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Good luck with 30+2 at Lommel with an MXGP level rider onboard. BINGO. Won’t be a need for haters after this. Hondas bike may hold up simply because they already know what it takes, but the drive train, no chance.
Look at the bright side. They have a year and 364 days to change their minds.
Letting a Formula E car into F1 would be a little bit closer of an analogy. But still not really the same since the Electric version can be faster. Nothing about an F1 car would fit into the NASCAR rules, but everything but the lack of a gas engine would be legal for MXGP on the Varg.
In Your example , Your giving the Varg a lot more of an advantage than I think You will see in the real world with top racers.
I'm glad they will have a class on the same tracks and I assume the same day as the other MXGP races. While it may give a hint at how the entertainment factor of EMX works out for fans. Chances are they will not have the fastest riders on the bikes so it might be more like comparing a Futures race in SX to the main classes. It would be cool if they would allow the MX2 and MXGP guys to ride in the electric class too. That would give a better idea of how the fan experience would be for electric at the highest level. And also give some better data on how to restrict the EMX bikes so they can fit into MX2 and MXGP classes with ICE bikes at some point. Hopefully Yamaha will have a bike by then and Honda will race theirs too.
Yeah, I feel 2026 is way too early for such an unproven tech.
Give it ten more years.
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Stark certainly not happy about it.
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/9dx8uF6kyqn2F2KG/
the powers to be in this industry did the exact same thing and when it got bad, Alta found out quick no room for you. Funny when the 4 strokes came in everyone bent over backwards to give them an advantage, why not with electrics? well because there isn't the correct logo on the side of the shroud. This time i think the over whelming production of all kinds of these bikes will be a little harder for the controllers of the sport to keep them at bay. I am not a big electric guy by anymeans, but i sure the hell think they have a place in our sport, in our racing, why not include them in classes that are open cc etc?
simple. can't control it.
at the grass roots level in our sport these type bikes are at riding parks and riding areas all the time, it's not the tradition riders we have seen forever but NEW riders to our sport.
Why is that bad thing? I guess we have to many riders and to much support in the industry no room for new ones huh?
pretty short sighted unless you are the ones controlling it all.
https://www.motoheadmag.com/stark-opposes-new-e-bike-class-at-gps/?fbcl…
Stark being unhappy that the promoter is opening the door for them to race on the professional big stage (the actual real big stage - one of two of them) is bizarre to me. They could be stuck in amateur land until other OEMs have similar models and ultimately keeping them out of growing towards professional ranks which who knows how many years that will actually be.
Being upset with progress sounds too much "I want it all, I want it now" mentality. I seriously doubt the MXGP folks or AMA ever said a darn thing about what they would allow when this project began for Stark, it was a gamble from the start, and looking at other motorsports that have ICE and electric, they (Stark) should have had enough awareness to see they are never mixed, always separate classes. Promoters opening the door for them and embracing what is to come for this new class and Stark being the only current competitive manufacturer, should have 100% been a win for them.
Another reason for me to wait for one with an H on it.
Of course they can't expect every championship to accept them, they just want to compete against the best bikes and best riders, that's all.
There are now many competitions where electrics are welcome with open arms which demonstrates that this is not an unrealistic expectation. For instance the Varg is legal to race in the usual categories in Australia, France, Spain , Belgium, UK...
MXGP proposal is for separate class in 2026... who knows what bikes will be available in 2026 but as of now they would be basically competing against themselves which is not really interesting to improve the bike.
Do You think that Honda or any of the other established brands would be happy with a side show class?
It could just be Stark asking for more than they want, so they can get what they want?
Nobody will take a class seriously that has a single brand in it. It will look like the KTM Jr races at SX. I can totally understand Stark pushing for more. Even if they don't think they will get it. It tells me they must believe, or want people to believe that they will be able to get a 30+2 out of a Varg. Is Stark bluffing that they really want a shot at MGGP and MX2 classes? and secretly content with the new class.
Putting it out there publically that they feel ready to race at the highest level gives them some credibility. They can still race the E class and complain they want to be in the main classes. Just like a racer who signs for a 250 ride when they really want to be on a 450. I really think that they should let them run in the MXGP class. Or the return of MX3 and open CC/electric together.
I would love to see what they do to get a Varg to finish a 30+2 moto. And see if its still competitive at the reduced power level , or increased weight or with whatever they need to do to finish. Maybe they know they can run the battery way lower, abuse it but it can run a 30+2 , just will end up killing the battery sooner/less charge cycles. Maybe they would pull off every moto? Maybe they are bluffing and know they can not get the runtime and they really are thrilled with their new Varg class. I just hope that there are multiple brands in it when it starts.
Pretty much all of the Japanese brands have said they will have electric MX bikes. Kawasaki has given a date when they will be 100% electric. Making rules to allow mixed E and ICE racing should be in everybody's best interest. That way Kawasaki, Honda,Yamaha, maybe Suzuki will have rules to build their bikes to. Is it just a sign that those other brands bikes are that much farther away from being in production? Is it a sign they are much closer and do not want to let Stark know what they will have? Do they just fear the Varg could hurt sales that much that they do not want to race against it.
It's a sign the other brands are further behind Stark, Honda could race their CR-E, but if it's range is less than the Stark's, the races will be shorter than 30+2.
Let the Varg race, Stark can then prove to the world it can complete 30+2 pro levels.
All Stark need to do is become a series sponsor. Worked for Aprilia when twins were banned.
Because it's pointless to race against yourself, Stark wants to prove their bike against the other major manufacturers not have a side show class where they're essentially racing against themselves. They're more than happy to conform to whatever power limits the promotors decide to set, but in order to do that they need to actually be given guidance on what those power limits will be and how they can conform.
You can wait on that Honda all you want, but it's not going to hold a candle to the Stark in current prototype form.
Yah that's what I tend to think. And that Honda might be pushing for an Electric only class while they do not have a production bike available and or until they can get one to run a 30+2.
I would love to see what a good rider on a Varg could do in a MXGP. And also see what they would do to get the runtime they need.
Maybe just preproduction cells and running the voltage down past the safe limit? Decreasing the lifespan of the cells but increasing the runtime available. If they were able to get that boost of range they got just by tweaking the software. I imagine they could do it with some of the newest cells and running closer to the point of damaging a battery than You would ever want a regular customer to go.
When Honda announced the CR-E in 2019...
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/honda-cr-electric-motocross-prototype-unveiled-at-tokyo-motorcycle-show/
They stated it used Maxwell Li-ion cells...
https://biz.maxell.com/en/rechargeable_batteries/Li-ion_22e.pdf
These have the same 4200mAh capacity as the Molicel P42A cells Stark used in their prototype, before Stark changed to the 4500mAh Molicel P45B for production.
Honda's CR-E's battery pack is physically smaller than the Varg's, so it will have less battery cells, it's total capacity is likely under 6kWh, more likely 5-5.5kWh, which would not be enough for 30minutes +2 laps.
If Stark was allowed to compete in MXGP, you're right they could use newer P50B or even prototype Molicel cells (P55B or P60B?), run the battery pack until dead, and replace the battery pack between motos. But if they did that, Stark would learn a lot, it would accelerate Stark's development of the Varg, and potentially make their lead too large for Honda or other OEMs to catch up quickly.
I understand why Stark wants to race in the premier classes, they have a million reasons. But expecting it to happen just because you want it, was never realistic. You can't expect promoters (of the real series' around the globe) to just bend the rules because we have a new one-off manufacturer, that has bikes capable of 30% more power than the rest on the track, with a complete different power delivery, to GO UP AGAINST the manufacturers that are actually paying the bills. If you think that is all good, you really have a thing for getting ICE bikes wiped out.
When the other OEMs have something to compete, which is obviously 2026, things are going to change how everyone chiming in here wants, but until then, this should have been considered a gift to Stark.
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Yes, capable of 30% more power, but Stark has publicly stated they can and would turn the power down, and give the governing bodies tools to verify power output.
"to GO UP AGAINST the manufacturers that are actually paying the bills."
Who's bills are the manufacturers paying?
I like racerX take on this
"Electric has many advantages. There are downsides as well. The biggest trouble spot is that the advantages and downsides are hard to truly know. Stark Future, maker of the Varg electric motocross bike, would like to find out the old fashioned way. In a race."
https://racerxonline.com/2024/03/13/stark-future-challenges-mxgp-propos…
They just want to show their bike can be competitive in certain settings, and of course MXGP and AMA SX are the gold standard. I appreciate their eagerness to compete to prove their bike's worth, even if they probably would get crushed at the beginning.
Separate class on the same track same day would be a start. Just a very timid start by 2026.
Honda using different packing for cells their pack goes under seat as Stark is front part of ICE motor location. I would guess they are pretty close same in cell count and they have newer cells in use than 2019. I would guess they have gone from 4200 to 5000 or even higher for their prototype. Honda didnt look much lighter than Stark but weight is different spot.
Stark could do what Honda did some years ago when they had crf150 class running for kids at MXGP european events. Just put 20 Stark bikes out to rent and people will race between real races like those Hondas were. That will take lot of money but they could come out sooner than 2026 and have their race.
The race versions will have quick release batteries to swap or add depending on duration needed.
On the dreaded MXGE-OFFs site, there's an interview with Roger Harvey.
It was the first part.
Second part is supposed to have Honda's E Bike side of things featured. Let's see if that's the case.
People thinking Honda can't match Stark, with relation to battery capacity or innovation, and the same for the Motor etc, really are a bit dim. Now, that may be taken as my being a Honda brand fanboi - but I'm definitely Not.
It's just the fact that it's bloody Honda, and people think that a (very good, very innovative) company like Stark Varg can outdo a monster like Honda, well, I find that a bit laughable. Though, Honda have been known to f**k up, at times.
And, with regards to Anton's being upset - well, I can see that, given that he / they've said they Want to compete on the same track, for the same (GP / Outdoor / SX ) established times and distance from their start. That, would really push development / design for them. But, to use an old Shakespearian line , "(perhaps) The Lady [well, He, Anton] doth protest too much, methinks". He could be being somewhat performative in his dismay.
The smell of politics is never far away when Luongo's around.
And Money going into His Pockets, and His Only, KSI!
The difference is they are not saying ICE will be banned like they did 2 strokes. Seems cut and dried to me but I guess folks don’t get it.
Honda's battery pack does go higher than the Stark, it's area viewed from the side is 15% less than the Stark's, it also narrows between the frame spars...
Because Honda's battery pack is so high, it's center of gravity will be higher than the Stark's, which will be detrimental to handling.
The Maxwell 4200mAh capacity cells I linked, are the highest capacity production cells currently available from Maxwell, Honda may be using prototype cells from Maxwell or cells from another manufacturer, or prototype cells from their new solid state factory in Sakura. Until Honda release a production version it could be powered by unicorns.
If you want to compete against the best bikes and riders you build to the existing rules just like they did. Not doing so and crying let me race anyway is asinine.
Stark has outdone Honda, Honda publicly presented their prototype 5 years ago, this was before the Stark Varg was announced. No Honda production bikes have been ridden by the media and no customers have received bikes, meanwhile Stark has delivered production bikes to customers, even if it has been slow!
No doubt long term Honda is capable of matching Stark, but they haven't demonstrated it yet.
Honda must be bench marking their prototype against the Stark, it may need some improvements, there is no point bring a race bike to market with a lower performance.
Stark did that, they turned up to the FIM SuperEnduro and the FIM changed the rules to stop them competing!
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