10 Year Neck Brace Study Results

disbanded
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12/8/2018 7:25pm
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as: 1. Motorcycle engine size 2. Soil/track surface...
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as:
1. Motorcycle engine size
2. Soil/track surface
3. Rider skill classification

I ride a 125, majority on sand (both by choice), and am a pro rider. I do not wear a neck brace. I do not like neck braces. I advocate them for riders of lesser skill (of whom are more likely to crash more often).

These statistics are very compelling. I will not be going to the dealer and buying a new brace, however.
The real world variable would be the more you ride the more likely you are to crash
jemcee
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12/8/2018 7:43pm
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries? Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape...
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries?

Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape quickly on a 450 than it is a 125.
That's true it is much easier to get out of shape on a 450 but the human body is not exactly equipped to crash into things going over 5mph so any dirt bike is a danger
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kb228
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12/8/2018 7:44pm
kb228 wrote:
Lets translate that to another comparison. Why are skilled supersport riders fulled geared in leathers and helmets while harley/cruiser riders wear work boots? Arent the lesser...
Lets translate that to another comparison.

Why are skilled supersport riders fulled geared in leathers and helmets while harley/cruiser riders wear work boots? Arent the lesser skilled riders(cruiser dudes) more likely to crash?

Why is someone who jumps 100ft jumps at 45mph be less of a concern for neck injuries than new riders going 20mph and jumping 20ft jumps or having tipovers in corners?

I dont think bike size, skill or dirt coditions matter. All it takes is the wrong angle to do it. Whether youre going 15mph or 40mph. Does not matter.

Everyone here is their own man. Nobody is trying to be someones mommy. Just understand the risks and stop trying to justify a stupid decision to not wear gear.
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries? Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape...
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries?

Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape quickly on a 450 than it is a 125.
Well yes. Theres not only sand. Theres trees, fences, other riders, rocks, etc. getting your head stuck in a rut the right way could tweak your neck too. I dont rule anything out. Anything is possible.
ama530
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12/8/2018 7:57pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 7:58pm
I think everyone should get rid of their gear since there is no scientific evidence saying that the gear protects you. And only newbees crash, right. Helmets - too hot and mats down my flowing locks. Goggles - impedes my peripheral vision. Boots - make my feet sweat, are too restrictive, and heavy. Knee braces - they break bones so gotta nix those too. Chest protectors - your kidding me right. I figure we should all be riding with a spandex shirt, shorts, flip flops, and some cool shades. Oh, I forgot were are already riding with spandex jerseys that shred like cheesecloth if you look at them sideways.

I crashed very hard back in June and my helmet, chest protector, and neck brace saved my butt.
3

The Shop

drt410
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12/8/2018 8:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 8:34pm
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as: 1. Motorcycle engine size 2. Soil/track surface...
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as:
1. Motorcycle engine size
2. Soil/track surface
3. Rider skill classification

I ride a 125, majority on sand (both by choice), and am a pro rider. I do not wear a neck brace. I do not like neck braces. I advocate them for riders of lesser skill (of whom are more likely to crash more often).

These statistics are very compelling. I will not be going to the dealer and buying a new brace, however.
jemcee wrote:
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward I was riding a 125 Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into...
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward
I was riding a 125
Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into it in any way Ernesto Fonseca? Jimmy Button?
I was definitely a decent rider who hardly crashed (in fact there's some who argue that people don't know how to crash properly, so less crashing = less practice)
Oh no, are you talking about Robby Marshall from New England? Is he paralyzed? I used to race the 85cc class in nema when him and some other fast kids were younger. If true thats terrible and I had not heard. Hope not either way its still a person who is paralyzed and thats always bad news.
jemcee
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12/8/2018 8:35pm Edited Date/Time 12/8/2018 8:38pm
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as: 1. Motorcycle engine size 2. Soil/track surface...
I’m not sold in either direction. There are far too many variables here not taken into account such as:
1. Motorcycle engine size
2. Soil/track surface
3. Rider skill classification

I ride a 125, majority on sand (both by choice), and am a pro rider. I do not wear a neck brace. I do not like neck braces. I advocate them for riders of lesser skill (of whom are more likely to crash more often).

These statistics are very compelling. I will not be going to the dealer and buying a new brace, however.
jemcee wrote:
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward I was riding a 125 Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into...
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward
I was riding a 125
Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into it in any way Ernesto Fonseca? Jimmy Button?
I was definitely a decent rider who hardly crashed (in fact there's some who argue that people don't know how to crash properly, so less crashing = less practice)
drt410 wrote:
Oh no, are you talking about Robby Marshall from New England? Is he paralyzed? I used to race the 85cc class in nema when him and...
Oh no, are you talking about Robby Marshall from New England? Is he paralyzed? I used to race the 85cc class in nema when him and some other fast kids were younger. If true thats terrible and I had not heard. Hope not either way its still a person who is paralyzed and thats always bad news.
Fuck sorry I might've gotten the names mixed up.. Is it Jason Marshall? It was at a SX over there.. I'll edit his name out

Edit: He's a member here..
Phillip_Lamb
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12/8/2018 10:09pm
kb228 wrote:
Lets translate that to another comparison. Why are skilled supersport riders fulled geared in leathers and helmets while harley/cruiser riders wear work boots? Arent the lesser...
Lets translate that to another comparison.

Why are skilled supersport riders fulled geared in leathers and helmets while harley/cruiser riders wear work boots? Arent the lesser skilled riders(cruiser dudes) more likely to crash?

Why is someone who jumps 100ft jumps at 45mph be less of a concern for neck injuries than new riders going 20mph and jumping 20ft jumps or having tipovers in corners?

I dont think bike size, skill or dirt coditions matter. All it takes is the wrong angle to do it. Whether youre going 15mph or 40mph. Does not matter.

Everyone here is their own man. Nobody is trying to be someones mommy. Just understand the risks and stop trying to justify a stupid decision to not wear gear.
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries? Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape...
Are you lobbying that crashing on sand and crashing on Missouri hardpack would yield the same injuries?

Jemcee: it’s far easier to get out of shape quickly on a 450 than it is a 125.
I would say that crashing on different dirt will certainly affect the injuries. I ride in Norcal and we have a few tracks on sand and also Hangtown. I knew many more guys who broke something including myself at hangtown (hard dirt) where as crashing at the sand track in a high speed swap i had at worse a concussion.

All said, this is a well done study will a lot of data and is hard to argue against. It's clear that wearing it does help prevent serious neck injuries, and i would argue that in the last decade the design has gotten better at not causing injuries ( a lot of collarbone injuries popped up)

I feel there is merit in wearing the level of gear that you feel most comfortable in though. If a piece of gear is too limiting then it could potentially lead to a crash by not allowing proper movement and control. The best crash is the one you dont have.

also something to consider, how many of these people injured were doing stretching and warmups? I know for many doing yoga before they went out into varying physical activities involved hitting the ground noted recovering and soreness was greatly reduced
CM_84
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12/9/2018 3:20am Edited Date/Time 12/9/2018 5:06am
This thread makes my head hurt.
According to some people here, there is only one way to get useable information about the effect of neckbraces in accidents.
So in order to appease these people I propose we get about 100,000 volunteers of different sizes, weights, skill levels, bike sizes, and preference of breakfast cereals to lawn dart them selves into various dirt types and terrains at different angles and speeds and see how many people break their necks.

Or we could just look at data from a long running study of injury reports.....oh hang on.

The choice to wear a neck brace is your’s, everyone has different priorities regarding safety, comfort, performance, and aesthetics. but don’t over complicate it. This isn’t a perfect study, but it’s a good indicator of real world data. Take it into consideration and make a decision.


6
ando
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12/9/2018 6:02am
It seems like on face value that there is some good raw data to work with. As a report, it falls down in a number of areas.

1. It should state clearly what the purpose of the study was e.g. “Evaluate the effect on cervical injury of motocross neck braces”

2. It should also state what was included AND excluded from the study e.g. “No attempt was made to record data or evaluate rider capability, track conditions etc”

3. It’s lacking any proper statistical methods. For example, there are tests to indicate whether a sample size is sufficient to apply the results to a whole population. Based on the sample size, there are other statistical tests that give you a confidence interval for a specific statistic e.g. x is 20% more likely than y with a 95% confidence level. I would expect that the data on cervical injuries to have a reasonably good confidence level, and the data on fatalities to have a very low confidence interval.

4. As already pointed out, there are basic errors in the simple statistics shown in the graphs.

Having said all that, it seems like there is enough evidence from what’s shown to indicate that there is a trend, which perhaps is worthy of further investigation.

4
12/9/2018 6:13am
ando wrote:
It seems like on face value that there is some good raw data to work with. As a report, it falls down in a number of...
It seems like on face value that there is some good raw data to work with. As a report, it falls down in a number of areas.

1. It should state clearly what the purpose of the study was e.g. “Evaluate the effect on cervical injury of motocross neck braces”

2. It should also state what was included AND excluded from the study e.g. “No attempt was made to record data or evaluate rider capability, track conditions etc”

3. It’s lacking any proper statistical methods. For example, there are tests to indicate whether a sample size is sufficient to apply the results to a whole population. Based on the sample size, there are other statistical tests that give you a confidence interval for a specific statistic e.g. x is 20% more likely than y with a 95% confidence level. I would expect that the data on cervical injuries to have a reasonably good confidence level, and the data on fatalities to have a very low confidence interval.

4. As already pointed out, there are basic errors in the simple statistics shown in the graphs.

Having said all that, it seems like there is enough evidence from what’s shown to indicate that there is a trend, which perhaps is worthy of further investigation.

I want to say this with the preposition of this is NOT a negative comment.

EMT’s and the group that owns the firm these stats were released from are not scientists. I can imagine like 3-4 people contributing to this study as well as they could, and all of them work for the same company. They probably banged out these stats on a Friday. They did the best job they could, and I applaud them for their commitment to safety.

They did their due diligence and did it with the best of intention with remarkable results.
3
2
12/9/2018 6:13am
jemcee wrote:
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward I was riding a 125 Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into...
I agree on the variables but not on the variables you put forward
I was riding a 125
Rider skill is bullshit and doesn't come into it in any way Ernesto Fonseca? Jimmy Button?
I was definitely a decent rider who hardly crashed (in fact there's some who argue that people don't know how to crash properly, so less crashing = less practice)
drt410 wrote:
Oh no, are you talking about Robby Marshall from New England? Is he paralyzed? I used to race the 85cc class in nema when him and...
Oh no, are you talking about Robby Marshall from New England? Is he paralyzed? I used to race the 85cc class in nema when him and some other fast kids were younger. If true thats terrible and I had not heard. Hope not either way its still a person who is paralyzed and thats always bad news.
jemcee wrote:
Fuck sorry I might've gotten the names mixed up.. Is it Jason Marshall? It was at a SX over there.. I'll edit his name out Edit...
Fuck sorry I might've gotten the names mixed up.. Is it Jason Marshall? It was at a SX over there.. I'll edit his name out

Edit: He's a member here..
James Marshall from Texas
ando
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12/9/2018 6:16am
RCMXracing wrote:
To the OP, thanks for sharing, someone cared enough to collect information and clearly concerned about rider safety. Unfortunately it is information, not data, and certainly...
To the OP, thanks for sharing, someone cared enough to collect information and clearly concerned about rider safety. Unfortunately it is information, not data, and certainly not scientific and definitely not scientifically significant. There are no controls, and endless variables that are unaccounted for.
The report is anecdotal at best.
Well, it is data. You may quibble about the quality of it, but it’s still data.

If by scientific you mean a formal scientific approach i.e. propose a hypothesis, formulate a method to test it, and draw conclusions, then no it’s not, nor does it attempt to be.

It’s a statistical study of data. It has flaws, as I noted above, but if you ignore the basic maths errors, there is certainly something worthy of further investigation. Seems like something that a science or engineering undergraduate could pick up and run with. Complete the statistical study properly, then start investigating some of the variables.
2
ando
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12/9/2018 6:21am
I want to say this with the preposition of this is NOT a negative comment. EMT’s and the group that owns the firm these stats were...
I want to say this with the preposition of this is NOT a negative comment.

EMT’s and the group that owns the firm these stats were released from are not scientists. I can imagine like 3-4 people contributing to this study as well as they could, and all of them work for the same company. They probably banged out these stats on a Friday. They did the best job they could, and I applaud them for their commitment to safety.

They did their due diligence and did it with the best of intention with remarkable results.
Not negative at all. I agree, it’s a good set of data.

It’s ripe for someone with the right skills to delve into further, use some recognised analytical methods, and publish a quality report.
1
JM485
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12/9/2018 8:34am
ando wrote:
It seems like on face value that there is some good raw data to work with. As a report, it falls down in a number of...
It seems like on face value that there is some good raw data to work with. As a report, it falls down in a number of areas.

1. It should state clearly what the purpose of the study was e.g. “Evaluate the effect on cervical injury of motocross neck braces”

2. It should also state what was included AND excluded from the study e.g. “No attempt was made to record data or evaluate rider capability, track conditions etc”

3. It’s lacking any proper statistical methods. For example, there are tests to indicate whether a sample size is sufficient to apply the results to a whole population. Based on the sample size, there are other statistical tests that give you a confidence interval for a specific statistic e.g. x is 20% more likely than y with a 95% confidence level. I would expect that the data on cervical injuries to have a reasonably good confidence level, and the data on fatalities to have a very low confidence interval.

4. As already pointed out, there are basic errors in the simple statistics shown in the graphs.

Having said all that, it seems like there is enough evidence from what’s shown to indicate that there is a trend, which perhaps is worthy of further investigation.

This is exactly it, if you ignore most of the statistical issues and focus only on the raw data it still,paints a pretty clear picture. The last graph and the explanation of the data within it are the only thing I really feel is relevant from the report, and the sample size is large enough that all of the variables people keep bringing up are pretty well accounted for just due to volume.

Like you said it's not a scientific paper nor was it presented that way, it's not even remotely structured like a scientific paper so I don't know why everyone is comparing it to one. The bottom line is this is the best we have to make an informed decision, a neck brace company could publish a full fledged, peer reviewed paper and the same guys would tear them a new one for conflict of interest and dismiss any findings anyways. This was clearly a biased report and it's written to convey that, but the data they've collected is valid even if the stats are garbage.
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1
DAA-307
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GB
12/9/2018 8:51am
Hi, I have viewed topics on Vitalmx for some time but never posted.
On this subject though I feel I can add something worthwhile.

I am a 52 year old rider, I have been riding dirt bikes (of one form or another since I was at school). I didn't start racing till my mid 20s. Since then I have been at a race meeting most weekends (march through October). I have always believed in the benefits of protective equipment and safety in our sport. I have owned and worn a leatt neck brace since they were first introduced into the UK. Fast forward.

On the 8 July this year I was at just another race meeting! A track I had never rode before so when I went out for practice I took it easy. After a couple of laps I wanted to have a look at a certain downhill, which was followed by an uphill. I rolled the jump and was going down the hill at walking pace, checking lines. Three quarters of the way down, I looked in front of me, to check my line to get up the hill. Nothing out of the ordinary. I opened my throttle and looked up. I then felt a massive impact on my chest, then silence. I then landed on my back. I knew immediately that this was a big one it felt like my legs were wrapped around my shoulders but I could not move them.
Within seconds the feeling came back and very soon I was being treated by medical staff. However, very soon I had the wierdest sensation flow down my body and poralisis of my left side followed by my right side.

Once I got to hospital I was informed of my injuries, I was also informed they were going to preform emergency spinal surgery on me. I had broken 4 ribs my sternum, I had a heamotoma, my neck was broken and my back had multiple breaks.

Five hours of surgery to rebuild my spine with titanium, and off to intensive care. Somehow 4 days latter I got the feeling back in my legs, even the surgeon could not believe I had feeling back in my legs. Eleven days latter I walked out of the hospital (with crutches). Just over 3 months latter I returned to work as a heating engineer.

So why am I now posting this, every medical expert I saw, asked me what protective kit I was wearing. They all said the same thing, had I not been wearing full body armour, a neck brace and a decent helmet I would probably not be here today. I certainly would have been paralised for life.

My accident was a freak accident, no idea what caused it, the only clue was the Marshall said I had done a handstand holding on to my handlebars (possibly hit a kicker), but I know where my opinion lies with neck braces.

You get a long time to lie and think with this type of injury, mine was always thank God I was wearing a neck brace and body armour. Thank God I did not lie there thinking, I wish I HAD worn them.
3
RCMXracing
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12/9/2018 10:19am
DAA-307 wrote:
Hi, I have viewed topics on Vitalmx for some time but never posted. On this subject though I feel I can add something worthwhile. I am...
Hi, I have viewed topics on Vitalmx for some time but never posted.
On this subject though I feel I can add something worthwhile.

I am a 52 year old rider, I have been riding dirt bikes (of one form or another since I was at school). I didn't start racing till my mid 20s. Since then I have been at a race meeting most weekends (march through October). I have always believed in the benefits of protective equipment and safety in our sport. I have owned and worn a leatt neck brace since they were first introduced into the UK. Fast forward.

On the 8 July this year I was at just another race meeting! A track I had never rode before so when I went out for practice I took it easy. After a couple of laps I wanted to have a look at a certain downhill, which was followed by an uphill. I rolled the jump and was going down the hill at walking pace, checking lines. Three quarters of the way down, I looked in front of me, to check my line to get up the hill. Nothing out of the ordinary. I opened my throttle and looked up. I then felt a massive impact on my chest, then silence. I then landed on my back. I knew immediately that this was a big one it felt like my legs were wrapped around my shoulders but I could not move them.
Within seconds the feeling came back and very soon I was being treated by medical staff. However, very soon I had the wierdest sensation flow down my body and poralisis of my left side followed by my right side.

Once I got to hospital I was informed of my injuries, I was also informed they were going to preform emergency spinal surgery on me. I had broken 4 ribs my sternum, I had a heamotoma, my neck was broken and my back had multiple breaks.

Five hours of surgery to rebuild my spine with titanium, and off to intensive care. Somehow 4 days latter I got the feeling back in my legs, even the surgeon could not believe I had feeling back in my legs. Eleven days latter I walked out of the hospital (with crutches). Just over 3 months latter I returned to work as a heating engineer.

So why am I now posting this, every medical expert I saw, asked me what protective kit I was wearing. They all said the same thing, had I not been wearing full body armour, a neck brace and a decent helmet I would probably not be here today. I certainly would have been paralised for life.

My accident was a freak accident, no idea what caused it, the only clue was the Marshall said I had done a handstand holding on to my handlebars (possibly hit a kicker), but I know where my opinion lies with neck braces.

You get a long time to lie and think with this type of injury, mine was always thank God I was wearing a neck brace and body armour. Thank God I did not lie there thinking, I wish I HAD worn them.
Those are some gnarly injuries and happy to hear you came out of it. Now what if I told you it’s likely you would have walked away with zero breaks in your spine (neck, and thoracic), and your sternum had you NOT been wearing a neck brace? Go ahead and thumbs down all you want people I have my own experience.

The force has to go somewhere, you cannot tuck and roll forward, left, right with a RIGID brace on your neck. I can tell you my own personal experience with a brace which included a massive concussion and breaks (compression fractures) in T-5, 6, 7. I lost 12mm in total. I’m reminded of this injury every day. This was a relatively low speed case and over the bars situation where I would normally ring my bell and knock the wind out. My spine surgeon looked at this piece of “protective gear” and was aghast.

What A-stars is doing with airbag systems, which are not rigid, seems like a proper step.
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3
Magic Man
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12/9/2018 11:06am
With this "neck brace" talk, I have to ask, how many guys have had cervical fusion or did replacement and are still riding today? Short story, I broke my neck on a mountain bike in July, spent 15 weeks in a cervical collar. After a few weeks of pt I started getting pins and needles, pricks and wet ski. Sensations all over my body. Had an MRI done and it revealed sever stenosis at C5/6 and this injury must have exabirated it after not moving my cervical for so long and the muscle atrophy. It looks like a surgery of some sort is in the near future to correct it.
ando
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12/9/2018 12:51pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Those are some gnarly injuries and happy to hear you came out of it. Now what if I told you it’s likely you would have walked...
Those are some gnarly injuries and happy to hear you came out of it. Now what if I told you it’s likely you would have walked away with zero breaks in your spine (neck, and thoracic), and your sternum had you NOT been wearing a neck brace? Go ahead and thumbs down all you want people I have my own experience.

The force has to go somewhere, you cannot tuck and roll forward, left, right with a RIGID brace on your neck. I can tell you my own personal experience with a brace which included a massive concussion and breaks (compression fractures) in T-5, 6, 7. I lost 12mm in total. I’m reminded of this injury every day. This was a relatively low speed case and over the bars situation where I would normally ring my bell and knock the wind out. My spine surgeon looked at this piece of “protective gear” and was aghast.

What A-stars is doing with airbag systems, which are not rigid, seems like a proper step.
First up, I want to say that those types of injuries scare the hell out of me, and I wouldn’t wish them on anyone, so I hope you can recover eventually.

Earlier you made some criticisms that this report isn’t scientific. Well, it’s equally unscientific to take one data point, like yours, and say that anything is “likely”. Clearly neck braces aren’t perfect, as the data in the study and your own experience shows. The raw data in the study certainly shows a strong trend that indicates something is changing the results.

It is true to say that the force has go somewhere. If you look at modern passenger cars, their protection systems include a lot of energy absorption features but they also include a massively strong cell in which the passengers sit. There are places for both types of protection.

Finally, FWIW, I’ve heard people talk about “tuck and roll” but I’m extremely sceptical. In al my years of riding and facing dirt bikes, and watching other displines such as MotoGP and Dakar, I’ve yet to see anyone execute a tuck and roll when they crash. I suppose it’s possible to train yourself to do it, but it certainly doesn’t seem like a manoeuvre that comes naturally.
2
JM485
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12/9/2018 1:07pm
ando wrote:
First up, I want to say that those types of injuries scare the hell out of me, and I wouldn’t wish them on anyone, so I...
First up, I want to say that those types of injuries scare the hell out of me, and I wouldn’t wish them on anyone, so I hope you can recover eventually.

Earlier you made some criticisms that this report isn’t scientific. Well, it’s equally unscientific to take one data point, like yours, and say that anything is “likely”. Clearly neck braces aren’t perfect, as the data in the study and your own experience shows. The raw data in the study certainly shows a strong trend that indicates something is changing the results.

It is true to say that the force has go somewhere. If you look at modern passenger cars, their protection systems include a lot of energy absorption features but they also include a massively strong cell in which the passengers sit. There are places for both types of protection.

Finally, FWIW, I’ve heard people talk about “tuck and roll” but I’m extremely sceptical. In al my years of riding and facing dirt bikes, and watching other displines such as MotoGP and Dakar, I’ve yet to see anyone execute a tuck and roll when they crash. I suppose it’s possible to train yourself to do it, but it certainly doesn’t seem like a manoeuvre that comes naturally.
While I don’t at all agree that a neck brace doesn’t allow you to tuck and roll (mine doesn’t inhibit my movements at all since my neck is somewhat long), tucking and rolling is absolutely a real maneuver that is done all the time. When you crash enough on bmx bikes, scooters, skateboards, dirt bikes, etc as a kid you learn how to take crashes and avoid just splatting yourself into the ground. Obviously there are going to be times when things happen too quickly or you’re in a strange position to where it’s not possible, but without a doubt that is always my first instinct in a crash. You’ve been dead on in other aspects of this thread but that particular notion is entirely incorrect.
jemcee
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AU
12/9/2018 3:13pm
JM485 wrote:
While I don’t at all agree that a neck brace doesn’t allow you to tuck and roll (mine doesn’t inhibit my movements at all since my...
While I don’t at all agree that a neck brace doesn’t allow you to tuck and roll (mine doesn’t inhibit my movements at all since my neck is somewhat long), tucking and rolling is absolutely a real maneuver that is done all the time. When you crash enough on bmx bikes, scooters, skateboards, dirt bikes, etc as a kid you learn how to take crashes and avoid just splatting yourself into the ground. Obviously there are going to be times when things happen too quickly or you’re in a strange position to where it’s not possible, but without a doubt that is always my first instinct in a crash. You’ve been dead on in other aspects of this thread but that particular notion is entirely incorrect.
Sorry but the tuck and roll technique does not come into it unless your crash is a slow looping crash in which you've got time to decide or execute the technique, but most times you don't! In fact if you don't have time the 'tucking' puts your head in the worst possible position to avoid a neck injury!
I might be sensitive to this cause it's insulting as it implies I did something wrong or could've avoided my injury if I could've somehow pulled off this fantastic gymnastic move and army roll in the .001 of a second from when I went over the bars to lawn darting..
It's just unrealistic
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jemcee
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12/9/2018 3:19pm
James Marshall from Texas
Aaah that's right thankyou..
So many Marshall's race MX! Obviously there's James, we've got Robby and a Jason and it seems you've got a Robby over there as well haha
Indy mxer
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12/9/2018 4:04pm
JM485 wrote:
While I don’t at all agree that a neck brace doesn’t allow you to tuck and roll (mine doesn’t inhibit my movements at all since my...
While I don’t at all agree that a neck brace doesn’t allow you to tuck and roll (mine doesn’t inhibit my movements at all since my neck is somewhat long), tucking and rolling is absolutely a real maneuver that is done all the time. When you crash enough on bmx bikes, scooters, skateboards, dirt bikes, etc as a kid you learn how to take crashes and avoid just splatting yourself into the ground. Obviously there are going to be times when things happen too quickly or you’re in a strange position to where it’s not possible, but without a doubt that is always my first instinct in a crash. You’ve been dead on in other aspects of this thread but that particular notion is entirely incorrect.
jemcee wrote:
Sorry but the tuck and roll technique does not come into it unless your crash is a slow looping crash in which you've got time to...
Sorry but the tuck and roll technique does not come into it unless your crash is a slow looping crash in which you've got time to decide or execute the technique, but most times you don't! In fact if you don't have time the 'tucking' puts your head in the worst possible position to avoid a neck injury!
I might be sensitive to this cause it's insulting as it implies I did something wrong or could've avoided my injury if I could've somehow pulled off this fantastic gymnastic move and army roll in the .001 of a second from when I went over the bars to lawn darting..
It's just unrealistic
Well said.
Unfortunately I've had plenty of get off's over the years, and I can't remember one where I had the time to tuck and roll.
I've also never seen anyone else do it.
It's just another lame argument.
RCMXracing
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12/9/2018 4:46pm
Tuck and roll, shoulder roll, doing what you naturally do in a fall. Absolutely you can’t control this all the time. But your body naturally does this. The best way to watch this is road racers crashing. You could be unconscious and your head will tilt towards one shoulder and then you will roll, or flip depending on speed, maybe more rolling and flipping. The body isn’t restricted in it's natural motion.

Ponder this: Road racers don’t wear neck protection.

The idea of a neck brace came from the HANS device for auto racing. You are strapped in, have a seat with sides to prevent head movement, and a HANS to further restrict head movement. Motorcycle crashes aren’t auto crashes.

@ando you are 100% correct that my one data point isn’t scientific and it proves nothing. This report by Action Sports leaves so much out that it is unworthy of any conclusions whatsoever. It’s incredibly biased. My concern is that riders grab the headline and don’t use critical thinking to weigh out the pros and cons. A report like this is dangerously misleading. People act on emotion. These devices aren’t fully tested and thought out. They are experimental. It’s totally fine to do things that are experimental just know what you are dealing with.

So they have 8,529 incidents. How many patients that wore a neck brace sustained a traumatic brain injury vs. those that didn’t? What were the speeds involved? Land on flat ground or on an angle? How many sustained injuries to the spine other than the cervical spine with and without a brace? What were the extent of these cervical injuries? Were there fractures? Was it a “sore neck” that they immobilized? Where are the details?

To call this a “study” is preposterous. WE NEED a REAL scientific study. Define the dependent variables: Impact force on head, cervical, and lumbar spine, others, etc. Independent variables: amount of force, angle of force, child or adult, etc. This has to be done with anthropomorphic test devices (crash dummies).

I am not 100% against neck braces, I have my own biases based on experience and logic. Truly I believe they aren’t well thought out. I also believe that in certain situations they can save your cervical spine from a fracture, but also believe they can in other cases do traumatic harm to the head and spine. Until there are multiple independent studies they should come with a warning label.

It’s too bad we can’t all sit in a room and discuss this. I’m not trying to win an argument. I just can’t stand junk science that bias people towards making a decision that could be catastrophic one way or another.
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JM485
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12/9/2018 5:49pm
jemcee wrote:
Sorry but the tuck and roll technique does not come into it unless your crash is a slow looping crash in which you've got time to...
Sorry but the tuck and roll technique does not come into it unless your crash is a slow looping crash in which you've got time to decide or execute the technique, but most times you don't! In fact if you don't have time the 'tucking' puts your head in the worst possible position to avoid a neck injury!
I might be sensitive to this cause it's insulting as it implies I did something wrong or could've avoided my injury if I could've somehow pulled off this fantastic gymnastic move and army roll in the .001 of a second from when I went over the bars to lawn darting..
It's just unrealistic
Brother I'm not at all implying you or anyone else with an injury like yours did anything wrong, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. What my point was is that there are definitely instances where tucking and rolling can be done and will help the outcome of a crash. Obviously it isn't always possible, and I'm not at all implying that when people get hurt they did anything wrong, that would be totally out of line and insensitive and I hope I'm not coming across that way.

All I'm saying is that it is absolutely possible in some crashes to mimize the damage by tucking or rolling out of it rather than just taking a blunt hit to the ground. I know for a fact I've instinctually done it many times, but I've also had crashes where I had no time to react or do anything to lessen the impact, it's entirely dependent on the situation. Take a look at how BMX guys crash, they always try to roll out of crashes and minimize impact. For what it's worth, I always wear a neck brace because I know that there are always situations out of our control, and sometimes there's just nothing you can do. The crashes that happen too fast to react scare the hell out of me, and I want to give myself the best chance under those circumstances. I'm sorry if I came off like a dick with my first comment, that was not at all my intent man and I know this is a very sensitive topic.
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jemcee
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12/9/2018 6:19pm
JM485 wrote:
Brother I'm not at all implying you or anyone else with an injury like yours did anything wrong, and I'm really sorry if it came off...
Brother I'm not at all implying you or anyone else with an injury like yours did anything wrong, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. What my point was is that there are definitely instances where tucking and rolling can be done and will help the outcome of a crash. Obviously it isn't always possible, and I'm not at all implying that when people get hurt they did anything wrong, that would be totally out of line and insensitive and I hope I'm not coming across that way.

All I'm saying is that it is absolutely possible in some crashes to mimize the damage by tucking or rolling out of it rather than just taking a blunt hit to the ground. I know for a fact I've instinctually done it many times, but I've also had crashes where I had no time to react or do anything to lessen the impact, it's entirely dependent on the situation. Take a look at how BMX guys crash, they always try to roll out of crashes and minimize impact. For what it's worth, I always wear a neck brace because I know that there are always situations out of our control, and sometimes there's just nothing you can do. The crashes that happen too fast to react scare the hell out of me, and I want to give myself the best chance under those circumstances. I'm sorry if I came off like a dick with my first comment, that was not at all my intent man and I know this is a very sensitive topic.
Nah you're right man I should've mentioned I understand that it's not meant as an insult haha
Kinda like when you say something to ya missus and she takes offense in a way that you didn't foresee cause you couldn't see it from her point of view until she's making you very aware of it haha..
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Indy mxer
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12/10/2018 4:28am Edited Date/Time 12/10/2018 4:31am
RCMXracing wrote:
Tuck and roll, shoulder roll, doing what you naturally do in a fall. Absolutely you can’t control this all the time. But your body naturally does...
Tuck and roll, shoulder roll, doing what you naturally do in a fall. Absolutely you can’t control this all the time. But your body naturally does this. The best way to watch this is road racers crashing. You could be unconscious and your head will tilt towards one shoulder and then you will roll, or flip depending on speed, maybe more rolling and flipping. The body isn’t restricted in it's natural motion.

Ponder this: Road racers don’t wear neck protection.

The idea of a neck brace came from the HANS device for auto racing. You are strapped in, have a seat with sides to prevent head movement, and a HANS to further restrict head movement. Motorcycle crashes aren’t auto crashes.

@ando you are 100% correct that my one data point isn’t scientific and it proves nothing. This report by Action Sports leaves so much out that it is unworthy of any conclusions whatsoever. It’s incredibly biased. My concern is that riders grab the headline and don’t use critical thinking to weigh out the pros and cons. A report like this is dangerously misleading. People act on emotion. These devices aren’t fully tested and thought out. They are experimental. It’s totally fine to do things that are experimental just know what you are dealing with.

So they have 8,529 incidents. How many patients that wore a neck brace sustained a traumatic brain injury vs. those that didn’t? What were the speeds involved? Land on flat ground or on an angle? How many sustained injuries to the spine other than the cervical spine with and without a brace? What were the extent of these cervical injuries? Were there fractures? Was it a “sore neck” that they immobilized? Where are the details?

To call this a “study” is preposterous. WE NEED a REAL scientific study. Define the dependent variables: Impact force on head, cervical, and lumbar spine, others, etc. Independent variables: amount of force, angle of force, child or adult, etc. This has to be done with anthropomorphic test devices (crash dummies).

I am not 100% against neck braces, I have my own biases based on experience and logic. Truly I believe they aren’t well thought out. I also believe that in certain situations they can save your cervical spine from a fracture, but also believe they can in other cases do traumatic harm to the head and spine. Until there are multiple independent studies they should come with a warning label.

It’s too bad we can’t all sit in a room and discuss this. I’m not trying to win an argument. I just can’t stand junk science that bias people towards making a decision that could be catastrophic one way or another.
To call it a junk study is laughable. Is it scientific? no. But it's good data. And it's more than we've ever had.

I haven't seen anyone on here that thinks they work 100% of the time. Way too many variables.
But I think what the proponents of neck braces are saying is you're better off than without one. And these numbers seem to support that. I feel the report is pretty well done.

My favorite track uses Action EMS at all their races. These guys are top notch. The best I've ever seen at an Amateur event. They're pro's for sure.

No it's not the be all end all, but to call it junk because you don't like the numbers is off base.

And the reason road racers don't use them is because they can't. The way they have to lean so far forward and the angle of their head makes them impossible to wear. Plus, when they do wreck they slide way more than we do.
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RichieW13
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12/10/2018 9:09am
The next important information would be "what type of brace?" If I was convinced of this data and decided to get a neck brace, would all neck braces have a positive safety correlation?
1
MBR
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12/10/2018 10:14am Edited Date/Time 12/10/2018 10:48pm
I went head first to 5th commanmend at Loretta's this year and pretty sure neck brace saved me from the worst. There were deep marks of my helmet hitting the neck brace. I walked away with neck & head ache, but pretty sure it could have been much worse. An no, when you get ejected like this there isn't chance any kind of tuck and roll. Crash around 0:35 second.
3
Indy mxer
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12/10/2018 6:00pm
MBR wrote:
I went head first to 5th commanmend at Loretta's this year and pretty sure neck brace saved me from the worst. There were deep marks of...
I went head first to 5th commanmend at Loretta's this year and pretty sure neck brace saved me from the worst. There were deep marks of my helmet hitting the neck brace. I walked away with neck & head ache, but pretty sure it could have been much worse. An no, when you get ejected like this there isn't chance any kind of tuck and roll. Crash around 0:35 second.
Glad you're ok!!

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