Barcia trolling us about his forks: Air or Spring

JMX82
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Hyllykallio, FI
1/8/2021 12:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2021 12:29pm
J-Mill wrote:
I do not care for the AER air forks... I’m quite confident he is using the 52mm Cone Valve spring forks. They might have a different...
I do not care for the AER air forks... I’m quite confident he is using the 52mm Cone Valve spring forks. They might have a different mid valve than a cone but I’m pretty sure they’re not air....
Are you aware that there is an air version of the cone valve forks too? I'm sure he has an option to choose which version he will be using
Brent
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1/8/2021 12:35pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2021 12:46pm
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet".

...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building?

My guess is you have not ridden a bike with a newer air fork. They have come along way.

WP even produces an Xact Pro fork on par with a cone valve unit now.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/procomponents/offroad/xact-pro-7443/
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TeamGreen
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1/8/2021 12:42pm
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
Brent wrote:
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet". ...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building...
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet".

...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building?

My guess is you have not ridden a bike with a newer air fork. They have come along way.

WP even produces an Xact Pro fork on par with a cone valve unit now.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/procomponents/offroad/xact-pro-7443/
Hey! That wasn't very nice.

It was Funny and likely too true.

But, I'm docking you a 2 beer penalty in the name of unity.

Silly
2
5
mx317
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1/8/2021 2:18pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2021 2:22pm
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
Brent wrote:
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet". ...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building...
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet".

...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building?

My guess is you have not ridden a bike with a newer air fork. They have come along way.

WP even produces an Xact Pro fork on par with a cone valve unit now.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/procomponents/offroad/xact-pro-7443/
X act Pro is the new name for Cone Valve forks. They have had both air and spring cone valves.
1

The Shop

Brent
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1/8/2021 3:36pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2021 3:38pm
mx317 wrote:
X act Pro is the new name for Cone Valve forks. They have had both air and spring cone valves.
WP offers both the spring based cone valve Pro fork, and the AER version.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/en-us/offroad/
3
foreman52
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CA
1/8/2021 3:37pm
RaceFan wrote:
For me it's not about dislike as much as reality of watching him race over the years and waning support. Honestly think that red mist has...
For me it's not about dislike as much as reality of watching him race over the years and waning support.
Honestly think that red mist has gotten the better of him over the years and it's become hard to support 'cause it's only a matter of time till it happens again.

I'd like to see him pull off a solid season but I'm not putting money on it.
I agree with you.
tk2stroke
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1/8/2021 8:39pm Edited Date/Time 1/8/2021 9:12pm
seth505 wrote:
Didn't you know, the stock Yamaha fork is the holy grail and it can't get any better? Grinning
For production bikes, yes. Everyone knows.
I predicted/suggested in 2017 that the AER forks would be a generational fork for KTM over the next 10 years. The 2021 Xact AER are by many accounts on par or really close to the KYB SSS. WP was committed to this effort and it's likely going to pay off for them. It may take a few years before the market begins to realize it, but those who stay open minded will realize it starting this year.

While springs ramp up in a more linear fashion compared to the J-curve affect of air when it's compressed, make no mistake that those forces can be managed through smart engineering. For those who thing air forks cannot feel as good as spring forks, you are mistaken and it's highly plausible WP Xact air forks will surpass the performance of the SSS forks in the next couple of years.

It's a matter of basic physics.
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Bruce372
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1/8/2021 10:02pm
I hope I never see another set of fork springs again.

The AER forks are better than most of us, definitely not holding me back. Plus it takes minutes to setup a bike for another rider.

On the trials its nice light front end to lift over sfuff
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Tuna
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CA
1/9/2021 2:30am
seth505 wrote:
Didn't you know, the stock Yamaha fork is the holy grail and it can't get any better? Grinning
For production bikes, yes. Everyone knows.
tk2stroke wrote:
I predicted/suggested in 2017 that the AER forks would be a generational fork for KTM over the next 10 years. The 2021 Xact AER are by...
I predicted/suggested in 2017 that the AER forks would be a generational fork for KTM over the next 10 years. The 2021 Xact AER are by many accounts on par or really close to the KYB SSS. WP was committed to this effort and it's likely going to pay off for them. It may take a few years before the market begins to realize it, but those who stay open minded will realize it starting this year.

While springs ramp up in a more linear fashion compared to the J-curve affect of air when it's compressed, make no mistake that those forces can be managed through smart engineering. For those who thing air forks cannot feel as good as spring forks, you are mistaken and it's highly plausible WP Xact air forks will surpass the performance of the SSS forks in the next couple of years.

It's a matter of basic physics.
Not even close to the feel of a KYB spring fork.
I just bought a set of Luckies.
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mmcmx
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1/9/2021 2:34am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new AER forks are excellent.
Manny, with the recent talk about the Gas Gas, might some of the problems we atribute to the fork, be caused by the triple clamps instead?
1/9/2021 4:54am
ML512 wrote:
Star racing is on air forks and has been since 2013.
Are they still on KYB PSF1 forks ? that in reality are very close to a production fork from 2013 minus some coatings ?
spimx
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1/9/2021 7:29am
I think showa should have continued development on the air forks. It seems like wp has made good progress, apparently the new air forks are very good.
They are lighter and offer a lot more adjustment
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spimx
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1/9/2021 7:32am
Tomac, Villipoto, James Stewart, Ryan Dungey
Most championships have been on air forks.
They just need to develop that quality for average guys
1/9/2021 9:35am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new AER forks are excellent.
I have my suspension at JBI right now getting revalved. I am staying air with the sub valve mod. I let JB know that you had recommended his shop on Vital. Thanks Manny! Have to ask...Is your new Husky gonna be 10 mil. lower than older year models?
TeamGreen
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1/9/2021 10:02am Edited Date/Time 1/9/2021 10:30am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new AER forks are excellent.
mmcmx wrote:
Manny, with the recent talk about the Gas Gas, might some of the problems we atribute to the fork, be caused by the triple clamps instead?
All the talk about how bad AERs are isn't about the new fork. It's about the older versions that had improved just a little bit over the years ('17-'20). But, the AERs I've been riding on everything since last-year's FE/RE have been excellent (many people call them the 2020.5 FE/RE). The new GasGas has the same fork.

Ping's Vital "GasGas" intro from a few weeks ago gives what I feel is a "spot on" description of the GasGas "feel"...to me the GasGas feels like a KTM with VERY expensive X-Trigs.
Grinning
Also, there's a video around here where Jay Clark takes the new forks apart at WP and he and a WP tech go over the changes of the new fork...and the Tech tries to convince Jay that you NEVER run "low pressure"...which EVERYONE should know...but...well...go watch the video. It's excellent.
Smile
1
TeamGreen
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1/9/2021 10:10am
TeamGreen wrote:
The new AER forks are excellent.
I have my suspension at JBI right now getting revalved. I am staying air with the sub valve mod. I let JB know that you had...
I have my suspension at JBI right now getting revalved. I am staying air with the sub valve mod. I let JB know that you had recommended his shop on Vital. Thanks Manny! Have to ask...Is your new Husky gonna be 10 mil. lower than older year models?
I'm building a new 450: it will be 10mm shorter. I think it'll be a Husky this time, too. Either way...or no matter if it's Orange, White or Red...I'm building it 10mm shorter.

Why? Because, over the years I'm sure I'm 10mm shorter...or...shorter than that! And, when I build my bike with the shorter set-up...I'm in good company!

Btw, JB has made a set of my 4CS forks work like CVs (The forks on my '15 FE350S). The dude is AMAZING.
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Zaugg
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1/9/2021 10:25am
MTB guys going back to coil and Pro MX/ SX going to air. What is the world coming to? I don't know who I should listen to so I know what to think? HAHAHAHA



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#434
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1/9/2021 10:27am
tk2stroke wrote:
I predicted/suggested in 2017 that the AER forks would be a generational fork for KTM over the next 10 years. The 2021 Xact AER are by...
I predicted/suggested in 2017 that the AER forks would be a generational fork for KTM over the next 10 years. The 2021 Xact AER are by many accounts on par or really close to the KYB SSS. WP was committed to this effort and it's likely going to pay off for them. It may take a few years before the market begins to realize it, but those who stay open minded will realize it starting this year.

While springs ramp up in a more linear fashion compared to the J-curve affect of air when it's compressed, make no mistake that those forces can be managed through smart engineering. For those who thing air forks cannot feel as good as spring forks, you are mistaken and it's highly plausible WP Xact air forks will surpass the performance of the SSS forks in the next couple of years.

It's a matter of basic physics.
If it’s just a matter of basic physics and smart engineering then why not share your wisdom in those matters with us?
How do you control temperature rise and pressure change and therefore improve the consistency of the air spring?
How can you do get a more linear characteristic from an air spring without going overboard on multiple chambers and so on?
Metal springs are replaced with air springs for weight and cost savings but not for performance. And don‘t get me wrong: I have the AER fork on my bike and like it a lot.
Zycki11
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1/9/2021 10:27am
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
Brent wrote:
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet". ...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building...
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet".

...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building?

My guess is you have not ridden a bike with a newer air fork. They have come along way.

WP even produces an Xact Pro fork on par with a cone valve unit now.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/procomponents/offroad/xact-pro-7443/
Shocking, another Californian who thinks they are better than everyone else😎
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4
1/9/2021 11:53am
TeamGreen wrote:
I'm building a new 450: it will be 10mm shorter. I think it'll be a Husky this time, too. Either way...or no matter if it's Orange...
I'm building a new 450: it will be 10mm shorter. I think it'll be a Husky this time, too. Either way...or no matter if it's Orange, White or Red...I'm building it 10mm shorter.

Why? Because, over the years I'm sure I'm 10mm shorter...or...shorter than that! And, when I build my bike with the shorter set-up...I'm in good company!

Btw, JB has made a set of my 4CS forks work like CVs (The forks on my '15 FE350S). The dude is AMAZING.
Sorry, my lack of proper context. I was referring to your cute new pup. (Woof )
I am interested to get your opinion on the lowered bike design since you do more than moto. I have read mostly pro and a few con's on the subject.
1
tk2stroke
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1/9/2021 12:14pm
Tuna wrote:
Not even close to the feel of a KYB spring fork.
I just bought a set of Luckies.
To each their own. Prediction #2, this post ^^^ won't age well after the market gets more time on the new AER's. They may not say it's better, but "not even close" will likely be replaced with "on par or equal to with the KYB SSS".
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Brent
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1/9/2021 5:51pm
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
Brent wrote:
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet". ...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building...
Sure, another conspiracy theory - "they are paying him to stay quiet".

...and here I thought all the conspiracy idiots were busy storming the capital building?

My guess is you have not ridden a bike with a newer air fork. They have come along way.

WP even produces an Xact Pro fork on par with a cone valve unit now.

https://www.wp-suspension.com/procomponents/offroad/xact-pro-7443/
Zycki11 wrote:
Shocking, another Californian who thinks they are better than everyone else😎
I’m no better than you.

What difference does it make where I’m from?
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spimx
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1/9/2021 7:30pm
#434 wrote:
If it’s just a matter of basic physics and smart engineering then why not share your wisdom in those matters with us? How do you control...
If it’s just a matter of basic physics and smart engineering then why not share your wisdom in those matters with us?
How do you control temperature rise and pressure change and therefore improve the consistency of the air spring?
How can you do get a more linear characteristic from an air spring without going overboard on multiple chambers and so on?
Metal springs are replaced with air springs for weight and cost savings but not for performance. And don‘t get me wrong: I have the AER fork on my bike and like it a lot.
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top out. Weight is a performance factor and so is tuning and adjustability. If weight and cost were the only reason to run air forks that technology would not have so many championships
1/9/2021 8:25pm
spimx wrote:
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top...
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top out. Weight is a performance factor and so is tuning and adjustability. If weight and cost were the only reason to run air forks that technology would not have so many championships
Actually that’s not correct. When the fork tops out it equalizes pressure between the positive and negative chambers. Unfortunately as the fork heats up this pressure does climb. In my experience the best approach is to check the pressure after riding a short practice moto and then again in the middle of your ride day, if you can. Once it’s up to operating temperature, and assuming ambient temperatures are fairly stable you should be in good shape. It’s also good practice to open the bleeders at least once a day on air or spring forks.
spimx
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1/9/2021 9:10pm
spimx wrote:
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top...
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top out. Weight is a performance factor and so is tuning and adjustability. If weight and cost were the only reason to run air forks that technology would not have so many championships
Actually that’s not correct. When the fork tops out it equalizes pressure between the positive and negative chambers. Unfortunately as the fork heats up this pressure...
Actually that’s not correct. When the fork tops out it equalizes pressure between the positive and negative chambers. Unfortunately as the fork heats up this pressure does climb. In my experience the best approach is to check the pressure after riding a short practice moto and then again in the middle of your ride day, if you can. Once it’s up to operating temperature, and assuming ambient temperatures are fairly stable you should be in good shape. It’s also good practice to open the bleeders at least once a day on air or spring forks.
Yea, I don't even check the pressures until I've finished my sight laps and I check the pressures every day I ride.
Crazy that the difference between my OEM showa air forks and the a-kit Showa air forks is that the pressures in the A-kit forks barely ever changes.
#434
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1/10/2021 2:13am
#434 wrote:
If it’s just a matter of basic physics and smart engineering then why not share your wisdom in those matters with us? How do you control...
If it’s just a matter of basic physics and smart engineering then why not share your wisdom in those matters with us?
How do you control temperature rise and pressure change and therefore improve the consistency of the air spring?
How can you do get a more linear characteristic from an air spring without going overboard on multiple chambers and so on?
Metal springs are replaced with air springs for weight and cost savings but not for performance. And don‘t get me wrong: I have the AER fork on my bike and like it a lot.
spimx wrote:
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top...
The way they control pressure changes is with the equalizer valve that equalizes the pressures between the inner and ballance chamber every time the forks top out. Weight is a performance factor and so is tuning and adjustability. If weight and cost were the only reason to run air forks that technology would not have so many championships
The equalizer valve is there so you do not have to adjust the balance chamber too. The Cone valve AER fork doesn‘t have that for example.
Temp/pressure rise is a problem with air springs for the general user. That’s why it’s a good idea to separate the air spring from the damping circuit (like in the AER). Race teams can use nitrogen (pressure doesn‘t change as much with temperature) or warm up the forks before a session. I do a few warmup laps, then set the pressure in my forks and never a problem with. However I‘m not very fast and only ride for 15 mins.

I was speaking about suspension performance only. If weight, adjustability and very progressive suspension characteristic (like it mx bikes and bicycles) is important for the overall performance of the bike an air spring can be the better package. But the basic limitations of an air spring don‘t go away, also not with ‚smart engineering‘.
cloud41
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1/10/2021 6:24am
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
ML512 wrote:
Star racing is on air forks and has been since 2013.
Star racing isn’t running WP air forks...
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ML512
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1/10/2021 6:56am
cloud41 wrote:
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas...
Austrian brands holding onto the air fork like it’s the last piece of bread in a famine. Barcia knows the air forks are junk and gas gas told him to stay hush.
ML512 wrote:
Star racing is on air forks and has been since 2013.
cloud41 wrote:
Star racing isn’t running WP air forks...
You generalized air forks when saying they’re junk, so I responded with a team that has had and continues to have success on air forks.
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Hasletjoe
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1/10/2021 7:24am
All forks use air in some quantity, well maybe not these......


mmcmx
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1/10/2021 10:21am
ML512 wrote:
Star racing is on air forks and has been since 2013.
cloud41 wrote:
Star racing isn’t running WP air forks...
ML512 wrote:
You generalized air forks when saying they’re junk, so I responded with a team that has had and continues to have success on air forks.
If you had the money and the optionality, what suspension would you choose? On what bike? Not for a pro, for you, to have fun at Cahiulla let's say.
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