Pro Circuit Kawasaki

visser62
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visser62 11/15/2020 7:01pm
11/15/2020 7:01pm
When are we going to get the official news on Shimoda to PC?
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Falcon
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Falcon 11/15/2020 7:03pm
11/15/2020 7:03pm
Every now and then, someone looks up the statistics and comes to a conclusion. These conclusions almost always completely ignore the fact that motocross is, was, and always will be an individual sport. It doesn't matter all that much if the Yamaha makes .5hp more than the Kawasaki, or that the Suzuki 450 was designed when propeller planes were the big thing; these races and championships are won by individuals.
Just because Mitch hasn't had as many kick ass + dedicated + lucky + strong + individuals as Star doesn't mean that the Pro Circuit team sucks.
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Cayden Thompson 11/15/2020 7:14pm
11/15/2020 7:14pm
Falcon wrote:
Every now and then, someone looks up the statistics and comes to a conclusion. These conclusions almost always completely ignore the fact that motocross is, was...
Every now and then, someone looks up the statistics and comes to a conclusion. These conclusions almost always completely ignore the fact that motocross is, was, and always will be an individual sport. It doesn't matter all that much if the Yamaha makes .5hp more than the Kawasaki, or that the Suzuki 450 was designed when propeller planes were the big thing; these races and championships are won by individuals.
Just because Mitch hasn't had as many kick ass + dedicated + lucky + strong + individuals as Star doesn't mean that the Pro Circuit team sucks.
Yes and why haven't they had many kick ass, dedicated, lucky, strong riders lately?
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 11/15/2020 7:58pm
11/15/2020 7:58pm
Cayden Thompson wrote:
Yes and why haven't they had many kick ass, dedicated, lucky, strong riders lately?
Farm system

Blu Cru is working out better than Team Green at the moment.
In a couple years, it'll swing another direction
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Cayden Thompson 11/15/2020 8:44pm
11/15/2020 8:44pm
Cayden Thompson wrote:
Yes and why haven't they had many kick ass, dedicated, lucky, strong riders lately?
EngIceDave wrote:
Farm system

Blu Cru is working out better than Team Green at the moment.
In a couple years, it'll swing another direction
Time will tell. Curious to see if the new 21 KX250 helps any.
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Redrcr34
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Redrcr34 11/15/2020 9:29pm
11/15/2020 9:29pm
DynoDan22 wrote:
The '93-'03 Kawi 125's weren't the best bikes by a long shot and Mitch's team still produced results. I shudder to think how hard he had...
The '93-'03 Kawi 125's weren't the best bikes by a long shot and Mitch's team still produced results. I shudder to think how hard he had to work to get those early KX125 motors to be competitive versus the CR's and the '96 and up YZ125's. Mitch won many titles on bikes that weren't the class leader. My opinion is he's had some bad luck and his riders also threw away more than a few titles.
omalley wrote:
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back...
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back and forth as a progression through the feature (time period), commenting on their perspective and involvement. There was one on PC’s teams from Honda into Kawasaki. You’re correct-Mitch and Co burned a lot of midnight oil trying to get those bikes to be competitive. They were junk, and only one out of a few parts were good (like cylinders). They were getting factory new parts and having to toss them.
Think it was an article in Mxa 4 or 5 years ago.
RalphS
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RalphS 11/15/2020 9:37pm
11/15/2020 9:37pm
Let's use these examples of the last 4 seasons:
AC9 '19 SX loss ain't PC fault.
JS17 '17 SX loss ain't PC fault.
JS17 and AC9 (in the same coast) losing '18 SX against AP7 ain't PC fault.
Forkner crashing out of '19 & '20 titles ain't PC fault.
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chuckdavies 11/16/2020 2:36am
11/16/2020 2:36am
DynoDan22 wrote:
The '93-'03 Kawi 125's weren't the best bikes by a long shot and Mitch's team still produced results. I shudder to think how hard he had...
The '93-'03 Kawi 125's weren't the best bikes by a long shot and Mitch's team still produced results. I shudder to think how hard he had to work to get those early KX125 motors to be competitive versus the CR's and the '96 and up YZ125's. Mitch won many titles on bikes that weren't the class leader. My opinion is he's had some bad luck and his riders also threw away more than a few titles.
omalley wrote:
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back...
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back and forth as a progression through the feature (time period), commenting on their perspective and involvement. There was one on PC’s teams from Honda into Kawasaki. You’re correct-Mitch and Co burned a lot of midnight oil trying to get those bikes to be competitive. They were junk, and only one out of a few parts were good (like cylinders). They were getting factory new parts and having to toss them.
Redrcr34 wrote:
Think it was an article in Mxa 4 or 5 years ago.
It was a Steve Matthes article on RacerX online called 'A season on the brink'. If you haven't read it, you should:

https://racerxonline.com/2016/08/30/longform-pro-circuit-a-season-on-th…

The quotes you were referencing were for the 93 KX's - clearly the Kawi quality improved after those older bikes but those 93's sounded like dogs out the crate!

I read online that PC's first day on the 2021 was yesterday, so expect photos soon. I guess with the new bike they needed a bit of time to get a baseline motor/suspension setup together before getting all their guys onto the new bike. Hoping for a good year for PC in 21 - i don't think the bikes/team have been the issue at all. More the riders and mistakes/injuries.
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MXMattii
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MXMattii 11/16/2020 8:20am
11/16/2020 8:20am
Xeno wrote:
I say Ferrandis would have very similar results on a Pro Circuit race bike.
Painful detail is that Mitch had the first choice to sign Ferrandis when he came to the US. That was a clause in his Kawasaki contract, but back then it didn't fit for Mitch. Sometimes a little decision like that, makes that you are after the eight ball for a few years.
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visser62
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visser62 11/16/2020 8:24am
11/16/2020 8:24am
I feel like the difference between bikes is apparent, but not in terms of the championship. If Ferrandis wins, or AC wins, it's because he's the best guy. Where you can see Star has the better bike is in that all of their guys start up front and many of them finish up there. But when it comes to winning it still comes down to the best guy.
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mx510
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mx510 11/16/2020 8:27am
11/16/2020 8:27am
EngIceDave wrote:
AC not winning a title was an AC problem, not a PC problem.

Same for Forkner
Ummmmm AC did win a title.
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stremme12
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stremme12 11/16/2020 8:36am
11/16/2020 8:36am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2020 8:37am
We probably will never know the details of the contracts but didn't Mitch want Jmart really bad but lost him to Star?

Star having a 450 team now has to make them even more attractive to 250 riders.
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loftyair
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loftyair 11/16/2020 8:42am
11/16/2020 8:42am
I think bad luck of course has its problems. But, it seems the last handful of years, Mitch hasnt been getting more than 1 or 2 top guys. he's been giving rides to lesser unproven kids. Now that the higher talent has more to choose from, having the money just isnt there. He and the bike are solid.
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EngIceDave
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EngIceDave 11/16/2020 8:45am
11/16/2020 8:45am
EngIceDave wrote:
AC not winning a title was an AC problem, not a PC problem.

Same for Forkner
mx510 wrote:
Ummmmm AC did win a title.
Excuse me, "in SX"

Have a nice day
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Falcon
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Falcon 11/16/2020 8:58am
11/16/2020 8:58am
Falcon wrote:
Every now and then, someone looks up the statistics and comes to a conclusion. These conclusions almost always completely ignore the fact that motocross is, was...
Every now and then, someone looks up the statistics and comes to a conclusion. These conclusions almost always completely ignore the fact that motocross is, was, and always will be an individual sport. It doesn't matter all that much if the Yamaha makes .5hp more than the Kawasaki, or that the Suzuki 450 was designed when propeller planes were the big thing; these races and championships are won by individuals.
Just because Mitch hasn't had as many kick ass + dedicated + lucky + strong + individuals as Star doesn't mean that the Pro Circuit team sucks.
Cayden Thompson wrote:
Yes and why haven't they had many kick ass, dedicated, lucky, strong riders lately?
My point was that just because you don't win doesn't mean you aren't competitive. Let's say Eli Tomac wins one race. Does it mean that Team Honda Sucks and Ken Roczen should retire?
One person has to win. Only one can be the champion. It doesn't mean that everyone else is slipping or losing their edge.
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Redrcr34
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Redrcr34 11/16/2020 9:17am
11/16/2020 9:17am
omalley wrote:
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back...
For the life of me I can’t remember the name of the magazine feature, but it’s the one where all the folks involved get interviewed back and forth as a progression through the feature (time period), commenting on their perspective and involvement. There was one on PC’s teams from Honda into Kawasaki. You’re correct-Mitch and Co burned a lot of midnight oil trying to get those bikes to be competitive. They were junk, and only one out of a few parts were good (like cylinders). They were getting factory new parts and having to toss them.
Redrcr34 wrote:
Think it was an article in Mxa 4 or 5 years ago.
chuckdavies wrote:
It was a Steve Matthes article on RacerX online called 'A season on the brink'. If you haven't read it, you should: https://racerxonline.com/2016/08/30/longform-pro-circuit-a-season-on-the-brink The quotes you...
It was a Steve Matthes article on RacerX online called 'A season on the brink'. If you haven't read it, you should:

https://racerxonline.com/2016/08/30/longform-pro-circuit-a-season-on-th…

The quotes you were referencing were for the 93 KX's - clearly the Kawi quality improved after those older bikes but those 93's sounded like dogs out the crate!

I read online that PC's first day on the 2021 was yesterday, so expect photos soon. I guess with the new bike they needed a bit of time to get a baseline motor/suspension setup together before getting all their guys onto the new bike. Hoping for a good year for PC in 21 - i don't think the bikes/team have been the issue at all. More the riders and mistakes/injuries.
Thanks for posting Chuck, looking forward to reading that article again!
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duckdog77
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duckdog77 11/16/2020 9:21am
11/16/2020 9:21am
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title?

McGrath
Carmichael
Pourcel
Villopoto
Tedesco
Langston
Bagget
Wilson
Weimer
Savagty
AC
Tickle
Forkner
Wey
Hill

That pretty much covers the last 20 years at least. All have A title or were in the running to be a title contender.
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mx216
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mx216 11/16/2020 4:19pm
11/16/2020 4:19pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2020 4:21pm
duckdog77 wrote:
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title? McGrath Carmichael Pourcel Villopoto Tedesco Langston Bagget...
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title?

McGrath
Carmichael
Pourcel
Villopoto
Tedesco
Langston
Bagget
Wilson
Weimer
Savagty
AC
Tickle
Forkner
Wey
Hill

That pretty much covers the last 20 years at least. All have A title or were in the running to be a title contender.
And even before then you can add
Pichon
Gaddis
Antunez
Ramsey
Brown
Bentley
Hughes

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ricky racer
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ricky racer 11/16/2020 4:33pm
11/16/2020 4:33pm
Seems to me that Kawasaki pays top dollar to buy the best armature prospect out there. Shooting their wad on one or two riders leaves them a shallow bench. Geico Honda and Star Racing pick up the remaining talent for less cost per rider and can hire more talent giving them a deeper bench. Once the PC star is hurt, their title run is over.
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kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 11/16/2020 4:37pm
11/16/2020 4:37pm
visser62 wrote:
When are we going to get the official news on Shimoda to PC?
They are waiting to have a giant news release and generate millions in sales, so we won’t know until that specific day!
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280driver
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280driver 11/16/2020 5:21pm
11/16/2020 5:21pm
280driver wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2020/11/16/459761/s1200_7E775B8F_3C4E_4691_BD65_EACCCF9A266A.jpg[/img]


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motoarmageddon 11/16/2020 5:23pm
11/16/2020 5:23pm
The 1993 Kawasaki KX125 actually was pretty fast. It won the MXA shootout that year. So idk why all the bashing of the bike. It did blow up like crazy though. And when you made it faster the reliability got worse. But that was a fast stock bike.
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numbers
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numbers 11/16/2020 6:02pm
11/16/2020 6:02pm
hubbardmx50 wrote:
Speaking of PC, why are they still riding the 2020 bike? Do they not have enough time to develop the 2021?
Keep blowing top ends. Japan can't keep the bike running fir more than 60 minutes at race pace.
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numbers
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numbers 11/16/2020 6:04pm
11/16/2020 6:04pm
motoarmageddon wrote:
The 1993 Kawasaki KX125 actually was pretty fast. It won the MXA shootout that year. So idk why all the bashing of the bike. It did...
The 1993 Kawasaki KX125 actually was pretty fast. It won the MXA shootout that year. So idk why all the bashing of the bike. It did blow up like crazy though. And when you made it faster the reliability got worse. But that was a fast stock bike.
Reynards dad made a Kawi 125 run so good Mitcg was chomping at the bit to look inside. Never happened.
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feelnjstfine
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feelnjstfine 11/16/2020 8:00pm
11/16/2020 8:00pm
duckdog77 wrote:
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title? McGrath Carmichael Pourcel Villopoto Tedesco Langston Bagget...
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title?

McGrath
Carmichael
Pourcel
Villopoto
Tedesco
Langston
Bagget
Wilson
Weimer
Savagty
AC
Tickle
Forkner
Wey
Hill

That pretty much covers the last 20 years at least. All have A title or were in the running to be a title contender.
mx216 wrote:
And even before then you can add
Pichon
Gaddis
Antunez
Ramsey
Brown
Bentley
Hughes

Can't forget:
Swink
Lamson
Buehl
2
TXDirt
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TXDirt 11/16/2020 9:01pm
11/16/2020 9:01pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2020 9:03pm
Very simple. Back in the 90s and early 2000s PC had their pick of every top amateur available. They could build a powerhouse team of four riders with each one capable of being a champion. When a rider got hurt it didn’t affect their chances of winning a title.

For the last 10-12 years the other teams have invested heavily at the amateur level. So now PC is unable to build the same powerhouse team. Sure the top rider still goes to PC, like AC and Forkner. But as soon as that rider gets hurt then all title hopes go down the toilet.

So now the talent is no longer concentrated around PC but is spread amongst several capable teams.

This sport is 95% rider and 5% bike. So bike doesn’t make a champion. The rider makes a bike a champion. It’s always been that way.
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mx216
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mx216 11/16/2020 10:05pm
11/16/2020 10:05pm
duckdog77 wrote:
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title? McGrath Carmichael Pourcel Villopoto Tedesco Langston Bagget...
Can any one name the last time PC Kawasaki didn’t have a rider that could contend for the title?

McGrath
Carmichael
Pourcel
Villopoto
Tedesco
Langston
Bagget
Wilson
Weimer
Savagty
AC
Tickle
Forkner
Wey
Hill

That pretty much covers the last 20 years at least. All have A title or were in the running to be a title contender.
mx216 wrote:
And even before then you can add
Pichon
Gaddis
Antunez
Ramsey
Brown
Bentley
Hughes

feelnjstfine wrote:
Can't forget:
Swink
Lamson
Buehl
Theres just too many!!
Motofinne
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Motofinne 11/16/2020 10:30pm
11/16/2020 10:30pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2020 11:43pm
ricky racer wrote:
Seems to me that Kawasaki pays top dollar to buy the best armature prospect out there. Shooting their wad on one or two riders leaves them...
Seems to me that Kawasaki pays top dollar to buy the best armature prospect out there. Shooting their wad on one or two riders leaves them a shallow bench. Geico Honda and Star Racing pick up the remaining talent for less cost per rider and can hire more talent giving them a deeper bench. Once the PC star is hurt, their title run is over.
And Mitch used to bring over good riders from the GPs. Tonus failed but that was mainly because of him being sick and injured, lets not forget that he qualified 3rd in his first ever 250 SX. So Mitch was unlucky there.

But like others have said, he missed out on Ferrandis even though Ferrandis was a Kawasaki rider and said publicly he wanted to race for Mitch. Then you could've argued that he also missed out on the Lawrence brothers.

When the internal market for good amateurs gets more difficult and you also miss out on the talent outside of your market, you will eventually end up with a lesser team.
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