Can we make the jumps more challenging for Pro's!

reynardfan1
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10/10/2023 12:54pm
zippytech wrote:
Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every...

Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every jump. Shorten the runs, make the jumps longer, something.

Sacko wrote:
We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant...

We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant to cater to those who spend money to finance professionals like yourself.  Build the jumps like you are asking and that track will shut down fairly quickly since the Vet riders who spend their money in this sport are no longer showing up. 

I think he was talking about at the pro level. But

good points…

vets aren’t showing up and neither are beginners…so there is no gateway to the sport and early exits. All for the chase of Loretta Lynn’s nonsense. 
 

Local track in my area doesn’t even have a beginner class and the C class is the fastest lap times of the day…every time. 
 

the track has been created for the fast guys only. It’s barely rideable unless you are cool hucking 75 ft gaps 7 times a lap 

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zippytech
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10/10/2023 1:10pm

Yes, I am 100% talking about pro's.

mx317
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10/10/2023 1:20pm
zippytech wrote:

Yes, I am 100% talking about pro's.

It bleeds over. 

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10/10/2023 1:25pm
Outside of deliberately putting in obstacles to slow the riders down or making different options in rhythm lanes, there isn’t much that can be done. The...

Outside of deliberately putting in obstacles to slow the riders down or making different options in rhythm lanes, there isn’t much that can be done. The bikes and riders are just too good. The jumps you’re thinking of (i.e. 125s not being able to clear SX triples) were difficult because the bikes were slower and more difficult to ride perfectly. These guys can hit that same triple on a 250f in first gear out of the inside of a corner. Make that triple bigger and you use up a lot more floor space and lower lap times instead of making a technical rhythm lane that hopefully can provide options with different speeds while still maintaining a challenging enough track so the racing is decent. It doesn’t always work out that way unfortunately. 

Clearly you've never ridden a 250F. No one rides a 250f in first gear, its just too short. And certainly not jumping a Triple out of a corner in first gear, you'd run out of torque and speed. ^ This has to be a joke. 450's DO use first gear a lot out of corners for rhythm sections because the transmission is geared taller. But never a 250f. Find me an interview of a pro claiming 1st gear being used. I'll wait.

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LungButter
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10/10/2023 1:27pm
HonDawg17 wrote:
Clearly you've never ridden a 250F. No one rides a 250f in first gear, its just too short. And certainly not jumping a Triple out of...

Clearly you've never ridden a 250F. No one rides a 250f in first gear, its just too short. And certainly not jumping a Triple out of a corner in first gear, you'd run out of torque and speed. ^ This has to be a joke. 450's DO use first gear a lot out of corners for rhythm sections because the transmission is geared taller. But never a 250f. Find me an interview of a pro claiming 1st gear being used. I'll wait.

Tell us how many Factory 250Fs you've ridden.

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zippytech
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10/10/2023 1:42pm
zippytech wrote:

Yes, I am 100% talking about pro's.

mx317 wrote:

It bleeds over. 

I know that.

Sacko
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10/10/2023 1:56pm
zippytech wrote:
Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every...

Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every jump. Shorten the runs, make the jumps longer, something.

Sacko wrote:
We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant...

We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant to cater to those who spend money to finance professionals like yourself.  Build the jumps like you are asking and that track will shut down fairly quickly since the Vet riders who spend their money in this sport are no longer showing up. 

zippytech wrote:

Sorry, I should have mentioned I was talking about pros.  I get what you are saying.

Gotcha!  In that case, my 2 cents: The premier class should be on a 250f.  450's are just too much, especially for SX. 

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1
10/10/2023 3:16pm
Outside of deliberately putting in obstacles to slow the riders down or making different options in rhythm lanes, there isn’t much that can be done. The...

Outside of deliberately putting in obstacles to slow the riders down or making different options in rhythm lanes, there isn’t much that can be done. The bikes and riders are just too good. The jumps you’re thinking of (i.e. 125s not being able to clear SX triples) were difficult because the bikes were slower and more difficult to ride perfectly. These guys can hit that same triple on a 250f in first gear out of the inside of a corner. Make that triple bigger and you use up a lot more floor space and lower lap times instead of making a technical rhythm lane that hopefully can provide options with different speeds while still maintaining a challenging enough track so the racing is decent. It doesn’t always work out that way unfortunately. 

HonDawg17 wrote:
Clearly you've never ridden a 250F. No one rides a 250f in first gear, its just too short. And certainly not jumping a Triple out of...

Clearly you've never ridden a 250F. No one rides a 250f in first gear, its just too short. And certainly not jumping a Triple out of a corner in first gear, you'd run out of torque and speed. ^ This has to be a joke. 450's DO use first gear a lot out of corners for rhythm sections because the transmission is geared taller. But never a 250f. Find me an interview of a pro claiming 1st gear being used. I'll wait.

Semantics, my point being the bikes are fast. 
 

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10/10/2023 6:12pm

Steeper but slower speed jumps seemed to be much more popular back in the day, everything now seems pretty long and low style besides the occasional over under. 

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yak651
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10/10/2023 6:23pm
zippytech wrote:
Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a...

Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a lot of the jumps were right out of a turn, if not part of the turn.

LungButter wrote:

So you think the jumps were more challenging in the 80s and 90s than they are today?

Jumps were way peakier then. Now they make everything flowy to give the illusion of speed on tv. There’s no reason not to steeper and shorten the run up to jumps to slow the tracks down and make them more technical 

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yak651
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10/10/2023 6:25pm
Sacko wrote:
We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant...

We've already got people not making it home from a day at the track.  If you're that good go race outdoors.  Local public tracks are meant to cater to those who spend money to finance professionals like yourself.  Build the jumps like you are asking and that track will shut down fairly quickly since the Vet riders who spend their money in this sport are no longer showing up. 

zippytech wrote:

Sorry, I should have mentioned I was talking about pros.  I get what you are saying.

Sacko wrote:

Gotcha!  In that case, my 2 cents: The premier class should be on a 250f.  450's are just too much, especially for SX. 

This here. 250 mods for the premier class and 250 stock (except suspension) for the regional entry class. And while you are at it add a salary cap for the regional series riders

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10/10/2023 7:12pm Edited Date/Time 10/10/2023 7:15pm
zippytech wrote:

Was everyone all busted up in the 80s and 90s? 

Some were busted up permanently...

image-20231011131230-1

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Phillip_Lamb
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10/10/2023 10:33pm
zippytech wrote:
Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every...

Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every jump. Shorten the runs, make the jumps longer, something.

this has been an issue for years. If you make them too difficult, only 1-3 guys are doing it and they seperate a lot from the pack. or its such a gnarly jump the window for hitting it clean is super dangerous, Cole seely destroyed himself trying to hit a quad others were doing. 

4 strokes, particularly 450's have so much torque and grip compared to 250 (4 stroke and 2 stroke) there isnt much they can do without endagering riders excessively

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Radical
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10/10/2023 10:47pm
zippytech wrote:

I know that, maybe we need to get back to the slower bikes where it was more difficult.

LungButter wrote:
100% But hey, there are plenty of dudes here that think they need a 450 to compete in a Vet class so I don't think the...

100%

But hey, there are plenty of dudes here that think they need a 450 to compete in a Vet class so I don't think the kitty cat is going back into the bag.

It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster.

All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with a common set of rules.

In Nascar and Indy, when the speeds get out of hand, they lower the maximum displacement.

In MX, we just keep making bikes faster, and injuries keep getting worse.

I'm not saying that the pros can't handle the power of a 450.  What they do is incredible.

But, the faster you're going when you crash, the more intense the injuries.

I've proposed a plan to accomplish this in the past.  I'm more than glad to help make the transition smooth.

And it's actually good for manufacturers, because they'll sell a lot of new bikes, and upgrades.

Let's do it!

 

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devotid
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10/10/2023 11:17pm

Imagine being a pro that is already butt puckering Larocco's leap on a 250 reading this title. haha.

What about more off camber turns? Double apex (wide U shaped) corners? Odd spaced whoops? Option lanes? I personally like watching the pros adjust to a new obstacle throughout a race weekend.

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sumdood
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10/10/2023 11:21pm
Radical wrote:
It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster. All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with...

It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster.

All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with a common set of rules.

In Nascar and Indy, when the speeds get out of hand, they lower the maximum displacement.

In MX, we just keep making bikes faster, and injuries keep getting worse.

I'm not saying that the pros can't handle the power of a 450.  What they do is incredible.

But, the faster you're going when you crash, the more intense the injuries.

I've proposed a plan to accomplish this in the past.  I'm more than glad to help make the transition smooth.

And it's actually good for manufacturers, because they'll sell a lot of new bikes, and upgrades.

Let's do it!

 

"We need to make the bikes slower" (ie: safer)     Meanwhile.......

The new Stark Varg has 80 HP and enough ground grabbing torque to launch a 75' triple from almost a dead standstill.  

If guys are wadding it up because 450's  are "too fast"  Wait till those things are everywhere. 

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Richy
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10/10/2023 11:26pm
Radical wrote:
It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster. All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with...

It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster.

All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with a common set of rules.

In Nascar and Indy, when the speeds get out of hand, they lower the maximum displacement.

In MX, we just keep making bikes faster, and injuries keep getting worse.

I'm not saying that the pros can't handle the power of a 450.  What they do is incredible.

But, the faster you're going when you crash, the more intense the injuries.

I've proposed a plan to accomplish this in the past.  I'm more than glad to help make the transition smooth.

And it's actually good for manufacturers, because they'll sell a lot of new bikes, and upgrades.

Let's do it!

 

That's fair, look how often other disciplines like NASCAR, Indycar, F1, MotoGP have chopped and changed displacement or entire Engine layout.

I appreciate the manufacturers in motocross are more invested in tooling etc and the end goal is production motorcycle sales which differs from the above disciplines these days (excluding motoGP maybe but of course they aren't selling those bikes to normal dudes).

I often wonder how things would have gone if Luongo/KTM had pulled off the 250 and 350 class move successfully. Or if we'd retained a true 125 class, seeing the Superminis or even 65's have good racing at the SMX rounds certainly shows 125 racing in modern supercross would be viable and good fun, but of course the limited manufacturers offering them rules this out sadly.

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Radical
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10/11/2023 1:19am
Radical wrote:
It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster. All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with...

It will have to eventually.  We cannot continue to make the bikes faster.

All other motorsports manage the maximum speed, while allowing manufacturers to innovate with a common set of rules.

In Nascar and Indy, when the speeds get out of hand, they lower the maximum displacement.

In MX, we just keep making bikes faster, and injuries keep getting worse.

I'm not saying that the pros can't handle the power of a 450.  What they do is incredible.

But, the faster you're going when you crash, the more intense the injuries.

I've proposed a plan to accomplish this in the past.  I'm more than glad to help make the transition smooth.

And it's actually good for manufacturers, because they'll sell a lot of new bikes, and upgrades.

Let's do it!

 

Richy wrote:
That's fair, look how often other disciplines like NASCAR, Indycar, F1, MotoGP have chopped and changed displacement or entire Engine layout. I appreciate the manufacturers in...

That's fair, look how often other disciplines like NASCAR, Indycar, F1, MotoGP have chopped and changed displacement or entire Engine layout.

I appreciate the manufacturers in motocross are more invested in tooling etc and the end goal is production motorcycle sales which differs from the above disciplines these days (excluding motoGP maybe but of course they aren't selling those bikes to normal dudes).

I often wonder how things would have gone if Luongo/KTM had pulled off the 250 and 350 class move successfully. Or if we'd retained a true 125 class, seeing the Superminis or even 65's have good racing at the SMX rounds certainly shows 125 racing in modern supercross would be viable and good fun, but of course the limited manufacturers offering them rules this out sadly.

I'm pretty sure Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki still know how to make 2 strokes, but they could also compete with lower displacement 4 strokes that today match the power of the 125 and 250 2 strokes.

I'm not saying we have to go back to 2 strokes completely, but the power of the 125 and 250 2 strokes are a good measure of where HP should be for the 2 classes.  As technology improves, that may need to be reduced as well down the road, but it's probably about right for today.

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Bill_Carroll
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10/11/2023 1:42am

OP wants to make it a video game

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OT
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10/11/2023 3:00am

What about bonus points awarded for tricks? 25 points for moto win, + 5 points for a Nac Nac on Larocco's Leap 

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Richy
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10/11/2023 3:25am Edited Date/Time 10/11/2023 3:26am
Radical wrote:
I'm pretty sure Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki still know how to make 2 strokes, but they could also compete with lower displacement 4 strokes that today...

I'm pretty sure Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki still know how to make 2 strokes, but they could also compete with lower displacement 4 strokes that today match the power of the 125 and 250 2 strokes.

I'm not saying we have to go back to 2 strokes completely, but the power of the 125 and 250 2 strokes are a good measure of where HP should be for the 2 classes.  As technology improves, that may need to be reduced as well down the road, but it's probably about right for today.

I agree totally they know how to make them, I would even agree they could still make them without huge investment (it's not like they typically scrap the old moulds and casts is it).

Knowing how or being able to doesn't mean they would start making them again though, all these years they've declined to reproduce them, even when KTM and Yam sell plenty, and now that we're this late in the conventional ICE engine time period... Well, I'd love to see it happen, but I can't see it happening.

Plus Honda would throw a fit and the governing bodies would basically be admitting they got it wrong 😂

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Phil109
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10/11/2023 5:28am

We are all about to be riding electric bikes anyway. So this whole 450 is to much bine debate won’t even matter within the time manufacturers could/would do anything about it. Honda threw its hat in the ring. It’s all downhill now. 

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mimafia
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10/11/2023 6:13am
zippytech wrote:
Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a...

Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a lot of the jumps were right out of a turn, if not part of the turn.

Four strokes. I remember the first lap I did on my first 250f after upgrading from a 125, which was actually a 144. There was a double right out of a corner and I was laughing under my helmet after realizing how easy it was compared to the 125. I remember thinking wow this is like cheating. 

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joshd
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10/11/2023 6:35am
Phil109 wrote:
We are all about to be riding electric bikes anyway. So this whole 450 is to much bine debate won’t even matter within the time manufacturers...

We are all about to be riding electric bikes anyway. So this whole 450 is to much bine debate won’t even matter within the time manufacturers could/would do anything about it. Honda threw its hat in the ring. It’s all downhill now. 

If only we had a sanctioning body that could help with this. 

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10/11/2023 6:39am
zippytech wrote:
Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every...

Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every jump. Shorten the runs, make the jumps longer, something.

Nobody rides 125s or 250ts anymore. 
 

 Do you really want to see a 450 hitting the track once the whole back straight? 

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KHNC
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10/11/2023 6:56am
zippytech wrote:
Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a...

Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a lot of the jumps were right out of a turn, if not part of the turn.

LungButter wrote:

So you think the jumps were more challenging in the 80s and 90s than they are today?

Fuck yeah they were! In the 90's , the MX tracks all morphed into SX tracks. Triples, huge gap doubles, lots of whoops. Shit was insane and if you werent a great rider , you were going down at least once a moto somewhere. 

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KHNC
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10/11/2023 6:59am
zippytech wrote:
Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a...

Just seams like in the late 80's, 90's riders would have to fight to get the right drive, traction and guts to jump stuff. And a lot of the jumps were right out of a turn, if not part of the turn.

mimafia wrote:
Four strokes. I remember the first lap I did on my first 250f after upgrading from a 125, which was actually a 144. There was a...

Four strokes. I remember the first lap I did on my first 250f after upgrading from a 125, which was actually a 144. There was a double right out of a corner and I was laughing under my helmet after realizing how easy it was compared to the 125. I remember thinking wow this is like cheating. 

Damn right, I remember a huge double out of a right hander after a long downhill start at Wilkes Co Mx in NC , in the 90's. I had to hit that one in 1st pinned on a 125 and shift into 2nd mid air. No way you could land it in first or you were going over the bars. Only way to clear that thing. My 250 2T would launch it easy in 2nd and 250F's would clear in 2nd or 3rd when they came around. 

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APLMAN99
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10/11/2023 7:09am
zippytech wrote:
Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every...

Can we bring back the jumps that took everything a rider and bike could do to make the jump? I am tired of the scrubbing every jump. Shorten the runs, make the jumps longer, something.

I’d be okay if all the jumps were actually cut down. But make sure that there are massive uphills and downhills and most of the corners are off camber. That’d make the racing a lot better in my opinion. 

Also, seed all the National tracks with grass at least 60 days before the National and no events there during that time!  Yes, I know that is impossible because the track owners would go broke but it’d sure be awesome if they could make it work!
 

 

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MPJC
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10/11/2023 9:45am

Size of the jumps seems to me much less important than margin for error and consequences for missing. You can have big jumps with fairly forgiving landings and relatively tame looking jumps with severe consequences for missing. Regarding the latter, the sections that look scariest to me are rhythm sections immediately after the first turn when everyone is bunched up and going down means almost certainly getting landed on. 

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