2 stroke resurgence will the other OEMs follow?

17 hours ago

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

1
12
16 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

Aside from FI, what are you referring to? Just over $9K is a deal with today’s prices IMO

5
16 hours ago
mxaniac wrote:
I love big bore 2Ts, but we have no idea how this bike handles. A lighter 2T engine shoved into a 4T frame might not have...

I love big bore 2Ts, but we have no idea how this bike handles. A lighter 2T engine shoved into a 4T frame might not have the weight bias right, which is what I hated about the first 4T bikes. I applaud Kawasaki for doing this, but until we know what the whole package is like it's hard for me to get too excited.

As for EFI vs carb, a PWK A/S with the STIC kit is incredible for performance but they use a lot of fuel. They seem to be affected less by temperature and elevation too. I'm not saying were violating the laws of physics or rewriting Bernoulli's equation but with how the STIC passes some air to through the emulsion tube it must provide some compensation whether intended or not. A STIC equipped carburetor is impressive.

This frame is different from the 4 stroke frames 

8500rpm
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14 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and under 40+ crowd.

Also, would be interesting to see when released, which sells more per month, the Stark Varg or the Kawi 2-stroke? I know I'm very biased, but somehow I associate 2-stroke buyers with those who have lived and rode during the 90s...

but I was wrong in the 95-page thread so maybe here also Smile

2

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bestmx
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13 hours ago Edited Date/Time 13 hours ago

You’d really think that Yamaha would poach Fantics tech right? 

IMG 8803.png?VersionId=K9tf0Zhq29r71c.F
 

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12 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

8500rpm wrote:
It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and...

It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and under 40+ crowd.

Also, would be interesting to see when released, which sells more per month, the Stark Varg or the Kawi 2-stroke? I know I'm very biased, but somehow I associate 2-stroke buyers with those who have lived and rode during the 90s...

but I was wrong in the 95-page thread so maybe here also Smile

I’m 28, my main bike is a YZ450 but I always have kept a YZ250 and KDX200 in the garage. Wish the younger kids growing up in their teens would learn to appreciate just how fun two strokes can be. It’s a lost art in today’s electric and 4T world. 

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Spoonguy
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10 hours ago
Boomslang wrote:

I have no doubt that the rest will follow.

Great, so now after waiting two years for the Kawasaki, we are waiting on the other makers now? I stand by my earlier statement, we do not need more bikes, we need more public acceptance, riding areas, and enthusiasts.

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ando
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10 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

8500rpm wrote:
It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and...

It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and under 40+ crowd.

Also, would be interesting to see when released, which sells more per month, the Stark Varg or the Kawi 2-stroke? I know I'm very biased, but somehow I associate 2-stroke buyers with those who have lived and rode during the 90s...

but I was wrong in the 95-page thread so maybe here also Smile

Around here by far the most common two strokes are 300's.  If I had to guess the owners are largely in two groups - the younger guys getting into hard enduro, and the older riders.

1
10 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

Aside from FI, what are you referring to? Just over $9K is a deal with today’s prices IMO

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.


I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im in the UK. 

Nevertheless, we all know the type who want the old KX250, CR250, RM250s. 
 

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soggy
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9 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

Ktm has been building and catering to the off-road market for a long time. One new bike release from Kawi won’t dismantle that. 

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GrapeApe
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9 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

Aside from FI, what are you referring to? Just over $9K is a deal with today’s prices IMO

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im...

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.


I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im in the UK. 

Nevertheless, we all know the type who want the old KX250, CR250, RM250s. 
 

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb will be able to figure out FI, and brews will still be involved.

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MoogenKen
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9 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

I’m thinking that was only from 2000-2005.

1
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mxaniac
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9 hours ago
mxaniac wrote:
I love big bore 2Ts, but we have no idea how this bike handles. A lighter 2T engine shoved into a 4T frame might not have...

I love big bore 2Ts, but we have no idea how this bike handles. A lighter 2T engine shoved into a 4T frame might not have the weight bias right, which is what I hated about the first 4T bikes. I applaud Kawasaki for doing this, but until we know what the whole package is like it's hard for me to get too excited.

As for EFI vs carb, a PWK A/S with the STIC kit is incredible for performance but they use a lot of fuel. They seem to be affected less by temperature and elevation too. I'm not saying were violating the laws of physics or rewriting Bernoulli's equation but with how the STIC passes some air to through the emulsion tube it must provide some compensation whether intended or not. A STIC equipped carburetor is impressive.

This frame is different from the 4 stroke frames 

I know the front cradle is different, but is the frame a ground up design for the 2T?

I was never fond of a 4T in the gen 3 Honda frame originally designed for the 2T nor did I like my 2018 TC250 which is essentially the 4T frame. It's more than just the cradle, motor mounts, and pipe hangers.

bodycast
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9 hours ago

Aside from FI, what are you referring to? Just over $9K is a deal with today’s prices IMO

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im...

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.


I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im in the UK. 

Nevertheless, we all know the type who want the old KX250, CR250, RM250s. 
 

GrapeApe wrote:

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb will be able to figure out FI, and brews will still be involved.

Idk what there is to figure out.  You push the button and go ride.

2
mx317
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9 hours ago
sumdood wrote:

What are the chances of the AMA dropping their outdated 2 stroke displacement rule ?  

When Honda, Suzuki, etc starts making more two-strokes and puts pressure on the AMA. That might be the only chance.

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coopernicus
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8 hours ago
Beta480RX wrote:
Yamaha doesn't have a choice. They will have to do something. My guess is a traditional YZ300X based on the current bike with no counter balancer...

Yamaha doesn't have a choice. They will have to do something. My guess is a traditional YZ300X based on the current bike with no counter balancer (sell it as lighter!) and an add on flywheel starter like the Panthera kits or first gen e-start Austrians.

If Honda does anything, and it won't be any two stroke, of any displacement, it would be an updated CRF150R to a 125R so it is legal in regular minibike classes (I think the four stroke limit is still 125?).

Suzy isn't doing jack squat. See the Grammar w/ Falcon thread in non-moto if this confuses you.

soggy wrote:

Pretty sure you can get the Fantic (Yamaha) 300 in the states.  

Beta480RX wrote:
Yes, you can. But that bike has a Fanric/Minarelli engine not a Yamaha. That's why it's sold here and the 125/250 Fantics are not. Fantic 250/125s...

Yes, you can. But that bike has a Fanric/Minarelli engine not a Yamaha. That's why it's sold here and the 125/250 Fantics are not. Fantic 250/125s are no more different from a YZ than a Husky or GG is from a KTM.

No way in you-know-what is Yamaha going to sell a YZ300X with something other than a Yamaha engine in it.

According to Enduro21 in 2024, the Fantic 300 bottom end is Yamaha and not Minarelli. Enduro 21 stated "the 5 speed transmission is Yamaha derived" and the "Yamaha cases were modified" to accept the Fantic updates including (but not limited to) e-start and hydraulic clutch. I assume Fantic "derived" the WR gearing like a lot of people have done to better suit the YZ 250 for off-road riding/racing.

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1
8 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. 

Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.

The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

The KX250-F was rebranded as a RMZ250 (but was kawasaki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

That was basically it for the bigger bikes. 

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38special
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8 hours ago

I just love that Kawasaki after boldly proclaiming "all electric by 2035" shocks the world with a new 2 stroke.  No qualms here.

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1
8 hours ago
38special wrote:

I just love that Kawasaki after boldly proclaiming "all electric by 2035" shocks the world with a new 2 stroke.  No qualms here.

artworks-000326281413-3c89dn-t500x500.jpg?VersionId=fSoN4LhHS55XuyZ jYWV7
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KHNC
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8 hours ago
gregyou wrote:

I will be interesting to see how these sell after the hype has died down a couple of years 

JAFO92 wrote:
Hype?   2 Strokes are WAY more fun to ride and own than the complicated overweight valve-munching tractors.   99.99% of riders own a dirt bike...

Hype?   2 Strokes are WAY more fun to ride and own than the complicated overweight valve-munching tractors.   99.99% of riders own a dirt bike to have FUN.   Are you really gonna change the world with a local-yocal plastic trophy for the garage wall,  or do you wanna meet your homies at the track and have a blast on the weekend?    You get way more smiles per lap on a smoker than any 4stroke ever made.    Carmichael, Fro,  McGrath, Bubba, TP199 they will all tell you nothing beats wringing out a two-smoke.
 

 

I twisted the absolute shit out of the throttle yesterday evening on my 150SX.Buddy bought a 2017 TC125 and i took it for a test ride. I had so much fun that took my 250SX straight back in the garage and grabbed the 150 to turn some laps. I was feeling really dialed in yesterday for some reason. That thing will rail some shit when you leave it pinned!! 

 

No more 4 strokes in my lifetime. Selling my YZ250F and going back to 2T's was the way for me. 

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MoogenKen
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8 hours ago
KHNC wrote:
I twisted the absolute shit out of the throttle yesterday evening on my 150SX.Buddy bought a 2017 TC125 and i took it for a test ride...

I twisted the absolute shit out of the throttle yesterday evening on my 150SX.Buddy bought a 2017 TC125 and i took it for a test ride. I had so much fun that took my 250SX straight back in the garage and grabbed the 150 to turn some laps. I was feeling really dialed in yesterday for some reason. That thing will rail some shit when you leave it pinned!! 

 

No more 4 strokes in my lifetime. Selling my YZ250F and going back to 2T's was the way for me. 

I support this message! 

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1
7 hours ago

Aside from FI, what are you referring to? Just over $9K is a deal with today’s prices IMO

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im...

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.


I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im in the UK. 

Nevertheless, we all know the type who want the old KX250, CR250, RM250s. 
 

GrapeApe wrote:

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb will be able to figure out FI, and brews will still be involved.

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb can also work on a four stroke. But many people won’t do it. 

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Village Idiot
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7 hours ago
FI is exactly what I’m referring to.I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im...

FI is exactly what I’m referring to.


I can’t comment on the bike purchase price because as you know different states charge more and less & im in the UK. 

Nevertheless, we all know the type who want the old KX250, CR250, RM250s. 
 

GrapeApe wrote:

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb will be able to figure out FI, and brews will still be involved.

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb can also work on a four stroke. But many people won’t do it. 

Ability and desire are two different things.

3
bodycast
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7 hours ago Edited Date/Time 7 hours ago
GrapeApe wrote:

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb will be able to figure out FI, and brews will still be involved.

Anyone with the capacity to properly tune a carb can also work on a four stroke. But many people won’t do it. 

Ability and desire are two different things.

I have owned 11 or so bikes at this point from carb 2 strokes, carb 4 strokes to efi 2/4 strokes, all the strokes.  Outside of jetting a carb to my altitude and general maintenance i really have not had to work on any of them.  Thousands of hours on many bikes new and used and with basic maintenance none have let me down.  Im no pro rider but I beat on them pretty hard.  When I say basic you know, seals, bearings and wear items, piston here and there but nothing crazy.

Im thrown off on so many people having to work on these bikes so much.  

 

Edit.  Did have a 18 250xcf that let go of a plastic oil pump gear. But other than that!

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RDnutz
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7 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both...

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. 

Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.

The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

The KX250-F was rebranded as a RMZ250 (but was kawasaki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

That was basically it for the bigger bikes. 

you mentioned the bigger bikes, but I know there was also a 140cc collaboration back around then 2 that was popular.

Spoonguy
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7 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

soggy wrote:

Ktm has been building and catering to the off-road market for a long time. One new bike release from Kawi won’t dismantle that. 

Of course not, KTM's own ineptitude and unethical business practices did, that is why KTM is BAJAJ now except in name.

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TeamGreen
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7 hours ago
Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. When they...

Most of the guys calling for a two stroke resurgence were doing so because they like the simplicity and the economy of a two stroke. 

When they realise that this new breed of two strokes aren’t simple and aren’t cheap and they can’t work on it themselves over a brew, they’re going to be disappointed. 

This isn’t the bike that those two strokes die-hards have been wanting. They wanted a re-run of a 2006 bike. 

8500rpm wrote:
It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and...

It's not a number we will get to know of course, but it would be interesting to know how many 2-strokes are sold to above and under 40+ crowd.

Also, would be interesting to see when released, which sells more per month, the Stark Varg or the Kawi 2-stroke? I know I'm very biased, but somehow I associate 2-stroke buyers with those who have lived and rode during the 90s...

but I was wrong in the 95-page thread so maybe here also Smile

I’m 28, my main bike is a YZ450 but I always have kept a YZ250 and KDX200 in the garage. Wish the younger kids growing up...

I’m 28, my main bike is a YZ450 but I always have kept a YZ250 and KDX200 in the garage. Wish the younger kids growing up in their teens would learn to appreciate just how fun two strokes can be. It’s a lost art in today’s electric and 4T world. 

I often say that the KDX 200 is the single best “Dirt Bike” ever.

I’ve raced Hare Scrambles, Enduros & Qualifiers, Motos and even a coupl’a “Dual Sport” rides on KDXs. 

Over the last coupl’a years while talking about this project with Kawasaki peeps…the KDX, the KX250 & 500…we’re all a big part of the reminiscent conversations. 

6 hours ago
Motodude wrote:

Werent the zooks coming out of the kawi factory? 

Imo, the 327 X will destroy KTM off road sales.

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both...

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. 

Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.

The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

The KX250-F was rebranded as a RMZ250 (but was kawasaki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

That was basically it for the bigger bikes. 

RDnutz wrote:

you mentioned the bigger bikes, but I know there was also a 140cc collaboration back around then 2 that was popular.

They never co-developed any bike. The KLX110 was rebranded as a DR-Z110 for Suzuki (it was still purely a Kawasaki developed motorcycle)

6 hours ago Edited Date/Time 6 hours ago
So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both...

So much misinformation about that partnership from 2003-2005. 

Suzuki co-branded models with Kawasaki and vice versa.

The DRZ400 was rebranded as a KLX400 (but was suzuki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

The KX250-F was rebranded as a RMZ250 (but was kawasaki manufactured). Both bikes were identical apart from plastic color. 

That was basically it for the bigger bikes. 

RDnutz wrote:

you mentioned the bigger bikes, but I know there was also a 140cc collaboration back around then 2 that was popular.

They never co-developed any bike. The KLX110 was rebranded as a DR-Z110 for Suzuki (it was still purely a Kawasaki developed motorcycle)

They most definitely co-developed the '04-05 250F. Suzuki developed the engine, Kawi the chassis -- and the bike was built by Kawi. 

I recall there was some puzzlement from folks at the time about the respective roles, as Kawi was known for making bikes with ripping engines but slow handling, and Suzuki had great handling, but underpowered bikes. It just seemed reversed from what everyone would want in a Kawi/Zook partnership.

5
6 hours ago
RDnutz wrote:

you mentioned the bigger bikes, but I know there was also a 140cc collaboration back around then 2 that was popular.

They never co-developed any bike. The KLX110 was rebranded as a DR-Z110 for Suzuki (it was still purely a Kawasaki developed motorcycle)

They most definitely co-developed the '04-05 250F. Suzuki developed the engine, Kawi the chassis -- and the bike was built by Kawi. I recall there was some...

They most definitely co-developed the '04-05 250F. Suzuki developed the engine, Kawi the chassis -- and the bike was built by Kawi. 

I recall there was some puzzlement from folks at the time about the respective roles, as Kawi was known for making bikes with ripping engines but slow handling, and Suzuki had great handling, but underpowered bikes. It just seemed reversed from what everyone would want in a Kawi/Zook partnership.

I stand corrected! It makes more sense how the KX125/250 from the same era used basically the same frame as the 250F (and why the RM125/250 frames from those years are different)

 

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