10 Year Neck Brace Study Results

tk2stroke
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12/7/2018 10:58pm
My neck hurts from reading this thread

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tk2stroke
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12/7/2018 11:11pm Edited Date/Time 12/7/2018 11:19pm
NorCal 50+
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12/7/2018 11:19pm Edited Date/Time 12/7/2018 11:33pm
I'm trying to get my head around this:
They are saying over the period, four people died and they didn't have a neck brace on, and one person died wearing a neck brace, so there is 69% increased chance of dying if you don't have a neck brace on?
Is that the way statistics analysis works? There is no statistical or scientific expertise referenced in the article, so it's kind of hard to say. You really need some type of scientific expertise to do a scientific study.

It's more accurate to say that over the sample period, 20% of people that died from cervical injury had a neck brace on, or 1 out of 5- I don't think you can draw the statistical conclusion they did. Am I missing something?
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jemcee
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12/7/2018 11:39pm
The problem with our sport and crash statistics is almost every crash is different and every crash has different forces.. Like how many people have gone through what Peick has? You could almost say none..
I like the idea of them and would no doubt ride with one!
I'm confused by those saying they would wear them but they're uncomfortable, I can tell ya a chair is pretty fucken uncomfortable! I'd rather be uncomfortable while riding instead of uncomfortable all of the time forever
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The Shop

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12/7/2018 11:56pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 12:05am
I think it's more anecdotal evidence than scientific. Like someone said, you would need to know the number of people who had crashes and were helped by the brace versus those who crashed and were not helped, or were injured more severely because of the brace. This is a study of injured people and how many of them happened to be wearing a brace or not. Using that logic you would be ignoring people who were protected by the brace and walked away!

They took the number of people who were injured or killed and counted how many had braces on and who didn't, drawing a conclusion from that while ignoring all other factors. In other words, in order for neck braces to look bad in this study, more injured and killed riders would have neck braces on than without, which given the ratio of riders that wear them- would be very bad for neck braces.
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Fearo
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12/8/2018 12:54am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 1:00am
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch.

There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because there are an infinite amount of variables to any crash.

But what is simply laughable is how some people completely discard this data for not being scientific enough. They are REAL world samples.

For years people complained about how the data that was given about by neck brace companies was too theoretical and not enough real world.. Well shit this is as real world as it gets. That doesn't mean this is the be all end all research into neck brace safety, it just means that this 'kind' of research is as good as it gets for this particular product.
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OT
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12/8/2018 2:40am
Naanak wrote:
I wear one but they really are uncomfortable and restrict movement.
Boots restrict movement, do you still wear those or your Adidas?
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1
12/8/2018 3:13am
crusty_xx wrote:
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace... 1000...
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace...

1000 times more people get hurt with a car compared to a jetpack.
So jetpacks are safer now?
drt410 wrote:
Yea so what do the results look like if the number of riders using one and not using one are equal. Thats the results which will...
Yea so what do the results look like if the number of riders using one and not using one are equal. Thats the results which will show if it is much safer or not.
That is the point of percentages. It make the sample size equal between the two categories. X injuries / number of users without vs. y injuries / user with
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12/8/2018 4:17am
The most important thing is, if you read the whole thread, people admitted they were wrong. A few people were angry about sample size, then realize they were wrong. And they even apologized. This is an amazing day for Vitards everywhere. ???
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12/8/2018 4:39am
crusty_xx wrote:
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace... 1000...
These numbers mean nothing if not put in relation of how many people wear a brace compared to the ones that don't wear a brace...

1000 times more people get hurt with a car compared to a jetpack.
So jetpacks are safer now?
I came to post the exact same thing. The numbers posted are irrelevant without data re: number of brace wearers/non-wearers. If 10% of riders wear a neck brace and neck brace wearers account for 10% of injuries, then statistically the brace doesn’t lower the risk of being injured.

Also the percentages show the person who wrote this knows nothing about statistics. For example, 25 injuries with, 250 injuries without = 1000% more, not 89%.

Now I’m not saying the conclusion is false, just that it is based on incomplete data so it can’t be considered as fact.

There was a scientific study done a few years back and the conclusions were published in Moto Verte. Basically The conclusion was that neck braces don’t lower the risk of spinal injury, it just moves it lower on the spine, so less risk of death, more risk of being paraplegic. I don't remember if it said anything about the risk of other injuries.
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lukemoto
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12/8/2018 4:40am
It would be cool to see a spine/neck protection airbag system that would inflate in a hard crash. They use them in moto gp so it must be good right?? The only problem I could see is with the frequency of crashes in motocross the device would have to be easy enough to reset.
12/8/2018 4:50am
Fearo wrote:
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch. There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because...
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch.

There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because there are an infinite amount of variables to any crash.

But what is simply laughable is how some people completely discard this data for not being scientific enough. They are REAL world samples.

For years people complained about how the data that was given about by neck brace companies was too theoretical and not enough real world.. Well shit this is as real world as it gets. That doesn't mean this is the be all end all research into neck brace safety, it just means that this 'kind' of research is as good as it gets for this particular product.
I’m sorry to say this conclusion HAS to be discarded. It only has value IF the number of wearers is exactly 50%.

Let’s use an extreme example just to show you my point:
Say the study is based on a sample of 10 000 riders, 1 of which wears a neck brace every time he’s on the track, and 9 999 of which never wears one. Then the conclusion would be that neck brace wearers sustain multiple injuries from multiple crashes while only a small portion of non wearers are likely to be injured once. This is the complete opposite of the conclusion shown here, using the exact same data provided.

This example is obviously bogus, but it shows that extrapolating from the data provided is pure speculation and proves nothing.
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cody41
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12/8/2018 5:15am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 5:16am
Neck braces come down to personal preference. Some people just don’t like them, myself included. It is no different than people who don’t wear chest protectors etc. Sure it may benefit you, but if it was really that big of a deal you would see every single pro wearing them and they don’t. On this note, you might as well wear a full blown body armor suit because statistics will show that one is less likely to sustain injury after wear it. Again, this is all personal preference.
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CM_84
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12/8/2018 5:52am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 6:22am
The study did exactly what it said, looked at head and neck injury statistics from a group of people.

People saying “it needed to look how many extra people crashed” etc.
I don’t think the study professes to answer every question, and that’s ok. Anyone is welcome to study any other topics they feel.

It’s a good study, good to see some real statistics over a long period of time. It also doesn’t say “you must wear a neck brace” the decision is still on the rider.
But stuff like this is much better than anecdotal stories from individuals.
DoctorJD
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12/8/2018 5:54am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 5:56am
I can add some more data. 1 month ago I crashed very hard. bruised the entire top of my head,large knot on right side of face...
I can add some more data.
1 month ago I crashed very hard. bruised the entire top of my head,large knot on right side of face ear level (googles hitting?) jaw wouldn't open fully for 2 weeks.brand new troy lee with mips. visor screw sheared away as designed. so thank you to troy and the inventor of mips. it saved my brain. I broke t3 and 4 into pieces. 2 rods and 10 screws. I was wearing an atlas. my neck was very swollen and rainbow of bruising. witness and surgeon/drs are sure the atlas brace saved my butt from being much worse. I had bruises where the 4 posts of the brace contact the body. the make you think moment I started my bike that day and realized I left my brace on the truck as I was heading to the track. turned around and put it on. I never had an issue with comfort of the new atlas design. the force and energy was loaded through the brace I can see and feel it. I am a believer and yes I know every crash is different. change my angle by a few degrees maybe nothing is broke. maybe its worse. you moto guys know when normal people say something was violent or a hard hit. well from a fellow moto guy this was a nasty one. so im thankful I can feel the pain and will be good eventually. after seeing others hurt I thought I would never want to be laying there wondering if a brace would have saved me. hopefully this helps someone. ride smart and safe brothers.
Similar story for us. Five years ago, my son rolled out of a corner on a SX track and tried to seat-bounce over a double. He missed a shift and got thrown OTB and hit the ground pretty hard. Our main concern at the time was his knee. He had somehow gashed his knee through his knee pads, and it was deep enough that you could see bone. The day after the crash, I was taking his gear out of his gear bag when I noticed that his Leatt brace was kinda wonky. I took a closer look and realized that both of the thoratic (sp?) braces had snapped. A little sore around the neck but no worse for the wear.

His head had snapped back upon impact and the brace limited the rearward motion. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. He hit with enough force to break both of those braces, and he only had a (mildly) sore neck. Now you can argue that this is all anecdotal evidence, and there's really no way that you could argue that he wouldn't have been injured without the brace. You can do that, but you will never convince me that he didn't avoid major neck injury due to the brace.

Look, I DGAF if you wear one, or not. That's totally 100% up to you. I respect your decision (to not wear one), and only ask that you respect mine.

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MPJC
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12/8/2018 6:03am
Fearo wrote:
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch. There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because...
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch.

There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because there are an infinite amount of variables to any crash.

But what is simply laughable is how some people completely discard this data for not being scientific enough. They are REAL world samples.

For years people complained about how the data that was given about by neck brace companies was too theoretical and not enough real world.. Well shit this is as real world as it gets. That doesn't mean this is the be all end all research into neck brace safety, it just means that this 'kind' of research is as good as it gets for this particular product.
Sheriff245 wrote:
I’m sorry to say this conclusion HAS to be discarded. It only has value IF the number of wearers is exactly 50%. Let’s use an extreme...
I’m sorry to say this conclusion HAS to be discarded. It only has value IF the number of wearers is exactly 50%.

Let’s use an extreme example just to show you my point:
Say the study is based on a sample of 10 000 riders, 1 of which wears a neck brace every time he’s on the track, and 9 999 of which never wears one. Then the conclusion would be that neck brace wearers sustain multiple injuries from multiple crashes while only a small portion of non wearers are likely to be injured once. This is the complete opposite of the conclusion shown here, using the exact same data provided.

This example is obviously bogus, but it shows that extrapolating from the data provided is pure speculation and proves nothing.
Good lord.
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MPJC
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12/8/2018 6:08am
Fearo wrote:
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch. There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because...
Suddenly, everyone is either a doctor or a mathematician up in this bitch.

There simply is no bulletproof scientific method to figure out these percentages, because there are an infinite amount of variables to any crash.

But what is simply laughable is how some people completely discard this data for not being scientific enough. They are REAL world samples.

For years people complained about how the data that was given about by neck brace companies was too theoretical and not enough real world.. Well shit this is as real world as it gets. That doesn't mean this is the be all end all research into neck brace safety, it just means that this 'kind' of research is as good as it gets for this particular product.
Well put. I wonder what exactly some take “scientific” to mean.
Forty
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12/8/2018 7:17am
tk2stroke wrote:
My neck hurts from reading this thread

Should have put the brace on before reading.
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tk2stroke
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12/8/2018 7:47am
This thread reaffirns the term vitards.

Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the entire study. if you did read it, go read it again slowly and take as many laps as needed to let it sink in.
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12/8/2018 7:48am
My son and I both ditched the braces about 3 years ago, and never looked back.
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12/8/2018 7:54am
Sheriff245 wrote:
I’m sorry to say this conclusion HAS to be discarded. It only has value IF the number of wearers is exactly 50%. Let’s use an extreme...
I’m sorry to say this conclusion HAS to be discarded. It only has value IF the number of wearers is exactly 50%.

Let’s use an extreme example just to show you my point:
Say the study is based on a sample of 10 000 riders, 1 of which wears a neck brace every time he’s on the track, and 9 999 of which never wears one. Then the conclusion would be that neck brace wearers sustain multiple injuries from multiple crashes while only a small portion of non wearers are likely to be injured once. This is the complete opposite of the conclusion shown here, using the exact same data provided.

This example is obviously bogus, but it shows that extrapolating from the data provided is pure speculation and proves nothing.
Quoted for stupidity
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JM485
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12/8/2018 8:07am
JM485 wrote:
Unless I'm missing something, this should address most of the statistical concerns brought up in this thread. This breaks things down by what percentage of riders...
Unless I'm missing something, this should address most of the statistical concerns brought up in this thread. This breaks things down by what percentage of riders who were under their care suffered a spinal injury based on whether they were wearing a brace or not. The sample size between brace wearers and non-brace wearers is relatively close, so this probably provides the best synopsis out of the whole article. From the wording this was obviously done with a result in mind, but the bottom line is this bit of data here paints a clear picture.
Just going to bump this to the next page since it seems reading is still hard for some people.

Again, this isn't a perfect statistic, but it it's pretty telling and addresses any concerns about sample size and distribution.
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kb228
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12/8/2018 8:11am
Gee wiz... wearing a neck provides better protection against becoming paralyzed. who woulda thunk it?

Kinda like wearing a helmet. Youre less likely to get a head injury wearing a helmet than without one. I heard a number like 82% of deaths on motorcycles occur when the rider wasnt wearing a helmet.

I cant believe some of you would risk your neck to save a collarbone. Have you even broken a collarbone before? Its not even a big deal. At least in comparison to your neck.

Helmets arent comfortable either. Bet some of you against neck braces have told people “your helmet is supposed to be a little uncomfortable when it fits right”. You could say the same about any protective gear. Yet none of you are riding in slippers and sweatpants are you?
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CM_84
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12/8/2018 8:18am
tk2stroke wrote:
This thread reaffirns the term vitards. Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the...
This thread reaffirns the term vitards.

Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the entire study. if you did read it, go read it again slowly and take as many laps as needed to let it sink in.
Couldn’t agree more
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Moto_Geek
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12/8/2018 8:49am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 8:55am
I've given up trying to defending VITARDS. This is a well-documented report and all the sudden everyone is a professional statistician. Smile I see too many recent spinal injuries changing peoples lives in our sport. The numbers speak volumes! Upgrading my neck brace for 2019 because of this report. PSA - Donate to @Road2Recovery today.
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Naanak
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12/8/2018 8:49am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 8:53am
Naanak wrote:
I wear one but they really are uncomfortable and restrict movement.
OT wrote:
Boots restrict movement, do you still wear those or your Adidas?
Yeah I use shoes you idiot. Also screw helmets they’re to heavy. Being a little uncomfortable is less important then safety so what’s your point? Bullet proof vests are extremely uncomfortable especially in the heat but cops wear them because it’s safer.
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tk2stroke
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12/8/2018 9:16am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 10:00am
This is how it feels trying to get through to those who are trying to discredit the report and claim it's basic conclusion is flawed. The percentages have been equalized between the differential of the sample size of neck brace and non neck brace injuries.

via GIPHY

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PRM31
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12/8/2018 9:47am
tk2stroke wrote:
This thread reaffirns the term vitards. Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the...
This thread reaffirns the term vitards.

Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the entire study. if you did read it, go read it again slowly and take as many laps as needed to let it sink in.
CM_84 wrote:
Couldn’t agree more
+2
4
Bermworm
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12/8/2018 10:24am
tk2stroke wrote:
This thread reaffirns the term vitards. Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the...
This thread reaffirns the term vitards.

Reading is fundamental, as is comprehension. If you are disputing the results and the math, actually go and read the entire study. if you did read it, go read it again slowly and take as many laps as needed to let it sink in.
CM_84 wrote:
Couldn’t agree more
Their are only 2 ways of doing anything science and bullshit.Bullshit might work but science will work.Problem is bullshitters are loud scientists quiet its not just Vital it's everywhere these days. PPE works it s not perfect but it works.
RCMXracing
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12/8/2018 10:26am
To the OP, thanks for sharing, someone cared enough to collect information and clearly concerned about rider safety. Unfortunately it is information, not data, and certainly not scientific and definitely not scientifically significant. There are no controls, and endless variables that are unaccounted for.
The report is anecdotal at best.
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