Mx has become too expensive, and people have become wussies. Bad combo.
Take the bike out of the equation as much as possible by building tracks that don't reward power or suspension over ability. Instead of ripping tracks super deep just scrape them. Keep the turns relatively flat with plenty of 90s for inside out/outside in passing. Let the bumps form naturally (no stadium whoops or jumps). Run 3 motos (yes, I raced then). Handicap newer bikes with staggered starts. I'm sure there are other ideas to level the playing field. Basically, anything to keep the racing tight and fun without excess risk and breaking the bank.
1
steed 2.0
Posts
3485
Joined
9/27/2012
Location
Brabant NL
8/23/2017 1:34am
Rockinar wrote:
$8500 - $10,000 for a new bike, Extremely high chance you will end up in an ER in really bad shape, and pretty decent chance you...
$8500 - $10,000 for a new bike, Extremely high chance you will end up in an ER in really bad shape, and pretty decent chance you might get paralyzed or killed. Beginner classes full of non beginners.


If you have 3 kids, you costs and odds just quadrupled.


GNCC offroad is where its at. 2 strokes are still alive in it and you will see all kinds of bikes of all types. Slight lower cost and maintenance, lower chance of serious injury and death on trails, more family friendly (IMO).


1

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