What is the next step in engine/chassis development?

MXer391
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Altoona, PA, USA
4/29/2025 8:04am

Drive(or Ride)-by-wire throttle systems. Jamie from Twisted Development has mentioned this in a few interviews. Ironically, The new Suzuki DRZ uses this technology. 

4
4/29/2025 8:05am
I would like to see factory installed suspension options for your weight similar to how Beta currently offers. Beta offers factory installed suspension upgrades and tunes...

I would like to see factory installed suspension options for your weight similar to how Beta currently offers. Beta offers factory installed suspension upgrades and tunes when you buy a new bike, or you can send your existing suspension in for an upgrade. Just one less thing to worry about having to do when buying a new bike. Then its truly "ready to race." 

For two strokes, I am surprised no-one has developed an adjustable length muffler so you can tune your exhaust based on the type of track you go to. Lengthen the canister for high speed tracks or shorten it for more bottom end. 

Honestly, bikes are pretty good. I could care less about any electronic tuning or metrics. Just one more thing to go wrong or worry about. I just want a bike I can work on that I don't need to own a shop diagnostic system or be tethered to the dealership when something breaks. 

Me too, a quality built carbed 2 stroke with new frame and suspension components..Id be happt till the day I die.

2
GateDropGoGo
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4/29/2025 8:09am

IDK about future developments, but why did dirt bike "Development" stagnate or stop, for all intents and purposes, in the late 90's-early 2000's???

You can't competitively race a 60's dirt bike against a 70's dirt bike.You can't competitively race a 70's dirt bike against an 80's dirt bike. You can't competitively race an 80's dirt bike against a 90's dirt bike....

"Development" used to leap frog forward in a way that made the previous generation's technology completely obsolete within a decade.

That stopped. Now we get tiny incremental improvements,, but no true "game changing" Development that really matters in a fundamental way....often, Development goes backwards (air forks) in terms of true performance these days...Dirt bike "Development" has basically become Bells and Whistles....

We have guys qualifying for SX races and Nationals on YZ 250 2-Strokes every year currently. That's 20-25 year old technology. Some will tell you that bike still has the best front suspension on the track.

In 2005, I thought we'd be on "magic carpets" in 20 years... 

 

8
englishman
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4/29/2025 8:22am
IDK about future developments, but why did dirt bike "Development" stagnate or stop, for all intents and purposes, in the late 90's-early 2000's???You can't competitively race...

IDK about future developments, but why did dirt bike "Development" stagnate or stop, for all intents and purposes, in the late 90's-early 2000's???

You can't competitively race a 60's dirt bike against a 70's dirt bike.You can't competitively race a 70's dirt bike against an 80's dirt bike. You can't competitively race an 80's dirt bike against a 90's dirt bike....

"Development" used to leap frog forward in a way that made the previous generation's technology completely obsolete within a decade.

That stopped. Now we get tiny incremental improvements,, but no true "game changing" Development that really matters in a fundamental way....often, Development goes backwards (air forks) in terms of true performance these days...Dirt bike "Development" has basically become Bells and Whistles....

We have guys qualifying for SX races and Nationals on YZ 250 2-Strokes every year currently. That's 20-25 year old technology. Some will tell you that bike still has the best front suspension on the track.

In 2005, I thought we'd be on "magic carpets" in 20 years... 

 

It’s like when you first started riding MX. At first you’re really bad so you make huge leaps but as you get better improvements in lap times get harder and harder until you get to the pro level where taking a second or two off your lap time takes a huge amount of work.

Those ‘60’s,‘70’s & ‘80’s bikes were easy to improve on but now we’re at the “ pro level “ as it were where legit improvements are hard to find and expensive to implement . 

5

The Shop

4/29/2025 8:47am
blaster99 wrote:
Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then...

Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then full aftermarket hybrids back in the 90s and early 2000s. There is room for a new player, but Polaris is.... Polaris. Not even close to a top of the line brand from an ATV Motocross history standpoint.

If they produce something, it will likely be a new Outlaw model. The Scrabler is a full on trail quad. I'm almost certain those had a CVT drive train, and were 2 strokes at one point? The existing scrambler platform was simply garbage. I had the pleasure... or displeasure of racing an Outlaw in 2012. The thing was a fat, heavy and uncomfortable machine. The weight distribution was lower in the chassis, and the only benefit was it could start like no other quad I had ever owned. Once the race started, hold on for dear life, everyone's going to be knocking on your grab bar and you struggle to make it through the rough parts of the track.

I also believe they had partnered with KTM on the engine. I can't remember exactly, so I could be wrong. The engine was the only good thing about that aside from the weight distribution for straight line speed. Maybe they are going to partner with KTM again for engines? I'm sure KTM is looking for any form of revenue at this point. If Polaris does try it with the Outlaw, I hope they revamp that terrible unreliable frame. It feel like i would crack the frame every other race.

I wouldn't bet on Polaris doing an Outlaw or Predator-type machine, 450 or otherwise.  Their bread and butter are CVT 4x4 machines.  In the big bore class, they more or less offer the Sportsman (utility) and Scrambler (sport) as 850/1000cc inline twins.  The only real differentiator between the two are the plastics.  This is pretty much mirrored by CanAm with the Outlander and Renegade.

The current Scrambler had factory backing in GNCC for many years and there are several still running the 4x4 class.  Most frontrunners have moved onto Renegades though due to lack of factory support.  Team UXC was reportedly running an "improved" Scrambler at some GNCC rounds last year but there hasn't been much about it.

As an aside, Yamaha has been working on a big bore 4x4 sport machine for awhile now: https://dirtwheelsmag.com/is-a-new-yamaha-atv-coming-soon/

Sadly, I don't see a revival for more traditional sport quads any time soon.  Most of the market is trail riders and with how badly everything has been torn up by UTVs, riding a solid axle quad on a normal trail kind of sucks IMO.  They still shine in dunes or on the track.

SEEMEFIRST
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4/29/2025 9:15am

Gonna get hate for this probably but honestly I think electric is the future of development engine-wise.

Regarding suspension/chassis I see more electronic tuning for the terrain/track

sumdood wrote:
Man... it kills me to agree with you, but instant torque and no shifting is going to be hard to beat ease of riding wise. What...

Man... it kills me to agree with you, but instant torque and no shifting is going to be hard to beat ease of riding wise. What if the brakes were incorporated in with the throttle too ?. When you chop the throttle it's full brakes, (computer controlled and abs of course) from there the more you turn it the more you get, no thinking, no clutch, no levers, wide open to locked up all done with just the throttle... like a joystick.   

 

Should be interesting in corners...😉

1
Pop Shmoke
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4/29/2025 10:13am
IDK about future developments, but why did dirt bike "Development" stagnate or stop, for all intents and purposes, in the late 90's-early 2000's???You can't competitively race...

IDK about future developments, but why did dirt bike "Development" stagnate or stop, for all intents and purposes, in the late 90's-early 2000's???

You can't competitively race a 60's dirt bike against a 70's dirt bike.You can't competitively race a 70's dirt bike against an 80's dirt bike. You can't competitively race an 80's dirt bike against a 90's dirt bike....

"Development" used to leap frog forward in a way that made the previous generation's technology completely obsolete within a decade.

That stopped. Now we get tiny incremental improvements,, but no true "game changing" Development that really matters in a fundamental way....often, Development goes backwards (air forks) in terms of true performance these days...Dirt bike "Development" has basically become Bells and Whistles....

We have guys qualifying for SX races and Nationals on YZ 250 2-Strokes every year currently. That's 20-25 year old technology. Some will tell you that bike still has the best front suspension on the track.

In 2005, I thought we'd be on "magic carpets" in 20 years... 

 

Thats natural with all industriies. Look at computers, there were MASSIVE leaps in technology advancement in the early years. Today for most tasks a 10 year old computer can handle them just fine compared to a brand new cutting edge computer. Hell my macbook I still use if from 2011, its 14 years old. 

Look at aviation, the wright brothers first flew in 1903. The boeing 707 flew in 1953. 50 years to go from planes made out of balsa wood and piano wire to jet powered aircraft carrying hundreds of people flying hundreds of miles an hour 30,000 feet above ground. The concord first flew in 1969 16 years later. Planes these days are not much different than the 707 and muuuch slower than the concord. Its natural that when something is new it moves extremely fast and then slows down as it gets perfected. 

1
Saz
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4/29/2025 10:29am

IMO if you check out the Honda's article on the new 2025 CBR 1000RR-R SP. Its huge and lists in detail all the changes they made and the reasonings behind every change. I think this is how dirt bike development should be. A lot of people are resistant to change in the dirt bike scene and compared to street bikes dirt bikes have barely progressed at all. Bottom line up front its going to cost more, no matter what, no matter when, bikes are going to get faster, they are going to have more technology in them.

A true traction control system, 6 axis IMUs, gyros, better data collection is the first step I see coming next. 

1
4/29/2025 10:38am

variable cam timing would be cool. but maby to heavy on a small mx bike engine.

1
Homey55
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collinsville, OK, USA
4/29/2025 10:54am

3-D printing technology should be working its way in soon. I see that, and more built-in chassis adjustments for sub frames, bars, pegs, head angle, leverage ratios, etc. 

spimx
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4/29/2025 12:31pm

Suspension telemetry, I never change the map in my bike but suspension all the time

LungButter
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4/29/2025 1:07pm
wvumounty wrote:

Tire and moose all in one. 

What do you feel would the advantage of that?

3strokemx
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4/29/2025 1:19pm
wvumounty wrote:

Tire and moose all in one. 

LungButter wrote:

What do you feel would the advantage of that?

Perfectly matching the shape of the mousse inside the tire should help with more consistent handling characteristics and probably dissipate heat better.  

It could also open the door for multi density foams which could reduce weight and improve/change the feel.  

 

R66
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4/29/2025 1:58pm

None of this makes any of the racing better, only more expensive.  If everyone on the line had a 2006 2-stroke 250 the racing would as good, if not better than it is when everyone is on a fuel injected 450.

5
Saz
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4/29/2025 2:54pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2025 2:55pm

I want dirt bike development personally, its going to happen anyway. I dont understand the resistance to it, if you want to buy the same bike every single year at a new price with no changes by all means, do you. I'd rather see technology go forward and invest in that.

OldTech
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4/29/2025 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 4/29/2025 4:26pm
R66 wrote:
None of this makes any of the racing better, only more expensive.  If everyone on the line had a 2006 2-stroke 250 the racing would as...

None of this makes any of the racing better, only more expensive.  If everyone on the line had a 2006 2-stroke 250 the racing would as good, if not better than it is when everyone is on a fuel injected 450.

What if a 2006 250 2t was allowed in the 250 class?  Just asking because who would be upset about 20-year-old technology? (as long as it passes tech) I guess what I'm saying is, if today's 250cc high dollar wonder technology is afraid of decades ago 250cc technology, what is the point?

4
Pop Shmoke
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4/29/2025 5:08pm
Saz wrote:
IMO if you check out the Honda's article on the new 2025 CBR 1000RR-R SP. Its huge and lists in detail all the changes they made...

IMO if you check out the Honda's article on the new 2025 CBR 1000RR-R SP. Its huge and lists in detail all the changes they made and the reasonings behind every change. I think this is how dirt bike development should be. A lot of people are resistant to change in the dirt bike scene and compared to street bikes dirt bikes have barely progressed at all. Bottom line up front its going to cost more, no matter what, no matter when, bikes are going to get faster, they are going to have more technology in them.

A true traction control system, 6 axis IMUs, gyros, better data collection is the first step I see coming next. 

Thats pretty interesting and Ill look into this bike. 

I guess I should have said this in the first post, but I’m also asking what is coning down the pipeline from the motogp side. The finger followers, super high revving engines, high compression, downdraft, centerport…etc is all stuff that came over from motogp. A lot of stuff starts out over there and comes to mx later on. I’m not really up on motogp very much, but I know they use a holeshot device on the rear, maybe that could be something that comes over to mx? What are other things theyre doing that havent made it over yet? I know using the engine as a stressed member of the frame has been done over there, not sure if it still is. Carbon fiber subframes would make sense much earlier than a whole frame. What other secret sauce are they doing that should be making its way over to mx/sx?

4/29/2025 5:43pm
MXer391 wrote:

Drive(or Ride)-by-wire throttle systems. Jamie from Twisted Development has mentioned this in a few interviews. Ironically, The new Suzuki DRZ uses this technology. 

Throttle cam changes offer huge results in feel. Drive by wire would be next level to integrate into map changes. 

1
blaster99
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Fantasy
4/29/2025 5:58pm
blaster99 wrote:
Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then...

Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then full aftermarket hybrids back in the 90s and early 2000s. There is room for a new player, but Polaris is.... Polaris. Not even close to a top of the line brand from an ATV Motocross history standpoint.

If they produce something, it will likely be a new Outlaw model. The Scrabler is a full on trail quad. I'm almost certain those had a CVT drive train, and were 2 strokes at one point? The existing scrambler platform was simply garbage. I had the pleasure... or displeasure of racing an Outlaw in 2012. The thing was a fat, heavy and uncomfortable machine. The weight distribution was lower in the chassis, and the only benefit was it could start like no other quad I had ever owned. Once the race started, hold on for dear life, everyone's going to be knocking on your grab bar and you struggle to make it through the rough parts of the track.

I also believe they had partnered with KTM on the engine. I can't remember exactly, so I could be wrong. The engine was the only good thing about that aside from the weight distribution for straight line speed. Maybe they are going to partner with KTM again for engines? I'm sure KTM is looking for any form of revenue at this point. If Polaris does try it with the Outlaw, I hope they revamp that terrible unreliable frame. It feel like i would crack the frame every other race.

I wouldn't bet on Polaris doing an Outlaw or Predator-type machine, 450 or otherwise.  Their bread and butter are CVT 4x4 machines.  In the big bore...

I wouldn't bet on Polaris doing an Outlaw or Predator-type machine, 450 or otherwise.  Their bread and butter are CVT 4x4 machines.  In the big bore class, they more or less offer the Sportsman (utility) and Scrambler (sport) as 850/1000cc inline twins.  The only real differentiator between the two are the plastics.  This is pretty much mirrored by CanAm with the Outlander and Renegade.

The current Scrambler had factory backing in GNCC for many years and there are several still running the 4x4 class.  Most frontrunners have moved onto Renegades though due to lack of factory support.  Team UXC was reportedly running an "improved" Scrambler at some GNCC rounds last year but there hasn't been much about it.

As an aside, Yamaha has been working on a big bore 4x4 sport machine for awhile now: https://dirtwheelsmag.com/is-a-new-yamaha-atv-coming-soon/

Sadly, I don't see a revival for more traditional sport quads any time soon.  Most of the market is trail riders and with how badly everything has been torn up by UTVs, riding a solid axle quad on a normal trail kind of sucks IMO.  They still shine in dunes or on the track.

Ah, this makes sense. I've never been connected much with the big bore 4x4 side of things, especially in GNCC. I paid a little attention through the WPS days in 2008. Man, those guys were crazy! All that weight and still hauling ass. 

I had no idea that Polaris supported the Scrambler in GNCC. You are probably right. That "race quad" is likely a big bore-ish 4x4 that is easier to market to the public and the everyday rider. It's also able to be raced in GNCC.

I know this isn't a quad forum, so ill keep this brief, but i agree. The sport quads are dead. They aren't coming back. Its sad, but all good things come to an end. And yes, downvote away, sport quads in MX helped keep many tracks alive, even if the quads "molested" the track.

1
ithinkitsbroke
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4/29/2025 6:12pm
blaster99 wrote:
Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then...

Very interesting that Polaris is inquiring about a race quad. That market is dominated by Yamaha now, just like it was dominated by Honda, and then full aftermarket hybrids back in the 90s and early 2000s. There is room for a new player, but Polaris is.... Polaris. Not even close to a top of the line brand from an ATV Motocross history standpoint.

If they produce something, it will likely be a new Outlaw model. The Scrabler is a full on trail quad. I'm almost certain those had a CVT drive train, and were 2 strokes at one point? The existing scrambler platform was simply garbage. I had the pleasure... or displeasure of racing an Outlaw in 2012. The thing was a fat, heavy and uncomfortable machine. The weight distribution was lower in the chassis, and the only benefit was it could start like no other quad I had ever owned. Once the race started, hold on for dear life, everyone's going to be knocking on your grab bar and you struggle to make it through the rough parts of the track.

I also believe they had partnered with KTM on the engine. I can't remember exactly, so I could be wrong. The engine was the only good thing about that aside from the weight distribution for straight line speed. Maybe they are going to partner with KTM again for engines? I'm sure KTM is looking for any form of revenue at this point. If Polaris does try it with the Outlaw, I hope they revamp that terrible unreliable frame. It feel like i would crack the frame every other race.

I wouldn't bet on Polaris doing an Outlaw or Predator-type machine, 450 or otherwise.  Their bread and butter are CVT 4x4 machines.  In the big bore...

I wouldn't bet on Polaris doing an Outlaw or Predator-type machine, 450 or otherwise.  Their bread and butter are CVT 4x4 machines.  In the big bore class, they more or less offer the Sportsman (utility) and Scrambler (sport) as 850/1000cc inline twins.  The only real differentiator between the two are the plastics.  This is pretty much mirrored by CanAm with the Outlander and Renegade.

The current Scrambler had factory backing in GNCC for many years and there are several still running the 4x4 class.  Most frontrunners have moved onto Renegades though due to lack of factory support.  Team UXC was reportedly running an "improved" Scrambler at some GNCC rounds last year but there hasn't been much about it.

As an aside, Yamaha has been working on a big bore 4x4 sport machine for awhile now: https://dirtwheelsmag.com/is-a-new-yamaha-atv-coming-soon/

Sadly, I don't see a revival for more traditional sport quads any time soon.  Most of the market is trail riders and with how badly everything has been torn up by UTVs, riding a solid axle quad on a normal trail kind of sucks IMO.  They still shine in dunes or on the track.

blaster99 wrote:
Ah, this makes sense. I've never been connected much with the big bore 4x4 side of things, especially in GNCC. I paid a little attention through...

Ah, this makes sense. I've never been connected much with the big bore 4x4 side of things, especially in GNCC. I paid a little attention through the WPS days in 2008. Man, those guys were crazy! All that weight and still hauling ass. 

I had no idea that Polaris supported the Scrambler in GNCC. You are probably right. That "race quad" is likely a big bore-ish 4x4 that is easier to market to the public and the everyday rider. It's also able to be raced in GNCC.

I know this isn't a quad forum, so ill keep this brief, but i agree. The sport quads are dead. They aren't coming back. Its sad, but all good things come to an end. And yes, downvote away, sport quads in MX helped keep many tracks alive, even if the quads "molested" the track.

Polaris won't be coming out with any new quads in the near future. If they do, it'll be a moderate face lift on the big bore or an electric youth model. They've laid off hundreds of people in the last twelve months and shelved most programs that were anything more than BNG.

kawasa84
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4/30/2025 6:10am

For sure the next hot ticket is Honda or some manufacturer will come out with dual mufflers in the back to add a few pounds. 

Other than that, maybe electric start to add weight, a 4 stroke motor to add weight, and a gob of electronics to add more weight. 

Beyond all that, probably electric is the next big change

1
2
Crutcher
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4/30/2025 6:19am

Honestly, I'm hoping the next step are some steps backwards. Simplify them, reduce parts, more analog.

If the KTM 2 strokes stop development today- we will be perfectly happy with them for the rest of time.

4
snillum
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4/30/2025 7:33am

This will be off the wall but what about a hybrid drive train? There was a company a while back that created a backpack sized generator using a small rotary engine. We all like the long run times of fuel and quick refill, but the electric guys like the instant torque and no shifting of electric power. Could we see the best of both worlds? 

7eleven
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4/30/2025 8:13am

To be able to adjust your horsepower w/ the swipe of a finger. Oh, wait....IMG 1153 4.jpeg?VersionId=WDB9HQGpgIrl 4s

3
Pop Shmoke
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4/30/2025 8:17am
kawasa84 wrote:
For sure the next hot ticket is Honda or some manufacturer will come out with dual mufflers in the back to add a few pounds. Other than...

For sure the next hot ticket is Honda or some manufacturer will come out with dual mufflers in the back to add a few pounds. 

Other than that, maybe electric start to add weight, a 4 stroke motor to add weight, and a gob of electronics to add more weight. 

Beyond all that, probably electric is the next big change

The dual muffler years (both periods) were so dumb. Was so nice when they finally got rid of them. The funny part is it was a built in way to drop weight too once they got rid of em. 

1
Beagle
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4/30/2025 8:54am
snillum wrote:
This will be off the wall but what about a hybrid drive train? There was a company a while back that created a backpack sized generator...

This will be off the wall but what about a hybrid drive train? There was a company a while back that created a backpack sized generator using a small rotary engine. We all like the long run times of fuel and quick refill, but the electric guys like the instant torque and no shifting of electric power. Could we see the best of both worlds? 

Kawasaki just tried that. Interesting engineering exercise but heavy, bulky, expensive.

Might be worth a look at if you live in or near a low emission zone.

https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-reviews/kawasaki-ninja-7-hybrid-m…

RichieW13
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4/30/2025 9:37am
wvumounty wrote:

Tire and moose all in one. 

LungButter wrote:

What do you feel would the advantage of that?

Maybe it would be easier to install?

englishman
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4/30/2025 9:40am
R66 wrote:
None of this makes any of the racing better, only more expensive.  If everyone on the line had a 2006 2-stroke 250 the racing would as...

None of this makes any of the racing better, only more expensive.  If everyone on the line had a 2006 2-stroke 250 the racing would as good, if not better than it is when everyone is on a fuel injected 450.

Agreed. Racing has never got “ better” . The GP’s in the ‘70’s were awesome ( and probably the ‘50’s & ‘60’s I was too young to witness those ). They maybe going faster today but it’s not better just different.

If everyone showed up at the first national this year on 1978 technology with a matched track the actual racing would be just as exciting as it is today. 

1
lumpy790
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4/30/2025 10:10am

Thank you Luxon for stepping up posting great information in this post. I too agree with you on the AI part. Use your brain. 

Here is a question for you when it comes to flex. Is triple clamps flex a major part of a bikes handling? Some people have been complaining about a bikes suspension and handling being bad. Can adding more triple clamp flex give them what magic cure they are looking for? Another part is Fork tube fles could be a major part of this too.

Frames also use the motors for part of the frames bracing and strength and I see some are completely removing motor mounts so the frame actually flexes more. Is this transferring a load in one area of the frame that is now a place that will eventually fail and crack?

Post a reply to: What is the next step in engine/chassis development?

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