KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

soggy
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11/29/2024 7:54am
soggy wrote:
Ok clearly I am trying to have a nuanced conversation and you are a blockhead. I’ve got no problem admitting when I’m wrong. I’ve done it numerous...

Ok clearly I am trying to have a nuanced conversation and you are a blockhead. 

I’ve got no problem admitting when I’m wrong. I’ve done it numerous times on here and am able to humbly admit I don’t know what I don’t know. 

MxAddic wrote:
Now might be a good time to stand behind your post and admit you are wrong to all of us or you can continue to be...

Now might be a good time to stand behind your post and admit you are wrong to all of us or you can continue to be the most prominent hypocrite on vital.

Where should I send the bill?

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MxAddic
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11/29/2024 8:07am Edited Date/Time 11/29/2024 8:08am
soggy wrote:

Where should I send the bill?

I have been wrong before.

I kind of figured we are even after all the shit you gave me this week.

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soggy
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11/29/2024 8:12am
soggy wrote:

Where should I send the bill?

MxAddic wrote:

I have been wrong before.

I kind of figured we are even after all the shit you gave me this week.

Alright bud, whatever you say! I wasn’t even keeping score???

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mx317
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11/29/2024 9:35am
PTshox wrote:
Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or...

IMG 1800 1Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or below... this will freak you out. Happy thanks giving everyone! Love you. And I know I can't fix stupid. No matter how hard I try. I just can't. LOL

Pretty yes, but probably didn’t help performance. 

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The Shop

11/29/2024 9:38am Edited Date/Time 11/29/2024 9:45am
PTshox wrote:
Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or...

IMG 1800 1Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or below... this will freak you out. Happy thanks giving everyone! Love you. And I know I can't fix stupid. No matter how hard I try. I just can't. LOL

mx317 wrote:

Pretty yes, but probably didn’t help performance. 

If you feel faster, you ride faster.  Only way I can see that making any difference 

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brocster
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11/29/2024 9:56am
PTshox wrote:
Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or...

IMG 1800 1Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or below... this will freak you out. Happy thanks giving everyone! Love you. And I know I can't fix stupid. No matter how hard I try. I just can't. LOL

mx317 wrote:

Pretty yes, but probably didn’t help performance. 

If you feel faster, you ride faster.  Only way I can see that making any difference 

Correct. Has the same affect as drilling out your gas tank mount bolt washer…

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11/29/2024 10:26am
Talked with my bro over Thanksgiving dinner and I agree with what he was saying. Basically they stretched too thin with GasGas and should have stuck with...

Talked with my bro over Thanksgiving dinner and I agree with what he was saying. 

Basically they stretched too thin with GasGas and should have stuck with the original plan of having Husqvarna be their top-tier bikes and KTM be a “normal” range. 
 

Husqvarna has the Factory Editions and enduro bikes but keep the model ranges small and low’sh quantity. KTM has everything else for moto and their offroad range bikes stay linkless. 

To me it separates the 2 enough, as we’ve seen and realistically know the 3 brands are almost identical and still too expensive compared to the other manufacturers. 

I do wish them luck because that’s a lot of families in limbo and that sucks. 

Pop Shmoke wrote:
I agree that they should have tried to differentiate more, but it probably should have been a lot more than just 3 different tiers of race...

I agree that they should have tried to differentiate more, but it probably should have been a lot more than just 3 different tiers of race bikes. I feel like the problem isnt so much the 3 brands, its that the 3 brands had the same bikes that only catered to a small segment of the market. If ktm only wants to sell dirt bikes and a couple street bikes then they should be trying to grab a bigger market share. 

The dirt bike/street bike market is already small, but then when they only go for the racing segment thats an even smaller slice of the pie. They only sell mx and gncc race bikes. For entry level 50cc bikes you can only buy 2 stroke race 50’s. Most ppl who ride dont race and especially kids. Why dont they have a pw50 competitor? Or a crf50 competitor, or klx110 competitor. A brand new crf125f beginner bike from honda is $3499 msrp. Ktm doesnt have any competitor to that. 

I know ktm’s mantra is ready to race, but shouldnt they be trying to capture the whole market? I’m obviously not an expert here and maybe I’m wrong, but I just feel like theyre missing out on a lot of sales by not selling to the general public. If they wanted gas gas to be the entry level brand maybe instead of selling the same race 250f with a few lower quality parts, instead they made an entire new line of entry level bikes that are competitors to the lower end honda, kawi bikes. Below 250f ktm is all 2 strokes. I feel like they need some entry level 4 strokes from 50cc, to 110cc, to 125cc, to 230cc etc. 

There is no margin in the little bikes. after freight I think there is $59 left to be made on a pw 50, TTr 50 isn't much better.

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LOOnatic
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11/29/2024 11:25am
MPJC wrote:
I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the...

I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the 2 strokes. I can see wanting to keep development of the 4 strokes on the cutting edge, as they're being raced at the highest level But the 2 strokes aren't, and once they were counterbalanced, they were excellent. If they left them alone, they could have been like the YZ 2 strokes for Yamaha in that R & D was done years ago (yes, the YZs were updated recently, but they're still the same basic bike) but they keep selling every unit they make. At that point, it's a cash cow. On the other hand, when you're racking up R & D costs then having to sell at a discount, that's never a good formula. The 2022 125, 150, and 250 SX models could have sold virtually unchanged for years. No TPI or TBI needed on any 2 stroke - just keep it cheap and simple. That's part of the appeal of the YZ.

You make some very good points.

 

As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that to be clean air compliant for the ever restricted euro air quality standard. 

 

If  true then  how does Yamaha sell  carb'd YZ 2 strokes in Europe?

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soyMotero
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11/29/2024 11:51am
MPJC wrote:
I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the...

I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the 2 strokes. I can see wanting to keep development of the 4 strokes on the cutting edge, as they're being raced at the highest level But the 2 strokes aren't, and once they were counterbalanced, they were excellent. If they left them alone, they could have been like the YZ 2 strokes for Yamaha in that R & D was done years ago (yes, the YZs were updated recently, but they're still the same basic bike) but they keep selling every unit they make. At that point, it's a cash cow. On the other hand, when you're racking up R & D costs then having to sell at a discount, that's never a good formula. The 2022 125, 150, and 250 SX models could have sold virtually unchanged for years. No TPI or TBI needed on any 2 stroke - just keep it cheap and simple. That's part of the appeal of the YZ.

LOOnatic wrote:
You make some very good points. As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that...

You make some very good points.

 

As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that to be clean air compliant for the ever restricted euro air quality standard. 

 

If  true then  how does Yamaha sell  carb'd YZ 2 strokes in Europe?

The reason KTM did the TPi in the 2 stroke was for the Enduro models,  It was intended for Enduro bikes (because those are street legal) and then they put it in the MX models, I guess to have every single 2 stroke under the same technology (and save costs) MX bikes don't have to follow any enviroment rule in Europe because they are closed coursed vehicles, Yamaha does well with their 2 stroke models over here.

XC bikes are not existent over here because they don't have a license plate and you could get in deep trouble riding them in the Woods, Enduro bikes are allowed to ride in the Woods, hence the reason KTM went TPi, Kawi and Honda sell their XC models over here, but you have to turn it legal (and it costs a lot of €€€€ and Kawi and Honda are not going to pay that homolgation)

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Beagle
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11/29/2024 12:04pm
LOOnatic wrote:
You make some very good points. As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that...

You make some very good points.

 

As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that to be clean air compliant for the ever restricted euro air quality standard. 

 

If  true then  how does Yamaha sell  carb'd YZ 2 strokes in Europe?

Yamaha 2 strokes are not road homologated.

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MPJC
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Fantasy
11/29/2024 12:05pm
MPJC wrote:
I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the...

I'm sure this wouldn't have prevented all (or even much of) their problems, but I think they should have taken a lesson from Yamaha with the 2 strokes. I can see wanting to keep development of the 4 strokes on the cutting edge, as they're being raced at the highest level But the 2 strokes aren't, and once they were counterbalanced, they were excellent. If they left them alone, they could have been like the YZ 2 strokes for Yamaha in that R & D was done years ago (yes, the YZs were updated recently, but they're still the same basic bike) but they keep selling every unit they make. At that point, it's a cash cow. On the other hand, when you're racking up R & D costs then having to sell at a discount, that's never a good formula. The 2022 125, 150, and 250 SX models could have sold virtually unchanged for years. No TPI or TBI needed on any 2 stroke - just keep it cheap and simple. That's part of the appeal of the YZ.

LOOnatic wrote:
You make some very good points. As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that...

You make some very good points.

 

As far as making the 2 strokes un necessarily high tech with TPI-TBI i always heard KTM "had" to do that to be clean air compliant for the ever restricted euro air quality standard. 

 

If  true then  how does Yamaha sell  carb'd YZ 2 strokes in Europe?

soyMotero wrote:
The reason KTM did the TPi in the 2 stroke was for the Enduro models,  It was intended for Enduro bikes (because those are street legal)...

The reason KTM did the TPi in the 2 stroke was for the Enduro models,  It was intended for Enduro bikes (because those are street legal) and then they put it in the MX models, I guess to have every single 2 stroke under the same technology (and save costs) MX bikes don't have to follow any enviroment rule in Europe because they are closed coursed vehicles, Yamaha does well with their 2 stroke models over here.

XC bikes are not existent over here because they don't have a license plate and you could get in deep trouble riding them in the Woods, Enduro bikes are allowed to ride in the Woods, hence the reason KTM went TPi, Kawi and Honda sell their XC models over here, but you have to turn it legal (and it costs a lot of €€€€ and Kawi and Honda are not going to pay that homolgation)

A world exists outside of North America and outside of motocross? Kidding, of course. That's very informative. Thank you. 

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11/29/2024 1:27pm

Ktm should have been the we,fe,sr. the GasGas should have been the Rmz and the Husky the off-road and Ds. Lose the moto Gp team and the new headquarters. Rebate the current inventory until it's gone and start over.

SEMAC
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11/29/2024 5:09pm
UpTiTe wrote:

Suzuki is in the corner quietly laughing. 

Right

OldTech
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11/30/2024 8:41am
PTshox wrote:
Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or...

IMG 1800 1Hard to see anything more beautiful then a set of 2 stroke cases that look like this! But if you're IQ is at your age or below... this will freak you out. Happy thanks giving everyone! Love you. And I know I can't fix stupid. No matter how hard I try. I just can't. LOL

Don't forget this!Screenshot 20241130-102837 Chrome.jpg?VersionId=uTkiV9zrwzH96R3HGH7lNN9HS tST4

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Pat327
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11/30/2024 9:22am
9tjlmy3a4w3e1
8tensolutions
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11/30/2024 9:31am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2024 9:34am
Pat327 wrote:
9tjlmy3a4w3e1

This has nothing to do with selling cheap two strokes/entry level bikes, investing in the bicycle market, or moto gp.  It has everything to do with incredibly poor forecasting, assuming Covid sales would continue, and overspending like madmen across the company.  They ran out of money long ago and continued to leverage themselves with creditors and now they are screwed.  

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BAREIN
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11/30/2024 10:16am

That much debt for that size company seems insane. Makes you wonder if something criminal was going on

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1
11/30/2024 10:39am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2024 10:40am

You can only point the fingers at the C-suite execs. They get paid a mint to manage a company and plan for the future. The current execs have failed miserably in all financial aspects. 

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11/30/2024 10:44am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2024 10:47am
BAREIN wrote:

That much debt for that size company seems insane. Makes you wonder if something criminal was going on

Most manufacturers are leveraged. Here are a few of the big names for comparison in USD.

 

Debt:

Toyota: 255 billion

Honda: 68 billion 

VW: 219 billion

Ford: 159 billion 

GM: 127 billion

Suzuki:  5 billion 

Tesla: 7 billion  



Interestingly, Tesla and Suzuki are the only ones on this list with the cash reserves to payoff their debt. 
 

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MPJC
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11/30/2024 12:01pm

I wonder who their accountants are? If you see your clients being boneheads, you really should say something. I’m going to assume that their accountants at some point expressed concern but management thought themselves smarter than their accountants. Bad idea. 

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zehn
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11/30/2024 12:05pm
BAREIN wrote:

That much debt for that size company seems insane. Makes you wonder if something criminal was going on

tcannon521 wrote:
Most manufacturers are leveraged. Here are a few of the big names for comparison in USD. Debt:Toyota: 255 billionHonda: 68 billion VW: 219 billionFord: 159 billion GM: 127 billionSuzuki...

Most manufacturers are leveraged. Here are a few of the big names for comparison in USD.

 

Debt:

Toyota: 255 billion

Honda: 68 billion 

VW: 219 billion

Ford: 159 billion 

GM: 127 billion

Suzuki:  5 billion 

Tesla: 7 billion  



Interestingly, Tesla and Suzuki are the only ones on this list with the cash reserves to payoff their debt. 
 

Can’t compare KTM to the largest manufacturers in the world. You’re comparing what is essentially recreation spending on motorcycles with spending on vehicles that people need to live their lives

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MPJC
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11/30/2024 12:27pm
MPJC wrote:
I wonder who their accountants are? If you see your clients being boneheads, you really should say something. I’m going to assume that their accountants at...

I wonder who their accountants are? If you see your clients being boneheads, you really should say something. I’m going to assume that their accountants at some point expressed concern but management thought themselves smarter than their accountants. Bad idea. 

After a bit of snooping, I see that KPMG did their 2022 audit (a firm I know well - I spent 3 years). Just glancing at the report ratios looked pretty good back then and growth looked strong. But they got overexcited and things seem to have gone tits up in a hurry. I deal with small private clients (mostly in agriculture)so take what I say for what it’s worth which isn’t much - I’d be out of my depth trying to deal with the accounting for a group like this. But the overall picture seems straightforward enough. Tried to push too much growth too fast and now they’re drowning in debt. 

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BobPA
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11/30/2024 12:57pm

Why is there a set of polished cases randomly in this thread?

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MXRalph
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11/30/2024 1:01pm
BobPA wrote:

Why is there a set of polished cases randomly in this thread?

Just try it, you’ll see… or so I hear.

11/30/2024 1:01pm
BobPA wrote:

Why is there a set of polished cases randomly in this thread?

Thanksgiving cheer.

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Brad460
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11/30/2024 5:52pm
MPJC wrote:
After a bit of snooping, I see that KPMG did their 2022 audit (a firm I know well - I spent 3 years). Just glancing at...

After a bit of snooping, I see that KPMG did their 2022 audit (a firm I know well - I spent 3 years). Just glancing at the report ratios looked pretty good back then and growth looked strong. But they got overexcited and things seem to have gone tits up in a hurry. I deal with small private clients (mostly in agriculture)so take what I say for what it’s worth which isn’t much - I’d be out of my depth trying to deal with the accounting for a group like this. But the overall picture seems straightforward enough. Tried to push too much growth too fast and now they’re drowning in debt. 

Do you see any details on the debt- Inventory? Specific capex? 

11/30/2024 6:13pm
MPJC wrote:
After a bit of snooping, I see that KPMG did their 2022 audit (a firm I know well - I spent 3 years). Just glancing at...

After a bit of snooping, I see that KPMG did their 2022 audit (a firm I know well - I spent 3 years). Just glancing at the report ratios looked pretty good back then and growth looked strong. But they got overexcited and things seem to have gone tits up in a hurry. I deal with small private clients (mostly in agriculture)so take what I say for what it’s worth which isn’t much - I’d be out of my depth trying to deal with the accounting for a group like this. But the overall picture seems straightforward enough. Tried to push too much growth too fast and now they’re drowning in debt. 

Brad460 wrote:

Do you see any details on the debt- Inventory? Specific capex? 

H1 (July-September) 2024...

image 784.png?VersionId=Wcom7axfqHMBmLzQ73t
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