Elon vs DJT

mvd61
Posts
1257
Joined
10/15/2021
Location
Brandon, SD, USA
6/6/2025 11:33am
JAFO92 wrote:

Wag the dog.

What are they trying to take our attention away from?

 

Palantir

2
6/6/2025 12:55pm

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

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13
zookrider62!
Posts
6825
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12/22/2008
Location
Plano, TX, USA
6/6/2025 1:04pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

I want to live in your world some day, seems like a magical place

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6
lappedrider
Posts
1555
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Location
Tooele, UT, USA
6/6/2025 1:11pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

I want to believe you are joking.   

3
4

The Shop

BH_84
Posts
370
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Location
Cameron, ON, CA
Fantasy
6/6/2025 1:48pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

So, in your mind, in order to release the Epstein files, which they already have and said they were going to do, then didn't, they had to stage a massive fight that included changes to legislation and accusations of pedophilia. And this is being done to get Democrats, who don't have any power at the moment, to demand the Epstein files be released. The files that they already have and are fully capable of releasing at any time without any Democrat input. 

Am I getting all that?

 

Those saying that if Trump would have been damaged by the release, why wouldn't Dems have done it, I'll flip it. If the files will be so damaging to Democrats, why isn't Trump releasing them?

 

8
2
byke
Posts
3039
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/6/2025 1:50pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

I want to believe you are joking.   

You're saying that making yourself look bad isn't a great way to make someone else look bad??

1
2
truck
Posts
3720
Joined
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Location
Louisville, KY, USA
Fantasy
6/6/2025 2:51pm
truck wrote:

Rand Paul for president. 

LOOnatic wrote:
I'm with you on Rand but now I'm confused with how you're against Doge when Rand has always maintained that our government has a spending problem. To...

I'm with you on Rand but now I'm confused with how you're against Doge when Rand has always maintained that our government has a spending problem.

 

To reduce spending you must cut something and in my lifetime ive only seen the government add spending not reduce it until Doge.

 

If Rand was President tomorrow I'm pretty sure he would do somee cutting to help balance the budget. 

DOGE harmed a handful working class people that were all the sudden the bad guy because of where they worked, put out press releases so their fans could share them on Facebook, and otherwise did nothing. DOGE went after people and all of trump's followers cheered this on. I'm out on that because I'm not an asshole. When Rand puts out his list of wasteful spending he goes after the spending, not people who had nothing to do with creating the mess. 

Until tax rates are automatically based on spending or congress critters are barred from office without something close to a balanced budget in place it's never going to change. 

4
3
sumdood
Posts
8882
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Location
San Clemente, CA, USA
Fantasy
6/6/2025 4:25pm
plowboy wrote:
 This is my new bestie.  He deserves better than this.  We all deserve better than this.Btw...his name is Hunter and he makes my heart feel like...

 This is my new bestie.  He deserves better than this.  We all deserve better than this.

Btw...his name is Hunter and he makes my heart feel like its gonna bust.1000001523 0

APLMAN99 wrote:
I just got one of those perfect little buddies a month ago myself!!!! 

I just got one of those perfect little buddies a month ago myself!!!!

IMG 4321 1
 

We were informed today that grandkid #4 is in the oven, expected to arrive early next year. 🙂

8
akillerwombat
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3211
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Location
Los Angeles, CA, USA
6/6/2025 4:48pm
byke wrote:

You're saying that making yourself look bad isn't a great way to make someone else look bad??

The reality of it is, real fight or fake fight, the optics are beyond terrible for us on the world stage and Elon already got everything he needed via his little code bunnies injecting whatever mystery back doors and data collections across the entirety of our government.

No matter how anyone wants to slice it or analyze it or twist it or justify it… it’s dark times now and setting us up for some truly dark times in the future.

9
7
APLMAN99
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Location
Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
6/6/2025 4:49pm

Trae Crowder puts things into perspective…..

1
4
TeamGreen
Posts
37061
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA, USA
6/6/2025 5:29pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

I want to believe you are joking.   

If this is legit…?

They’re all kookier than anyone imagined 🤣

It’s like a scene form the shitty IronMan movie that Elon was in. 

2
burn1986
Posts
12246
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Location
bossier city, LA, USA
6/6/2025 5:58pm

As far as the Epstein files being released, Whitney Webb (investigative journalist and author) is a depth of knowledge:

6
6/6/2025 7:16pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are...

You guys really think their feud is legit? Wake up. Another chess match against the loony left to get them to burn their buddies who are actually on the Epstein list. If it was true that Trump was on that list, the left wouldn't hesitate to release it and burn all their friends in the process just to crucify Trump. Think about it guys.

BH_84 wrote:
So, in your mind, in order to release the Epstein files, which they already have and said they were going to do, then didn't, they had...

So, in your mind, in order to release the Epstein files, which they already have and said they were going to do, then didn't, they had to stage a massive fight that included changes to legislation and accusations of pedophilia. And this is being done to get Democrats, who don't have any power at the moment, to demand the Epstein files be released. The files that they already have and are fully capable of releasing at any time without any Democrat input. 

Am I getting all that?

 

Those saying that if Trump would have been damaged by the release, why wouldn't Dems have done it, I'll flip it. If the files will be so damaging to Democrats, why isn't Trump releasing them?

 

o0450024715316666596-903570873.gif?VersionId=
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3
SEEMEFIRST
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Location
Arlington, TX, USA
6/6/2025 8:37pm

The stupid left hired a Moran.

I could have made a better shot off-hand.

First off, I wouldn't have used a pea shooter, and I would have planted a .3 into the chest.

You whistle a 30 caliber bullet through the chest of any living being, it will most likely die.

9
cheesehead420
Posts
662
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Location
Manchester, CT, USA
6/7/2025 3:34am
truck wrote:

Rand Paul for president. 

A new or different president won’t and can’t change things in any meaningful way. History proves this. We should stop putting collective faith in a new...

A new or different president won’t and can’t change things in any meaningful way. History proves this. We should stop putting collective faith in a new “leader” that will bring about the change we desire. The system is broken for 99.8% of the population. It will not be reformed. 

byke wrote:

Technically, the population is too broken for the system to function.

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. 

The system though is functioning perfectly for the .1-.2% of the population that it exists for. 

There are psychological and material (toxic chemicals in our food and other everyday items) factors that are deliberately and mindfully incorporated into our lives and designed to keep us “broken” as you say. 

Then again, the system it not so much different than religion. It only has as much power as we the people give it. It derives its power only on our faith and willingness to take part in it. All of it accomplished through conditioning and coercion. This is where these psychological and material factors come into play and are used as tools by the system and its administrators to further its consolidation of power. 

 

1
3
byke
Posts
3039
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Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/7/2025 8:13am Edited Date/Time 6/7/2025 8:14am
A new or different president won’t and can’t change things in any meaningful way. History proves this. We should stop putting collective faith in a new...

A new or different president won’t and can’t change things in any meaningful way. History proves this. We should stop putting collective faith in a new “leader” that will bring about the change we desire. The system is broken for 99.8% of the population. It will not be reformed. 

byke wrote:

Technically, the population is too broken for the system to function.

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. The system though...

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. 

The system though is functioning perfectly for the .1-.2% of the population that it exists for. 

There are psychological and material (toxic chemicals in our food and other everyday items) factors that are deliberately and mindfully incorporated into our lives and designed to keep us “broken” as you say. 

Then again, the system it not so much different than religion. It only has as much power as we the people give it. It derives its power only on our faith and willingness to take part in it. All of it accomplished through conditioning and coercion. This is where these psychological and material factors come into play and are used as tools by the system and its administrators to further its consolidation of power. 

 

Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems with the people we choose. I think blaming systems is another method of self-preservation made up to avoid responsibility, because the one constant is that we always try our hardest to maintain the thought that we're awesome and someone else is terrible. I will straight up tell you that our major problems today, I contribute to in some way. It's just kind of not possible for it to be otherwise and those problems will never be addressed unless we peel back that ego.

And I don't agree about religion only existing through conditioning and coercion as a pejorative. You can maintain something good with a simple maintenance program. For example, civics is the maintenance program for core US culture. It needs to be mandated to be effective, but it's a positive mechanism that exists. Likewise, religion can also have a positive mechanism for supporting itself, and in practice it often does by helping people in the community. Sure, most often other church members, but that's also mostly a matter of who's in their social sphere, same as how we're not helping some poor old lady on the sewing forum. 

Not to imply that there are no systemic benefits for our oligarchy that were put in place by our oligarchy, because there are, but there's much more going on than that and we're all responsible for it, imo anyway. 

3
2
borg
Posts
6777
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
6/7/2025 5:35pm
byke wrote:

Technically, the population is too broken for the system to function.

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. The system though...

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. 

The system though is functioning perfectly for the .1-.2% of the population that it exists for. 

There are psychological and material (toxic chemicals in our food and other everyday items) factors that are deliberately and mindfully incorporated into our lives and designed to keep us “broken” as you say. 

Then again, the system it not so much different than religion. It only has as much power as we the people give it. It derives its power only on our faith and willingness to take part in it. All of it accomplished through conditioning and coercion. This is where these psychological and material factors come into play and are used as tools by the system and its administrators to further its consolidation of power. 

 

byke wrote:
Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems...

Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems with the people we choose. I think blaming systems is another method of self-preservation made up to avoid responsibility, because the one constant is that we always try our hardest to maintain the thought that we're awesome and someone else is terrible. I will straight up tell you that our major problems today, I contribute to in some way. It's just kind of not possible for it to be otherwise and those problems will never be addressed unless we peel back that ego.

And I don't agree about religion only existing through conditioning and coercion as a pejorative. You can maintain something good with a simple maintenance program. For example, civics is the maintenance program for core US culture. It needs to be mandated to be effective, but it's a positive mechanism that exists. Likewise, religion can also have a positive mechanism for supporting itself, and in practice it often does by helping people in the community. Sure, most often other church members, but that's also mostly a matter of who's in their social sphere, same as how we're not helping some poor old lady on the sewing forum. 

Not to imply that there are no systemic benefits for our oligarchy that were put in place by our oligarchy, because there are, but there's much more going on than that and we're all responsible for it, imo anyway. 

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

9
Shawn142
Posts
2602
Joined
10/27/2008
Location
Burleson, TX, USA
6/8/2025 12:04am
JAFO92 wrote:

Wag the dog.

What are they trying to take our attention away from?

 

mvd61 wrote:

Palantir

Of all the ridiculous shit to come out the last few days this is the most concerning to me.  A single company compiling all your private data from every government agency together into a single database.  I'm sure that will include all your social media activity too since they just partnered with Meta.  True big brother stuff.  

1
6/8/2025 2:01am
JAFO92 wrote:

Wag the dog.

What are they trying to take our attention away from?

 

mvd61 wrote:

Palantir

Shawn142 wrote:
Of all the ridiculous shit to come out the last few days this is the most concerning to me.  A single company compiling all your private...

Of all the ridiculous shit to come out the last few days this is the most concerning to me.  A single company compiling all your private data from every government agency together into a single database.  I'm sure that will include all your social media activity too since they just partnered with Meta.  True big brother stuff.  

look over there
1
cheesehead420
Posts
662
Joined
11/3/2020
Location
Manchester, CT, USA
6/8/2025 4:03am
borg wrote:
Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The...

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

Nice post 👍 

How about what Lincoln did? From my understanding that was when the federal government really gained serious power. Would that instance be another cornerstone of the federal government gaining power? On the surface it was about slavery but ultimately it was about States rights. Imo the federal government should be almost non existent. I much prefer the idea of a confederation of states. 

7
JustMX
Posts
5263
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4/1/2008
Location
USA
6/8/2025 6:18am
borg wrote:
Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The...

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

arguable......

it did set a precedent for "the great society". which was the start of things really turning to shit.

It is a shell game.

Clinton claimed to remove people from welfare, when it was just a game of moving those people to disability for everything. Sleep apnea, anxiety, obesity-related ailments, and so much more bs all got people set up with no work requirements.

Everything has become "this measure will save/cost $600 billion over 10 years". it starts and then gets cut or doubled by the next administration.

Republicans blast Pelosi for saying "you have to pass the bill to see what is in it", and then do the exact same thing with "the big beautiful budget".

It has all become theater. There is no better example than this shit with trump and musk.

3
byke
Posts
3039
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/8/2025 3:48pm
You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. The system though...

You’re not wrong to an extent. I would maybe say the population is too broken to fix the problem. Maybe, but I hope not. 

The system though is functioning perfectly for the .1-.2% of the population that it exists for. 

There are psychological and material (toxic chemicals in our food and other everyday items) factors that are deliberately and mindfully incorporated into our lives and designed to keep us “broken” as you say. 

Then again, the system it not so much different than religion. It only has as much power as we the people give it. It derives its power only on our faith and willingness to take part in it. All of it accomplished through conditioning and coercion. This is where these psychological and material factors come into play and are used as tools by the system and its administrators to further its consolidation of power. 

 

byke wrote:
Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems...

Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems with the people we choose. I think blaming systems is another method of self-preservation made up to avoid responsibility, because the one constant is that we always try our hardest to maintain the thought that we're awesome and someone else is terrible. I will straight up tell you that our major problems today, I contribute to in some way. It's just kind of not possible for it to be otherwise and those problems will never be addressed unless we peel back that ego.

And I don't agree about religion only existing through conditioning and coercion as a pejorative. You can maintain something good with a simple maintenance program. For example, civics is the maintenance program for core US culture. It needs to be mandated to be effective, but it's a positive mechanism that exists. Likewise, religion can also have a positive mechanism for supporting itself, and in practice it often does by helping people in the community. Sure, most often other church members, but that's also mostly a matter of who's in their social sphere, same as how we're not helping some poor old lady on the sewing forum. 

Not to imply that there are no systemic benefits for our oligarchy that were put in place by our oligarchy, because there are, but there's much more going on than that and we're all responsible for it, imo anyway. 

borg wrote:
Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The...

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its original limited powers, is the answer. The best way to test ideas like that is to back test it, because if it's a good idea for today and tomorrow, then it was a good idea for yesterday. So how does society look today if the federal government never really grew? How does ww2 turnout without the funding for all the equipment and manufacturing? It that taking purism too far? Like if we want a better county, then why isn't it a better idea to get civics back in classrooms? Because it sounds like saying, "people are too dumb to drive cars, so we should get rid of cars", whereas I think we should just teach people how to drive cars. 

Also, things were pretty good during the post-ww2 boom, economically speaking. After ww2 we had an improved position in global manufacturing with a weakened Europe, which I'm going to assume that debt is the big reference point here, so if you look at either the raw total of national debt over 100 years, or debt held per person over 100 years, yes we took on some debt for ww2, but things were trending down nicely after that for 30 years until to roughly the mid-70's they started to go back up and then Reagan kicked off a new era of irresponsible spending that's never ended. Also, it's been roughly the same number of Democrats and Republicans since then and they own it pretty equally. Oh and to get back to manufacturing, we'll get better at that with education. Wouldn't want to abandon or weaken manufacturing just because we're not very good at it right now, right? 

1
LOOnatic
Posts
731
Joined
5/20/2019
Location
New Orleans, LA, USA
6/8/2025 3:59pm Edited Date/Time 6/8/2025 4:00pm
byke wrote:
Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its...

Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its original limited powers, is the answer. The best way to test ideas like that is to back test it, because if it's a good idea for today and tomorrow, then it was a good idea for yesterday. So how does society look today if the federal government never really grew? How does ww2 turnout without the funding for all the equipment and manufacturing? It that taking purism too far? Like if we want a better county, then why isn't it a better idea to get civics back in classrooms? Because it sounds like saying, "people are too dumb to drive cars, so we should get rid of cars", whereas I think we should just teach people how to drive cars. 

Also, things were pretty good during the post-ww2 boom, economically speaking. After ww2 we had an improved position in global manufacturing with a weakened Europe, which I'm going to assume that debt is the big reference point here, so if you look at either the raw total of national debt over 100 years, or debt held per person over 100 years, yes we took on some debt for ww2, but things were trending down nicely after that for 30 years until to roughly the mid-70's they started to go back up and then Reagan kicked off a new era of irresponsible spending that's never ended. Also, it's been roughly the same number of Democrats and Republicans since then and they own it pretty equally. Oh and to get back to manufacturing, we'll get better at that with education. Wouldn't want to abandon or weaken manufacturing just because we're not very good at it right now, right? 

You seem like a reasonable enough guy.

 

That's why I kinda face palm your well thought out responses because you can't seem to grasp that our government has grown to find ways to spend an unspent  yearly budget because if they don't you get less next year.

 

That's a perverse reason to hire redundant employees and procure equipment but that's what's going on .

 

You seem to want a perfect and pain free method to reverse the years of bloat .

In today's polarized political environments it's not happening unfortunately. 

 

Running a 2 year blitz krieg campaign before midterm elections a la doge is likely the best chance to show  what can be done.

 

2
byke
Posts
3039
Joined
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Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/8/2025 4:06pm

All cuts always cause pain. There's just no getting around it. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm questioning that the new deal is trul the cause that it's been all downhill. I think the post-ww2 boom tells us that all we really need, is to improve manufacturing. That boom exists after the new deal, so we know that some degree of social net is easily sustainable with a productive society. 

1
LOOnatic
Posts
731
Joined
5/20/2019
Location
New Orleans, LA, USA
6/8/2025 4:25pm Edited Date/Time 6/8/2025 4:26pm
byke wrote:
All cuts always cause pain. There's just no getting around it. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm questioning that the...

All cuts always cause pain. There's just no getting around it. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm questioning that the new deal is trul the cause that it's been all downhill. I think the post-ww2 boom tells us that all we really need, is to improve manufacturing. That boom exists after the new deal, so we know that some degree of social net is easily sustainable with a productive society. 

You're emitting red pilled vibes brother.

 

Trump is the only one talking about improving domestic manufacturing  and yet liberal media hate on his outlandish ambitions for our domestic security and economy.

 

Are we finally agreeing on something in this thread?

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4
byke
Posts
3039
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/8/2025 4:41pm
byke wrote:
All cuts always cause pain. There's just no getting around it. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm questioning that the...

All cuts always cause pain. There's just no getting around it. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm questioning that the new deal is trul the cause that it's been all downhill. I think the post-ww2 boom tells us that all we really need, is to improve manufacturing. That boom exists after the new deal, so we know that some degree of social net is easily sustainable with a productive society. 

LOOnatic wrote:
You're emitting red pilled vibes brother. Trump is the only one talking about improving domestic manufacturing  and yet liberal media hate on his outlandish ambitions for our...

You're emitting red pilled vibes brother.

 

Trump is the only one talking about improving domestic manufacturing  and yet liberal media hate on his outlandish ambitions for our domestic security and economy.

 

Are we finally agreeing on something in this thread?

We probably agree on plenty, both at a high level and little bits here and there. Like I'm certain we both agree that spending is out of hand. I bet we both agree that there is government waste. I bet we both want sustainable economics. 

Don't care about the media though. There's no real metric for that, it's just a hurt feelings-o-meter, which I don't care about. 

Trump and DOGE are making all sorts of cuts, so why are they ruining the benefit of those cuts by increasing defense spending and reducing revenue with tax cuts? To me, that's red pill vibes. The most I think you could accurately say, if you want deep cuts in order to pay down debt, is something like, "whyyyyyy?? you were so close, so why are you assholes fucking it all up?!?!?".

If I say, "...corner of your crops..." are you getting the reference? So that's one cut I don't like, cutting farmers which grow healthy food for kids and seniors and then having to subsidize those famers because we cut their business. At least before, there was a food benefit to people, but now, it's paying for getting nothing. Not a fan. This all seems very poorly thought out.

 

1
1
BH_84
Posts
370
Joined
10/28/2024
Location
Cameron, ON, CA
Fantasy
6/8/2025 5:22pm

ERB even came out of retirement for this one

1
1
borg
Posts
6777
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
6/8/2025 5:38pm
byke wrote:
Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems...

Yeahhhh...think we have different ways of thinking about this. I think it's always us. We create systems with the people we choose and we tolerate systems with the people we choose. I think blaming systems is another method of self-preservation made up to avoid responsibility, because the one constant is that we always try our hardest to maintain the thought that we're awesome and someone else is terrible. I will straight up tell you that our major problems today, I contribute to in some way. It's just kind of not possible for it to be otherwise and those problems will never be addressed unless we peel back that ego.

And I don't agree about religion only existing through conditioning and coercion as a pejorative. You can maintain something good with a simple maintenance program. For example, civics is the maintenance program for core US culture. It needs to be mandated to be effective, but it's a positive mechanism that exists. Likewise, religion can also have a positive mechanism for supporting itself, and in practice it often does by helping people in the community. Sure, most often other church members, but that's also mostly a matter of who's in their social sphere, same as how we're not helping some poor old lady on the sewing forum. 

Not to imply that there are no systemic benefits for our oligarchy that were put in place by our oligarchy, because there are, but there's much more going on than that and we're all responsible for it, imo anyway. 

borg wrote:
Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The...

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

byke wrote:
Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its...

Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its original limited powers, is the answer. The best way to test ideas like that is to back test it, because if it's a good idea for today and tomorrow, then it was a good idea for yesterday. So how does society look today if the federal government never really grew? How does ww2 turnout without the funding for all the equipment and manufacturing? It that taking purism too far? Like if we want a better county, then why isn't it a better idea to get civics back in classrooms? Because it sounds like saying, "people are too dumb to drive cars, so we should get rid of cars", whereas I think we should just teach people how to drive cars. 

Also, things were pretty good during the post-ww2 boom, economically speaking. After ww2 we had an improved position in global manufacturing with a weakened Europe, which I'm going to assume that debt is the big reference point here, so if you look at either the raw total of national debt over 100 years, or debt held per person over 100 years, yes we took on some debt for ww2, but things were trending down nicely after that for 30 years until to roughly the mid-70's they started to go back up and then Reagan kicked off a new era of irresponsible spending that's never ended. Also, it's been roughly the same number of Democrats and Republicans since then and they own it pretty equally. Oh and to get back to manufacturing, we'll get better at that with education. Wouldn't want to abandon or weaken manufacturing just because we're not very good at it right now, right? 

You a seem to be saying that I blame the current situation on the New Deal. I don't. I blame it for the trend towards concentrating power in Washington. There was significant push back to that trend all through the 30's. Debt from WWII was entirely expected and necessary. National defense is, and always was, the job of the federal government. That debt however, was mostly paid off, because it was still important to Congress to keep debt under control. But because Keynesian economics had taken hold, because of the New Deal, it remained. There was still significant push back to federal programs and spending clear into the 80's. It was the near complete abandonment of the 9th and 10th amendments, in order to apply Keynesian theory, that the federal debt really began to get out of control. And yes, it began in earnest in the 1980"s. The federal government is allowed to accumulate debt and most states are not which is big problem. 

Almost nobody in the federal government gives a shit about debt anymore and the ignorant voters like it that way. That's why we keep electing Santa Clause instead of Scrooge. Start taking that shit away and it will not result in voter education, it will result in voter revolution like we saw in Greece and most other countries that were forced into spending reductions.  Just a hint of it started riots all over France.

I don't see how it's possible that this ends well. 

4
byke
Posts
3039
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA, USA
6/9/2025 8:45am
borg wrote:
Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The...

Shit began falling apart with the new deal. Before that, the most important politicians to average people were the mayor, the sheriff and the governor. The President and the federal government had little to do with the day to day lives of the people. FDR changed that by thinking he could  fix the depression which he never did. This was helped along by Congress putting all their cards on the commerce clause, so they could ignore the 9th and 10th amendments, and the federal government never looked back. The vast majority of the voters simply do not have the knowledge to make the choices they are being asked to make at the national level nor should they. If you look, you can find books, going back 60 or 70 years where they tested voters on their knowledge of how government works. The results were and remain dismal. The only fix for this is to shrink back the federal government to the very limited powers it once had. I don't see that happening without major chaos. Until then, we get the government we deserve. Congress is almost completely dysfunctional and we see a never ending parade of grifters and community organizers in the White House. 

byke wrote:
Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its...

Not sure I agree with the conclusion, that because the masses have never really known how government works, that shrinking the federal government back to its original limited powers, is the answer. The best way to test ideas like that is to back test it, because if it's a good idea for today and tomorrow, then it was a good idea for yesterday. So how does society look today if the federal government never really grew? How does ww2 turnout without the funding for all the equipment and manufacturing? It that taking purism too far? Like if we want a better county, then why isn't it a better idea to get civics back in classrooms? Because it sounds like saying, "people are too dumb to drive cars, so we should get rid of cars", whereas I think we should just teach people how to drive cars. 

Also, things were pretty good during the post-ww2 boom, economically speaking. After ww2 we had an improved position in global manufacturing with a weakened Europe, which I'm going to assume that debt is the big reference point here, so if you look at either the raw total of national debt over 100 years, or debt held per person over 100 years, yes we took on some debt for ww2, but things were trending down nicely after that for 30 years until to roughly the mid-70's they started to go back up and then Reagan kicked off a new era of irresponsible spending that's never ended. Also, it's been roughly the same number of Democrats and Republicans since then and they own it pretty equally. Oh and to get back to manufacturing, we'll get better at that with education. Wouldn't want to abandon or weaken manufacturing just because we're not very good at it right now, right? 

borg wrote:
You a seem to be saying that I blame the current situation on the New Deal. I don't. I blame it for the trend towards concentrating...

You a seem to be saying that I blame the current situation on the New Deal. I don't. I blame it for the trend towards concentrating power in Washington. There was significant push back to that trend all through the 30's. Debt from WWII was entirely expected and necessary. National defense is, and always was, the job of the federal government. That debt however, was mostly paid off, because it was still important to Congress to keep debt under control. But because Keynesian economics had taken hold, because of the New Deal, it remained. There was still significant push back to federal programs and spending clear into the 80's. It was the near complete abandonment of the 9th and 10th amendments, in order to apply Keynesian theory, that the federal debt really began to get out of control. And yes, it began in earnest in the 1980"s. The federal government is allowed to accumulate debt and most states are not which is big problem. 

Almost nobody in the federal government gives a shit about debt anymore and the ignorant voters like it that way. That's why we keep electing Santa Clause instead of Scrooge. Start taking that shit away and it will not result in voter education, it will result in voter revolution like we saw in Greece and most other countries that were forced into spending reductions.  Just a hint of it started riots all over France.

I don't see how it's possible that this ends well. 

Agree that almost nobody in the federal government really gives a shit about debt anymore, but I think it's because people in government come from the masses and the masses don't give a shit about debt anymore. Raw numbers of household/consumer debt and national debt follow similar trends starting at similar times. The absolute worst thing we can do, and almost certainly will do, is do the whole narcissistic us/them thing where we think government tis awful and we're amazing and we've really had enough for realsies this time! Because that's just kicking the can down the road while the problem balloons, like we've been doing. When we change, is when we'll be far more likely to ensure that we'll get consecutive politicians with similar spending thoughts on debt. It's just a blame game with more spending until then. 

Also agree it won't end well, because we won't make that change without some pain. 

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