10 Year Neck Brace Study Results

12/12/2018 8:17am
RCMXracing wrote:
@AtlasBrace thank you for contributing to these discussions, it’s much appreciated by us Vitards. We have a lot of very knowledgeable members with all kinds of...
@AtlasBrace thank you for contributing to these discussions, it’s much appreciated by us Vitards. We have a lot of very knowledgeable members with all kinds of backgrounds that are all passionate about the safety of the sport. You addressed some testing that you do and that’s encouraging. Maybe some of the bigger organizations in the sport will step up and fund more testing. IMHO the Impact Effects on the Thoracic Spine need to be investigated.

I like to make decisions based on FACT not FEAR and make it a point to read past the headlines. More detailed information on the EMS report and follow up with the patients (voluntarily) would have been nice and maybe they will consider that in the future. But we have something and thanks to @actionsportsems for the work. And hey, maybe not too late to get some voluntary follow-ups with the patients? I WILL VOLUNTEER to help.

FWIW I’ll be taking a closer look at the Atlas Brace design. My original brace didn’t work out so well, maybe it’s time to consider an Atlas?
Like I have mentioned, there isn't much to gain from repeating all the lab testing we, and others, have already done - you would find the same results and be no further ahead.

We are already aware of how some Thoracic injuries can happen involving a brace - this is another reason why we have a flexible design, and 30mm of chest suspension... but they are still possible without a brace. Again, this is where the massive effort on potential secondary injuries came into play, and we already had solutions in place for these types of things back in 2011 (other companies still do not solve this). Anything you guys are asking for, we are 1000 steps ahead of already. We live this every day, and have poured all our resources and brain power into solving these problems for many many years.

Patient data is protected by law, so you will not hear from them, nor can you talk to them. You guys have to understand the value in this type of data is to zoom OUT and view from 10,000 feet, not to drill down infinitely to micro details. This way, you are able to get an accurate picture of neck brace effectiveness over a long time, with ALL the variables considered, and see if it is a net positive after all things are considered... turns out (according to this data), it is drastically better to be wearing a neck brace in all different situations. It is not possible to drill down to the levels you are asking for real world accidents, too many variables... BUT....

The opposite is true for Lab data - that is where it is very important to drill down, isolate as many variables as possible to create a controlled, repeatable environment with accurate results. Which we do! This level of control is not possible at the track on a Sunday.

These results are not fear based, they are factual unbiased data recordings from a team of people who have nothing to gain from their results (other than hopefully making their job easier on Sunday). The only way real world data can be better than this study, is if there is more of it from other parts of the world. 10 years and 10,000 people from our little sport is an incredible amount of data.
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12/12/2018 9:59am
This is an observational study that is used by epidemiologists. It is a widely accepted practice and is "scientific."

You cannot do a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study to look at smoking risk, for example. Or to test an HIV vaccine. Or to look at the effectiveness of seat belts. Instead, you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome.

You'd rightly go to jail for putting people in a car with a placebo seat belt and running them into a wall at a controlled speed. Or, purposely trying to infect someone with HIV.

I love my Atlas brace and wouldn't ride without it.
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RichieW13
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12/12/2018 10:09am
This is an observational study that is used by epidemiologists. It is a widely accepted practice and is "scientific." You cannot do a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study...
This is an observational study that is used by epidemiologists. It is a widely accepted practice and is "scientific."

You cannot do a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study to look at smoking risk, for example. Or to test an HIV vaccine. Or to look at the effectiveness of seat belts. Instead, you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome.

You'd rightly go to jail for putting people in a car with a placebo seat belt and running them into a wall at a controlled speed. Or, purposely trying to infect someone with HIV.

I love my Atlas brace and wouldn't ride without it.
"you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome."

But isn't it important to know how many people in the study are actually using the proposed intervention (neck braces)? We can infer about a 45% rate of neck braces based on the sample of treated patients. But there are many variables that could lead to a different rate in the general sample.

The injury rate data is overwhelming enough that it seems clear that neck braces can be helpful. But the actual magnitude of that help is unknown.

And the other problem for me is that this data shows that "neck braces" are helpful, but there have been many different neck brace designs over the past decade. Are they all equally helpful? How would I know which design to buy?

kb228
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12/12/2018 10:18am
This is an observational study that is used by epidemiologists. It is a widely accepted practice and is "scientific." You cannot do a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study...
This is an observational study that is used by epidemiologists. It is a widely accepted practice and is "scientific."

You cannot do a double-blinded, placebo-controlled study to look at smoking risk, for example. Or to test an HIV vaccine. Or to look at the effectiveness of seat belts. Instead, you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome.

You'd rightly go to jail for putting people in a car with a placebo seat belt and running them into a wall at a controlled speed. Or, purposely trying to infect someone with HIV.

I love my Atlas brace and wouldn't ride without it.
RichieW13 wrote:
"you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome." But isn't it important to know how many people in...
"you look at outcomes (e.g., death) and ask whether the proposed intervention reduced the undesirable outcome."

But isn't it important to know how many people in the study are actually using the proposed intervention (neck braces)? We can infer about a 45% rate of neck braces based on the sample of treated patients. But there are many variables that could lead to a different rate in the general sample.

The injury rate data is overwhelming enough that it seems clear that neck braces can be helpful. But the actual magnitude of that help is unknown.

And the other problem for me is that this data shows that "neck braces" are helpful, but there have been many different neck brace designs over the past decade. Are they all equally helpful? How would I know which design to buy?

How do you know what helmet tech is best? Mips vs 6d vs shoei. Guess its best to not wear one till we know. Something is much better than nothing.
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The Shop

RichieW13
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12/12/2018 10:29am
kb228 wrote:
How do you know what helmet tech is best? Mips vs 6d vs shoei. Guess its best to not wear one till we know. Something is...
How do you know what helmet tech is best? Mips vs 6d vs shoei. Guess its best to not wear one till we know. Something is much better than nothing.
"Something is much better than nothing. "

But is it? The arguments that people have made is that neck braces can sometimes cause other injuries. And certain designs may be more prone to do that than others.
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jlchapman117
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12/12/2018 10:42am
I emailed action sports regarding the lack of data relating to concussions. I personally am a strong supporter of neck braces and would like to give as much transparent data as possible.
While I do wish the data could have been included they said that it was not at a point that it was ready for publication



kb228
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12/12/2018 11:06am
kb228 wrote:
How do you know what helmet tech is best? Mips vs 6d vs shoei. Guess its best to not wear one till we know. Something is...
How do you know what helmet tech is best? Mips vs 6d vs shoei. Guess its best to not wear one till we know. Something is much better than nothing.
RichieW13 wrote:
"Something is much better than nothing. " But is it? The arguments that people have made is that neck braces can sometimes cause other injuries. And...
"Something is much better than nothing. "

But is it? The arguments that people have made is that neck braces can sometimes cause other injuries. And certain designs may be more prone to do that than others.
You want to break your neck or a collarbone?

You want a concussion or your head crushed?

RichieW13
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12/12/2018 11:39am
kb228 wrote:
You want to break your neck or a collarbone?

You want a concussion or your head crushed?

It depends on what risk rates are being traded. If I am trading 20 times more likely to have a collarbone (or other) injury for half as likely chance of neck injury, maybe I'd rather take my chances without the neck brace.
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swatdoc
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12/12/2018 11:57am
Richie - I’m speaking as a doctor here - believe me, you’re WAY better off with 20 broken collarbones than one serious cervical spine injury. If u lawn dart into the dirt and break your collarbone while wearing a brace, the brace has done its job. It transferred that force that would have gone into your neck into your shoulder instead. Bones heal great for the most part. Spinal chords - not so much.

If you’re like 99% of the population, you’ve taken some sort of prescription medication in your life. EVERY single drug has some possible side effect(s). Transferring your thinking over to that, you would have never taken a single medication in your life, and never will, because of the possibility of a side effect. It’s all about the benefit to risk ratio, and wearing a neck brace is pretty much a slam dunk.
I think a lot of you are just trying to justify your reason for not wearing one, and throwing out reasons that just don’t hold water. If you don’t want to wear one, don’t. Don’t wear a helmet, boots, or knee braces either. None of those have been control group/double-blind studied either. Helmets are studied just like Atlas is doing with braces - with analytical lab tests and real world data acquisition like done in the study here. Both show that helmets save lives. You can chose to ignore the tests and studies if you want, but saying the studies are worthless because they’re not control:double-blind is untrue
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RichieW13
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12/12/2018 12:11pm
swatdoc wrote:
Richie - I’m speaking as a doctor here - believe me, you’re WAY better off with 20 broken collarbones than one serious cervical spine injury. If...
Richie - I’m speaking as a doctor here - believe me, you’re WAY better off with 20 broken collarbones than one serious cervical spine injury. If u lawn dart into the dirt and break your collarbone while wearing a brace, the brace has done its job. It transferred that force that would have gone into your neck into your shoulder instead. Bones heal great for the most part. Spinal chords - not so much.

If you’re like 99% of the population, you’ve taken some sort of prescription medication in your life. EVERY single drug has some possible side effect(s). Transferring your thinking over to that, you would have never taken a single medication in your life, and never will, because of the possibility of a side effect. It’s all about the benefit to risk ratio, and wearing a neck brace is pretty much a slam dunk.
I think a lot of you are just trying to justify your reason for not wearing one, and throwing out reasons that just don’t hold water. If you don’t want to wear one, don’t. Don’t wear a helmet, boots, or knee braces either. None of those have been control group/double-blind studied either. Helmets are studied just like Atlas is doing with braces - with analytical lab tests and real world data acquisition like done in the study here. Both show that helmets save lives. You can chose to ignore the tests and studies if you want, but saying the studies are worthless because they’re not control:double-blind is untrue
Actually, this data has made me re-think my opinion on neck braces. What I am asking is: are all neck braces created equal? Do they all have significantly positive safety factors?

Of course I'm better off with 20 broken collarbones than one cervical spine injury. But I'm also worse off with 10 broken collarbones than zero broken collarbones.
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12/12/2018 1:59pm
kb228 wrote:
You want to break your neck or a collarbone?

You want a concussion or your head crushed?

RichieW13 wrote:
It depends on what risk rates are being traded. If I am trading 20 times more likely to have a collarbone (or other) injury for half...
It depends on what risk rates are being traded. If I am trading 20 times more likely to have a collarbone (or other) injury for half as likely chance of neck injury, maybe I'd rather take my chances without the neck brace.
FWIW you don't have to choose which injury you prefer.... The data shows the chances of both are (significantly) less likely with a neck brace on.
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Robgvx
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12/13/2018 2:17pm
Nothing to debate here. If you are convinced of the protection a neck brace provides (like me) then carry on.

If you weren’t, but are now convinced by this study then go buy one.

If you’re not convinced and seek to pick holes in the data in order to support your own belief that they’re ineffective then carry on not wearing one. I genuinely hope that you never regret your decision.
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12/13/2018 2:42pm Edited Date/Time 12/13/2018 2:43pm
I bet if Charles Darwin was still alive, you guys would argue his theory on Natural Selection ??
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Suns_PSD
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12/13/2018 3:22pm
Wow!

I have one of these just sitting in my gear bag. In fact I've bought 3 over the years and never wore any of them more than a handful of times.

I won't be riding again without a neck brace ever again.

Thanks for this.
Suns_PSD
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12/13/2018 3:50pm
It's worth noting, that the %s they used are really whack.

Even when normalized for the differences in the population size I'm getting no where NEAR the percents they are getting. Much larger percents in all but 1 case.

1 death with neckbrace, 4 deaths without. Even after correcting for the sample sizes the the risk of death when not wearing a brace is 322% higher than wearing a brace (admittedly that one is to small of a sample size. Where are they getting 69% from?
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bultokid
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12/14/2018 10:46am
Have worn neck brace from Day One when the Leatt first hit the shelves. I switched to the Atlas few years ago and can vouch that you don't even know you got it on. Believe in freedom of choice and to each his own but if there's a .000001% chance it'll save me I am wearing that sucker
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Indy mxer
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12/14/2018 3:16pm
bultokid wrote:
Have worn neck brace from Day One when the Leatt first hit the shelves. I switched to the Atlas few years ago and can vouch that...
Have worn neck brace from Day One when the Leatt first hit the shelves. I switched to the Atlas few years ago and can vouch that you don't even know you got it on. Believe in freedom of choice and to each his own but if there's a .000001% chance it'll save me I am wearing that sucker
My thoughts exactly. I did the same and bought one as soon as they came out. Except I'm still wearing a newer Leatt
Andy7
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12/14/2018 4:09pm
I don´t even know why people invest so much time researching, for example to develop a neck brace, when there are guys that already know that they don´t need one. Moreover, why did someone even bothered to collect this information, when some guys have the perfect alibi for not using one. I think that everyone should know that you don´t dress for the ride, you gear up for the wprst case scenario. Do you really want to argue with people who have study before developing a piece of protective equipment?
brimx153
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12/14/2018 9:58pm
kb228 wrote:
You want to break your neck or a collarbone?

You want a concussion or your head crushed?

RichieW13 wrote:
It depends on what risk rates are being traded. If I am trading 20 times more likely to have a collarbone (or other) injury for half...
It depends on what risk rates are being traded. If I am trading 20 times more likely to have a collarbone (or other) injury for half as likely chance of neck injury, maybe I'd rather take my chances without the neck brace.
AtlasBrace wrote:
FWIW you don't have to choose which injury you prefer.... The data shows the chances of both are (significantly) less likely with a neck brace on.
Honestly do you think wearing a neck brace can stop you breaking your collar bone ??? , I know more people broke there s not wearing one . But that proves nothing !!! I don't think it would cause you to break one . But saying it will stop you is like saying it will prevent you from breaking your arm . It wont affect you either way
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12/20/2018 11:44am
We at the LEATT-Lab would like to commend the EMS Action Sport team on their efforts made to inform all riders - from amateurs to pros, of the benefits of using neck protection to mitigate neck and collarbone injuries. We believe their time and energy devoted to assisting riders in making informed decisions and dispel untruths will go a long way to make our sport safer. This is truly a landmark article with significant findings.

Best Regards for the holiday season and safe and enjoyable riding all. – Leatt Lab

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Madmax31
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12/20/2018 11:57am Edited Date/Time 12/20/2018 12:04pm
brimx153 wrote:
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead They are all uncomfortable...
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me

Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead
They are all uncomfortable
They all restrict movement
None of the for right

How is this misinformation, everybody is made differently . I am sure some people dont even feel the things when there on. But it is not misinformation to say that a lot of people suffer from these complaints and that's why they don't wear them .
There is Ton s of riders I see riding with them who just can see up . Without moving there whole body to look up. Imo that's more dangerous that not wearing one ,
Again u could have a neck like Marv, in that case it is my going to stop you from any movement .then wear one all u want imo
I hear people say this a lot. WTF are you looking at, the moon? For the life of me, I don't know what you could possibly be talking about. I've never thought for a second that I couldn't possibly see anything with my brace that I could without. I'm a decent B rider and try to look ahead as much as possible.

WTH are you people trying to look at? The back or your jerseys? Or maybe you have a short neck or I have a long one?
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davbrucas
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12/23/2018 12:23pm
Weak observational study that does not back up their claims...

It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of these braces...they are like religion. You either believe in them or you do not.

FWIW, I am an emergency physician and I am atheist/agnostic.
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MPJC
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12/23/2018 1:21pm
davbrucas wrote:
Weak observational study that does not back up their claims... It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of these braces...they are like...
Weak observational study that does not back up their claims...

It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of these braces...they are like religion. You either believe in them or you do not.

FWIW, I am an emergency physician and I am atheist/agnostic.
I can't tell if this is serious - the middle paragraph sounds like sarcasm
Aimzzz
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9/8/2019 6:20am
brimx153 wrote:
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead They are all uncomfortable...
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me

Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead
They are all uncomfortable
They all restrict movement
None of the for right

How is this misinformation, everybody is made differently . I am sure some people dont even feel the things when there on. But it is not misinformation to say that a lot of people suffer from these complaints and that's why they don't wear them .
There is Ton s of riders I see riding with them who just can see up . Without moving there whole body to look up. Imo that's more dangerous that not wearing one ,
Again u could have a neck like Marv, in that case it is my going to stop you from any movement .then wear one all u want imo
Have you tried Leatt 5.5 with a loop on your body armour or chest strap? Had no problem looking up with mine Smile
9/8/2019 8:26am
brimx153 wrote:
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead They are all uncomfortable...
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me

Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead
They are all uncomfortable
They all restrict movement
None of the for right

How is this misinformation, everybody is made differently . I am sure some people dont even feel the things when there on. But it is not misinformation to say that a lot of people suffer from these complaints and that's why they don't wear them .
There is Ton s of riders I see riding with them who just can see up . Without moving there whole body to look up. Imo that's more dangerous that not wearing one ,
Again u could have a neck like Marv, in that case it is my going to stop you from any movement .then wear one all u want imo
Aimzzz wrote:
Have you tried Leatt 5.5 with a loop on your body armour or chest strap? Had no problem looking up with mine Smile
match it with a leatt chest pro and the straps on the shoulder hold the brace down as well.. look at pictures of marv closely as youll see the straps come up through the collar of his jersey
seth505
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9/8/2019 8:32am
davbrucas wrote:
Weak observational study that does not back up their claims... It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of these braces...they are like...
Weak observational study that does not back up their claims...

It would be nearly impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of these braces...they are like religion. You either believe in them or you do not.

FWIW, I am an emergency physician and I am atheist/agnostic.
What? You compared a tangible object to religion?
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Jerkolantern
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9/8/2019 8:44am
crusty_xx wrote:
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace... 1000...
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace...

1000 times more people get hurt with a car compared to a jetpack.
So jetpacks are safer now?
Just sold my truck. You may have saved my life. Where's that NASA number
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Aimzzz
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9/8/2019 11:46pm
brimx153 wrote:
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead They are all uncomfortable...
I 've tried on all neck braces , all of them for me

Stop me looking up hills and far enough ahead
They are all uncomfortable
They all restrict movement
None of the for right

How is this misinformation, everybody is made differently . I am sure some people dont even feel the things when there on. But it is not misinformation to say that a lot of people suffer from these complaints and that's why they don't wear them .
There is Ton s of riders I see riding with them who just can see up . Without moving there whole body to look up. Imo that's more dangerous that not wearing one ,
Again u could have a neck like Marv, in that case it is my going to stop you from any movement .then wear one all u want imo
Aimzzz wrote:
Have you tried Leatt 5.5 with a loop on your body armour or chest strap? Had no problem looking up with mine Smile
match it with a leatt chest pro and the straps on the shoulder hold the brace down as well.. look at pictures of marv closely as...
match it with a leatt chest pro and the straps on the shoulder hold the brace down as well.. look at pictures of marv closely as youll see the straps come up through the collar of his jersey
I wear the Leatt Airfit 3DF stuff and that loops onto the bottom of the brace. Hands down most comfortable gear I’ve worn
Francis377
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9/9/2019 3:22am
How can a neck brace decrease the likelihood of a collarbone injury?
I would love to see some demographics along with the rest of the data. Seems more as if people who wear neck braces are more risk averse in general and don’t wreck big like those without. Good on them for collecting all this data though. The likeliness of death should have been left out, far too few (thankfully) to have any meaning in regards to kneckbrace yes/no.

If the Atlas commercial on Pulp wasnt so fu#%ing cringe, I might even try one.
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Aimzzz
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9/9/2019 1:03pm
Francis377 wrote:
How can a neck brace decrease the likelihood of a collarbone injury? I would love to see some demographics along with the rest of the data...
How can a neck brace decrease the likelihood of a collarbone injury?
I would love to see some demographics along with the rest of the data. Seems more as if people who wear neck braces are more risk averse in general and don’t wreck big like those without. Good on them for collecting all this data though. The likeliness of death should have been left out, far too few (thankfully) to have any meaning in regards to kneckbrace yes/no.

If the Atlas commercial on Pulp wasnt so fu#%ing cringe, I might even try one.
It’s not supposed to prevent collarbone fractures, but neck injuries. I know the Leatt 5.5 manages to disperse over 40% of the forces away from your neck. They are supposed to dissipate the force away from your neck and vital parts. Eg always from neck, spine... they are rumoured to increase chance of collarbone breaks, but massively decrease neck breaks. Personally I’d go for a broken collarbone over a neck any day Smile
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