Ducati Desmo MX 450 reveal-livestream

SonofThor32
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1/24/2024 6:03am

If you're not going to change gear, why not get a Stark?

Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social climate, and in that part of the world, with a 4-stroke motor and not electric?

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soggy
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1/24/2024 6:06am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 6:08am
soggy wrote:

Taking weight away from the axles won’t do anything for the center of gravity. 

I really don’t know how to say this other than saying this but, all this talk of this whole weight thing. Is non sense, have you...

I really don’t know how to say this other than saying this but, all this talk of this whole weight thing. Is non sense, have you seen how many championships and titles in on road racing they have since that valve-train was introduced? It speaks for itself, ole dirt bikin’s center of g spot ain’t ever gonna notice it’s even there.

Then why not just say that in the first place instead of something about titanium?

 

i agree with you btw. Sometimes weight is a good thing!

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Alan Dove
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1/24/2024 6:20am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 6:22am
Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social...

Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social climate, and in that part of the world, with a 4-stroke motor and not electric?

... because that's what is mandated for the elite level competitions for which the plan to compete. It's also currently the largest market to sell into. 

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OldTech
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1/24/2024 6:41am
WFO Dave wrote:
desmodromic valve is a reciprocating engine poppet valve that is positively closed by a cam and leverage system, rather than by a more conventional spring.

desmodromic valve is a reciprocating engine poppet valve that is positively closed by a cam and leverage system, rather than by a more conventional spring.Screenshot 2024-01-23 at 2.20.59%E2%80%AFPM.png?VersionId=adlDAnxtWiScreenshot 2024-01-23 at 2.20.41%E2%80%AFPM

I had questioned earlier are these hydraulic lifters? I guess I am asking if hydraulic there is no need for adjusting valve lash?

OldTech wrote:
I had a Ducati tech friend work out of my place for extra cash. There are twice as many shims of multiple types,and he would install...

I had a Ducati tech friend work out of my place for extra cash. There are twice as many shims of multiple types,and he would install a wedge/tool in there and spin the motor with a breaker bar and bang ,parts would fall out! Also,valve "clearances "are set at top and bottom...

Sorry guys that anecdote was first cup of coffee.  Place your cylinder head on the table with no cams, now try to open a valve with your thumb on the bucket. That's how much pressure is on that lower rocker, and has to be perfect. The opening clearance is essentially zero. As the valve and seat wear these clearances need to be adjusted together or disaster. Hope that helps. 

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The Shop

Beagle
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1/24/2024 7:03am Edited Date/Time 1/24/2024 7:05am

If you're not going to change gear, why not get a Stark?

Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social...

Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social climate, and in that part of the world, with a 4-stroke motor and not electric?

I am really wondering about that as well. I feel that Ducati will be competitive because their competition record speaks for the company.

But I also have a stupid prediction, I bet Ducati will be going electric much faster than the other OEMs (not to replace but to complement their range of bikes). Please downvote away but allow me to explain: NOBODY saw that coming when they became official supplier for MotoE, creating an electric prototype, and a entire new division from scratch, Ducati E-mobility.

Why did they do that? We're talking about Ducati, famed for its Desmo valves and twin engines... it was already an heresy when they went 4 cylinders for MotoGP, 15 years later it was sacrilege when they released the Panigale V4. Well they developed 4 cylinders to win, simple as that, it might have ruffled some feathers but they are world champions and their bikes are selling like hotcakes.

So why did Ducati create an entire division dedicated to electric bikes, why are they spending so much to develop and supply 18 MotoE bikes? To gain knowledge. One season is about 40 000 km of racing and over 50 crashes, most of them high speed, without any reliability nor safety issue. What better test can they be than competition?

Now they know how to design and make electric bikes, they are well aware of current tech limitations, and they know an electric sportbike will not be competitive with ICE for some time... Ducati knows the only real performance electric bike you can build right now is a dirtbike, and if they ever go down this route, they sure won't need 6+ years of development to send their prototype to its first race (looking at you Honda).

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SonofThor32
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1/24/2024 9:18am
Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social...

Which begs the question, why would an Italian and English motorcycle company (Triumph) be entering the dirt bike world in this day, age, political and social climate, and in that part of the world, with a 4-stroke motor and not electric?

Alan Dove wrote:

... because that's what is mandated for the elite level competitions for which the plan to compete. It's also currently the largest market to sell into. 

It was a general question, not necessarily what I would have wanted to see.  That region is more climate driven than the rest of the world, and under more political and social pressure to go all electric (can't blame them with the price of gas there).  From the Vital users residing in that region, it seems the majority of folks living there are excited about going electric in MX, so there is apparently a market.  I can't tell if they missed it, or they are smarter than many of us and feel there really is not going to be a sustainable market for electric in the foreseeable future.

I am excited to see the Ducati, I wish the front fender didn't look so odd, but the rest is art, I can't wait to hear one.

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Village Idiot
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1/24/2024 10:28am
JackLHyde wrote:

What would they use the higher revs for? 3-speed transmission?

yz133rider wrote:

You could leave it in 2nd, have lower gearing and still pull to the moon without giving up any mph while pulling harder from the gearing.

If you're not going to change gear, why not get a Stark?

Um, because I'm straight? Whistling

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1/24/2024 1:51pm

The bottom end looks production ready clean, cylinder and head looks prototype still. Most likely trying multiple options.

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Team Euro
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1/25/2024 4:19am
-MAVERICK- wrote:

Do I see bolts in the top front of the frames engine cradle?

Heard there’s only 3 welds on the entire frame

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wfopete
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1/25/2024 5:40am

MSRP?

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-MAVERICK-
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1/26/2024 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 1/26/2024 4:37pm

From DC in Racerhead:

"In 2025 Ducati plans on racing in MXGP (where works bikes and prototypes are allowed) and maybe even the Grand National Cross Country (GNCC). And then in 2026, after at least 400 Desmo 450 models are built and the brand is homologated with the AMA, then they will race in Monster Energy AMA Supercross and the AMA Pro Motocross Championship. They are looking for an existing team to partner with, hopefully on the East Coast, and while I have a few guesses who they may be talking to, Paolo would not confirm or deny anything."


They want to partner with an existing team that's preferably on the East Coast.

Any guesses? Phoenix? ClubMX?

Edit:

Who else is based on the East Coast?

Star 
FirePower
PRMX

Wild guess, ClubMX takes over Factory Yamaha, and Star becomes Factory Monster Energy Ducati. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

OldTech
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1/26/2024 5:23pm

Are we allowed to convert to valve springs?

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Team Euro
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1/27/2024 12:21am
OldTech wrote:

Are we allowed to convert to valve springs?

Why?

OldTech
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1/27/2024 7:46am
OldTech wrote:

Are we allowed to convert to valve springs?

Team Euro wrote:

Why?

Honestly? Ease of service and simplicity. Springs have come a long way since the desmo was developed in the 60s and 70s, and are winning races every single weekend. Why would you want a brake actuated suspension system ? Or z spokes? Or a genesis  5 valve? If it's good enough to win,it won't be the valve closing method.

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Broseph
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1/27/2024 9:53am Edited Date/Time 1/27/2024 9:57am
OldTech wrote:

Are we allowed to convert to valve springs?

Team Euro wrote:

Why?

OldTech wrote:
Honestly? Ease of service and simplicity. Springs have come a long way since the desmo was developed in the 60s and 70s, and are winning races...

Honestly? Ease of service and simplicity. Springs have come a long way since the desmo was developed in the 60s and 70s, and are winning races every single weekend. Why would you want a brake actuated suspension system ? Or z spokes? Or a genesis  5 valve? If it's good enough to win,it won't be the valve closing method.

It would also be fair to say desmo has come a long way since it was developed.

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Gravel
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1/27/2024 12:28pm
OldTech wrote:

Are we allowed to convert to valve springs?

Yes, simply purchase literally any other brand of motorcycle on the market!

Ducati is gonna Ducati, even in moto..

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#434
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1/28/2024 5:46am
#434 wrote:
This is what the desmodromic looks like: the pic is from a paper from 2007 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/MULTIBODY-ANALYSIS-OF-THE-DESMODROMIC-VALVE-TRAIN-Moreno-Mucchi/b6b34bc43aa7b0bcd5854071a1dd8e80aa53171b)

This is what the desmodromic looks like:

IMG 5492

the pic is from a paper from 2007 (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/MULTIBODY-ANALYSIS-OF-THE-DESMODR…)

I assume its automatic adjuster? that would be nice

Nope, there’s no auto adjust for a desmo valve train I‘m aware of. The adjuster sits in between the rocker arms (check the picture). 

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#434
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1/28/2024 12:38pm
   

IMG 5682 0
 

IMG 5677 1

IMG 5675

 

IMG 5678 1

That thing is pretty f..kin sweet!

What a difference in effort compared to the last new arrival to the mx market from Asia.. oh I mean England, sorry!

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soggy
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1/28/2024 3:28pm

What’s below the water pump?  Oil pump?

ADynes
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1/28/2024 6:04pm

Those sight glasses look awfully big and vulnerable. Wonder if they will stay 

1/28/2024 6:27pm Edited Date/Time 1/28/2024 6:57pm

Good to see Ducati using flanged hex bolts, sorry KTM and Stark, torx bolts don't belong on dirt bikes, they are unusable when they fill with dirt.

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1/29/2024 9:05am
soggy wrote:

Taking weight away from the axles won’t do anything for the center of gravity. 

I really don’t know how to say this other than saying this but, all this talk of this whole weight thing. Is non sense, have you...

I really don’t know how to say this other than saying this but, all this talk of this whole weight thing. Is non sense, have you seen how many championships and titles in on road racing they have since that valve-train was introduced? It speaks for itself, ole dirt bikin’s center of g spot ain’t ever gonna notice it’s even there.

It would be nice if you were right.   Its not the only thing that matters but mass and centre of mass still influence things. 

stremme12
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1/29/2024 10:20am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
From DC in Racerhead: "In 2025 Ducati plans on racing in MXGP (where works bikes and prototypes are allowed) and maybe even the Grand National Cross...

From DC in Racerhead:

"In 2025 Ducati plans on racing in MXGP (where works bikes and prototypes are allowed) and maybe even the Grand National Cross Country (GNCC). And then in 2026, after at least 400 Desmo 450 models are built and the brand is homologated with the AMA, then they will race in Monster Energy AMA Supercross and the AMA Pro Motocross Championship. They are looking for an existing team to partner with, hopefully on the East Coast, and while I have a few guesses who they may be talking to, Paolo would not confirm or deny anything."


They want to partner with an existing team that's preferably on the East Coast.

Any guesses? Phoenix? ClubMX?

Edit:

Who else is based on the East Coast?

Star 
FirePower
PRMX

Wild guess, ClubMX takes over Factory Yamaha, and Star becomes Factory Monster Energy Ducati. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think Webb is signed thru 2026 so not sure what clause a contract has for a team switching manufacturers in the middle of a riders contract. Would be interesting to know how that is written.

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