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Hi John, I don't know him personally but a friend of mine does.
You must be a VERY fast, world-class road racer to have raced with Andrew. I am envious of your skills and your having raced Suzuka 8 Hour, what an experience that must have been!
Not allowed in AMA racing.
My only experience with CF versus aluminum is riding the specialized tarmac and allez. I actually prefer the feedback and stiffness of the allez (the aluminum frame). The carbon feels dead and feels like it steals power under hard acceleration. specialized claims they create a nice feeling frame with geometry, thickness variance, and welds. The Allez is the bike of choice for crits, where crashes are very common.
Bringing that to MX, sure, a CF frame will allow you to do some cool stuff, but you can also probably get close with aluminum, and it’s way more durable.
That CF Ducati was not successful. I read that it took much longer to make a different frame in CF than aluminum so changes came about more slowly.
The Shop
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Had to add a picture of what most people call the sexiest gp bike ever the cagiva 500 factory racer 593 was full carbon 500 2 stroke
One of if not the, best-looking bike ever!
From memory, they had flashes of brilliance with Lawson and Kocsinsky but not enough money/team to develop it as fast as the Japanese did.
First of all, a CF frame will always take longer and cost more money to make than a metal frame because you have to manufacture a mold and do the the whole CF layup by hand.
The Ducati concept was very different to KTM’s concept. Their frame was tiny and didn’t extend down to the swingarm or shock tower. The central part of the frame was the engine and CF frame bit was basically the connection from cylinder heads to the tripple clamps. KTM‘s frame resembles more a traditional setup where the engine is just a partly stressed member of the whole package.
So there’s the question is if Ducati‘s CF frame was the problem or if the whole concept of the mini frame didn’t work for MotoGP.
Here‘s an interesting article from Mat Oxley about the history of CF-frames in road racing, what’s going on at the moment and their benefits:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/why-is-motogp-going-carbon-fibre-crazy/
Didn't Teka suzuki have carbon framed RMZ250 in the 2000s? Seem to remember seeing a picture of it around the time Roczen went pro.
The DH mountain bike world is moving to carbon tubes + titanium 3D printed lugs rather than full carbon frames. The Atherton bike was first and it got a bit sneered at at first, but they're all rushing down that route now. No need for expensive molds and they can be quickly and easily tweaked by just re-making the lugs instead of new molds every time, and flex can be built-in/taken out just by changing the tubes. A trellis style frame made this way would make a lot of sense.
Pretty sure this was just a vinyl wrap. There's no way you'd make a carbon frame strong enough using the same geometry/dimensions as the aluminum frame.
It was a full carbon frame prototype built by CRM. They called it the YCF-250. Sophia Paull raced it in WMX:
They also did an RMZ450 (SCF-450):
http://crmcompositi.com/media/
Like you said, that’s just for fast, low volume production. They‘re actually given away the real benefit of being able to tune the longitudinal and torsional rigidity separately. The beauty of the material lies in anisotropic characteristicS. And so no, a trellis style CF frame wouldn’t make sense.
Wait CF is no good in compression? Why would they use it for cut rate deep dive submarines then?
Vins Duecinquanta Carbon Fibre Monocoque Chassis / and CF Girder / Fior Fork :
Pit Row
Vins ( vinsmotor.com ) make the 250 / 288cc V Twin EFI engine - that Langen (Brits) use also - as well as the chassis. You can buy the Road Version, and Track day version. They've even got an 'E" version (Quelle Horreur ! , I hear from some) of the bike coming .
Full Bike picture:
I've been trying to find pictures of the Steve Roberts (another Dastardly Fuggin Kiwi ! - though originally a Bloody Pom ) 'Plastic Fantastic' - a CF / Kevlar Monocoque Chassis'd Suzuki GS100 engined bike , raced by Dave Hiscock, Robert Holden, and others. Prior to that, he'd made a pressed / hand beaten Aluminium Monocoqued Suzuki 1000 in 1982 , that the 'Plastic Fantastic' followed the design from. I'll find them eventually, and put them up - but, perhaps a Horrible Kiwi here may be able to put some pictures up of Steve's bikes
For a bunch of Scoundrels, Cads and Miscreants, those Horrid Kiwis, sure do have some great Engineers / Builders / Innovators. They're a weird and wonderful , but rather 'rat baggish' mob, that's for sure!
Because they were ignorant and didn't trust or want to pay for real engineers!
Pictures of Steve Roberts Monocoque Suzukis .
The Silver one is the beaten Aluminium 82 model, the White and Yellow one is the 'Plastic Fantastic' - not all 'Plastic' - see the Swingarm Plate / Hanger(s). The other picture is a build up of the Aluminium bike, Steve to the Left, Dave Hiscock to the right - young fella in the middle, is listed as Ralph. Sorry, 3 posts, as I find it very difficult to post multiple pictures now :
That looks like a large micrometer in the background!
You've discovered a way to show the Mythic, Glorious, Magnificent 'Royal Ranga Hallo', that we Rangas have.
You will now be hunted down and punished, for revealing a Ranga Secret to the general / low life public!
Wheeling machine?
English (yes, I'm being pedantic prick) Wheel probably, knowing Steve Roberts background and the things he made. And, a Fuggin' BIG one at that. He worked at, I think, Rolls Royce before he went to Un Zud, and taught various forms of Metal Work and Engineering, for many years at TAFEs, Uni's, Colleges etc.
I've come close to getting one a few times, but I really didn't enjoy making MC Fuel tanks, the times I've made them. Though, an English Wheel would make it far easier. Far easier than the Mallets / Hammers and Leather bags / Tree Trunks etc I used / rigged up, that's for sure. I may one day get one, I suppose. But it will be an old, beautiful Brit (probably) made one, rather than the crap that you can get easily. I need to start haunting the Equipment and Machinery Auctions again.
PS:
ksithumper - Have you got a Marty Moates type one, or perhaps, one of those lovely Mk2 (?) Faber frames? I think they make replica Mk1s, as well as their own 'Mk2' type:
Bear, see DM.
I watched a documentary about the Britten, that bike was something special. Would have been nice to see it make it farther.
Ignoring the amount of work required to make it in the first place, keeping on top of the integrity of the Carbon Fibre is a huge amount of time and effort that requires a lot of investment in staff and equipment.
And as has been said, its been done, many many times before.
Post a reply to: KTM tests a Carbon-Fiber Chassis in MotoGP