Shootouts Are Too Subjective

CPan
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5/6/2023 2:01pm

Agreed. I can’t stand when a bike gets down voted based on stock grips. Like who’s buying a brand new 450 and not putting bars, grips, and pegs on it at a minimum? 

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sandtrack315
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5/6/2023 2:05pm

I just hate the complaints about grips.

The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and run T4, for the same price as buying an Austrian bike, and you’re likely going to like it more than an Austrian bike. 

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captmoto
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5/6/2023 2:35pm
I would like to see a shootout that’s done on the east cost or Midwest. Where the track is beat up and rutted. Opinions on bikes...

I would like to see a shootout that’s done on the east cost or Midwest. Where the track is beat up and rutted. Opinions on bikes based off of Highway like conditions do nothing for people who ride and race places similar to Ironman. Or amateur days after a national. 

Maybe if someone could pay the manufacturers to ship the bikes to the east coast or midwest, along with the support crews that are at the shootouts for technical assistance, it could happen.

Where do you get highway like comditions?

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wwdiii
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5/6/2023 2:37pm

I like to read the shootouts.  I think there is so good information to be had.  With that said information needs to be checked against other tests etc and normalize in your mind.  For instance, info I gleaned in the 23 250 shoot seemed accurate for the 23 CRF250R I bought.  But I didn’t buy a Honda cause I thought it was the best for me.  I bought it cause I couldn’t find a 23 Yamaha on a dealer floor.   I think shootouts in this day and time are not the end all be all, but still good info and better than none at all.

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The Shop

Moto-Dude
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5/7/2023 6:22am

Shootouts exist to sell ads, writers get fed by capturing eyeballs. 

Lillefty27
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5/8/2023 5:58am
spacecat wrote:

I'm more interested in the long term reliability of a bike rather than outright speed and lap times.

Agreed. Reliability and comfort. If I feel confident and the bike won't give me headaches as it ages, I'm in.

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wrc777
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5/8/2023 6:55am
spacecat wrote:

I'm more interested in the long term reliability of a bike rather than outright speed and lap times.

Lillefty27 wrote:

Agreed. Reliability and comfort. If I feel confident and the bike won't give me headaches as it ages, I'm in.

Unfortunately you will never get shoot outs like that because it takes too long. 

captmoto
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5/8/2023 8:32am
spacecat wrote:

I'm more interested in the long term reliability of a bike rather than outright speed and lap times.

Lillefty27 wrote:

Agreed. Reliability and comfort. If I feel confident and the bike won't give me headaches as it ages, I'm in.

wrc777 wrote:

Unfortunately you will never get shoot outs like that because it takes too long. 

People like to shit on MXA but their shootouts usually come after everybody elses for a reason. They actually race their bikes with multiple riders. That should count for something as far as durability testing. Most of these bikes are pretty bulletproof though. 

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RichieW13
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5/8/2023 9:23am

Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy a bike, I'd love to have the chance to spend like $200 and get to ride all of the bikes I am considering buying.

1
AH387
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5/8/2023 10:24am Edited Date/Time 5/8/2023 5:41pm

Shootouts are just for entertainment, for me. But the best content lately has been Vital and Swap. Reason being, they give a very good breakdown of each rider and their impression on each bike, to the best of their abilities. I like that better than the actual rankings. I think that stuff can be helpful in deciding on what works best for you. Like how the Husky is a bit mellow and it hurts the shootouts results in most shootouts, but that might be perfect for many consumers (especially with how fast 450s are.)

MXA I hate to say but I think they are actually kind of bad. To me, I read it and watch the videos and even if it's Josh or whoever talking, it just sounds like they are repeating the same speak that Jodie has been saying forever. Almost like it's his opinion, at the end of the day. I never really hear opinions of the actually testers or see any real data. They just give their winners. And their results are usually quite a bit different from other media or even my own opinions. It's pretty hard to take them serious when they haven't given the YZ250F a win since '14 when it has won head and shoulders at every other media outlet (that's just 1 example.) Basically I think they pick and choose how to angle their winners and it is annoying.

Anyways, I think where you live, the terrain etc all plays a role. Also, some bikes like the Honda seem to be really on when you get the set-up right but then can be pretty off when you dont. And other bikes aren't as sensitive. So think of how many variables are just in that, for a consumer. Are you a set-it and forget it guy? Do you ride multiple tracks with different dirt, layouts etc or mainly ride at the same few spots. It would be very hard for a shootout to replicate that stuff for every person's situation. 

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mxb2
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5/8/2023 10:44am
RichieW13 wrote:
Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy...

Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy a bike, I'd love to have the chance to spend like $200 and get to ride all of the bikes I am considering buying.

Hit up the local track,find the brands to ride,offer the owner $$ to spin 4-5 laps.
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Dirt.Squirt
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5/8/2023 10:55am
Rotaholic wrote:

Get the rider triangle/cockpit that suits your body the best, everything else can be changed.

 

Bingo!

CarlinoJoeVideo
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5/8/2023 5:35pm
RichieW13 wrote:
Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy...

Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy a bike, I'd love to have the chance to spend like $200 and get to ride all of the bikes I am considering buying.

I crunched the numbers once and it never really penciled out to be worth the time, unless parts were free and/or bikes were at dealer cost. But even after everything, it was questionable as a business.

From a stand point of testing bikes it would be amazing. Personally I can tell which bike I’m most comfortable on right away.

the best bet is doing a day with one of the MX vacation crews in So Cal that have a stable of different bikes. 

blaze 57
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5/8/2023 6:35pm
Here's my issue with most shootouts. At the end of the video/article they say, " At the end of the day, these are just our opinions...

max mande m Vital Mx 450 Shootout 007 81375.jpg?VersionId=7RT71bZN0IKVs58.hYTdz

Here's my issue with most shootouts. At the end of the video/article they say, " At the end of the day, these are just our opinions and if could be different for you, so go ride them all and see." 

Welp, that sentence kind of just throws the whole thing out the window. Because the ratings are so subjective based on the 5 or so guys that ride the bike, we don't know anything other than some opinions. 

What I would love to see and what would completely differentiate this test from any other is simple. Lap times.

Get 2 or 3 riders from each class. Pro, intermediate, novice etc.. and get lap time comparisons. 

I want to know which bike gets what type of rider from A-B the fastest. Sure, we can add all the ancillary data as well about the bikes and opinions, but because its so subjective, it really doesn't mean anything to the viewer/reader. 

We can't try the bikes out, but we can get hard data about which ones can move us across the track the fastest. 

The closest thing I have seen to this was a video from Jeff Walker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlFo0qNeadw

Even though Honda finished 4th that year in the shootout, he was 1-3 seconds faster on that bike than any other at a pro level. I think that kind of information is far more valuable than a bunch of opinions. 

Let the data do the talking then tell us about the pros & cons of each bike.

All I'm saying is to keep the opinions in there, BUT also add some data as well. The comparisons are too one sided to really have any relevance. 

 

What's nice about belonging to the Old Timers club we develop so much close friendship and camaraderie with each other over the yrs and when play days etc come along we get to test each other bikes and suspension set-ups etc. Heck I've ridden two strokes, four strokes about every brand in a single day. Bike breaks at a race there is always a bike to ride. best group of guys you could ever meet.

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kakarot
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Citrus Heights, CA, USA
5/9/2023 8:28pm
Here's my issue with most shootouts. At the end of the video/article they say, " At the end of the day, these are just our opinions...

max mande m Vital Mx 450 Shootout 007 81375.jpg?VersionId=7RT71bZN0IKVs58.hYTdz

Here's my issue with most shootouts. At the end of the video/article they say, " At the end of the day, these are just our opinions and if could be different for you, so go ride them all and see." 

Welp, that sentence kind of just throws the whole thing out the window. Because the ratings are so subjective based on the 5 or so guys that ride the bike, we don't know anything other than some opinions. 

What I would love to see and what would completely differentiate this test from any other is simple. Lap times.

Get 2 or 3 riders from each class. Pro, intermediate, novice etc.. and get lap time comparisons. 

I want to know which bike gets what type of rider from A-B the fastest. Sure, we can add all the ancillary data as well about the bikes and opinions, but because its so subjective, it really doesn't mean anything to the viewer/reader. 

We can't try the bikes out, but we can get hard data about which ones can move us across the track the fastest. 

The closest thing I have seen to this was a video from Jeff Walker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlFo0qNeadw

Even though Honda finished 4th that year in the shootout, he was 1-3 seconds faster on that bike than any other at a pro level. I think that kind of information is far more valuable than a bunch of opinions. 

Let the data do the talking then tell us about the pros & cons of each bike.

All I'm saying is to keep the opinions in there, BUT also add some data as well. The comparisons are too one sided to really have any relevance. 

 

Michael tried that once and got accused of being on drugs by his peers

1
burn1986
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5/9/2023 8:36pm Edited Date/Time 5/10/2023 1:43am

Fwiw, No shootouts from any main MX publication have ever included a full 250 shootout, with 2-strokes and 4-strokes. 
 

Even so, I agree with the OP on the lap time test 

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5/10/2023 2:41pm
RichieW13 wrote:
Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy...

Has anybody ever created a business where you can go and test ride all the bikes in a single day?  If I was looking to buy a bike, I'd love to have the chance to spend like $200 and get to ride all of the bikes I am considering buying.

Like a fitting for golf clubs. Not gonna lie, I have thought about this a lot. This would be an amazing business.

1
5/10/2023 7:26pm
You have to wonder if there’s any point in them? Given that we’ll all buy a bike, then tune suspension, then buy a pipe/ECU/cams/head work etc...

You have to wonder if there’s any point in them?

Given that we’ll all buy a bike, then tune suspension, then buy a pipe/ECU/cams/head work etc etc etc.. 

If we look at what Roczen & HEP has achieved this year on the ‘worst’ bike of the bunch, and understand that it’s all relative- we are all making our own mods to tune them in to suit us. 
we could all buy whichever colour we fancy and make our mods to suit us accordingly.

I think it is more than just “tuning to suit.”

The manufacturer gives you a product, usually built to a price point, that usually equals the base acceptable product that you will accept, to maximize their and the dealer’s profit. 
 

An owner that wants something more will have to improve all aspects of the bikes performance, and then tune to their needs, at the owners expense. 
 

I think it would be useful to know which bikes offer the best starting position to do that and what should be addressed on that bike either by improving immediately or by the biggest impact to performance. 

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brimx153
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5/10/2023 7:37pm

Imo the biggest thing is how you like the weight balance of the bike . If you like a lighter front wheel more balanced bike . Or if you like a heavy front end feel .  You can fix so much of everything else . But if u hate a quick steering heavy front wheel feel ,eg,  Suzuki/honda it's very hard to fix it . You can change clamps , linkage and still not be happy.   On the other hand if u love that feel . You might be better off on a Suzuki than the latest and greatest. It's easy fix power and suspension . Frame balance is the most important thing imo 

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kiwifan
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5/10/2023 7:43pm
I just hate the complaints about grips. The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and...

I just hate the complaints about grips.

The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and run T4, for the same price as buying an Austrian bike, and you’re likely going to like it more than an Austrian bike. 

Spot on

5/11/2023 11:08am
burn1986 wrote:
Fwiw, No shootouts from any main MX publication have ever included a full 250 shootout, with 2-strokes and 4-strokes.    Even so, I agree with the...

Fwiw, No shootouts from any main MX publication have ever included a full 250 shootout, with 2-strokes and 4-strokes. 
 

Even so, I agree with the OP on the lap time test 

I wonder if it is a liability issue. Test a 2 stroke and swap to a 4 stroke.  Make a mistake thinking the 4 stroke will track like a 2 stroke and… crash. 

3
hititpind
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5/11/2023 12:03pm Edited Date/Time 5/11/2023 12:04pm
CPan wrote:
Agreed. I can’t stand when a bike gets down voted based on stock grips. Like who’s buying a brand new 450 and not putting bars, grips...

Agreed. I can’t stand when a bike gets down voted based on stock grips. Like who’s buying a brand new 450 and not putting bars, grips, and pegs on it at a minimum? 

...until you have to remove the stock KX grips. For each hour spent, it loses a spot in the standings. It's the only way to get them to stop.

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MotoMan12345
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5/11/2023 9:57pm

Lap time thing is BS. I feel the most comfy on a Honda or Suzuki. I feel like shit on a Yamaha. Never ridden a kawi..absolutely hate the KTMs. I really only listen to Keefer when it comes to bike testing. Not that I do anything to my bikes to begin with. I’ll be red til I die. But keefer seems like the most knowledgeable

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hbdesigns913
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5/12/2023 5:32am
captmoto wrote:
Maybe if someone could pay the manufacturers to ship the bikes to the east coast or midwest, along with the support crews that are at the...

Maybe if someone could pay the manufacturers to ship the bikes to the east coast or midwest, along with the support crews that are at the shootouts for technical assistance, it could happen.

Where do you get highway like comditions?

Just referring to test I have seen in the past at milestone or possibly Pala where the track appeared to be really hard packed and smooth in comparison. Watching the Pala test from a few weeks back with Anderson made me think, what are they testing? The track I personally rode that weekend was much rougher. Just made me scratch my head a little??

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Rad76
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5/12/2023 6:41am

Shootouts are subjective by nature... That's why in our mag/wesite in France, there are no rankings. We try our best to really give the proper and own feel of each bike, and then it's up to the readers to figure out what they want. Ranking the bikes is stupid, if you ask me. It'a a one (or two, let's say) day truth, by maybe five people with different styles, weight and so on. This year, French rider Romain Pape was there to help us, and you know what ? We did not agree on everything, far from that. Jus because he's a lot slimer than but taller than i am, and 10 seconds a lap faster. We need to give readers infos on what the bikes do good or bad, not telling them what to buy. 

 

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zookrider62!
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5/12/2023 6:56am
I just hate the complaints about grips. The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and...

I just hate the complaints about grips.

The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and run T4, for the same price as buying an Austrian bike, and you’re likely going to like it more than an Austrian bike. 

What about a shootout where all of the bikes are modded out to be the same price as the highest price stock bike

Husqvarna | MSRP $11,649 - no mods

KTM | MSRP $10,899 +$750 Mods

Gas Gas | MSRP $10,199 +$1,450 Mods

Honda | MSRP $9,999 +$1,650 Mods

Yamaha | MSRP $9,899 +$1,750 Mods

Kawasaki | MSRP $9,599 +$2,050 Mods

Suzuki | MSRP $8,999  +$2,650 Mods

 



 

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sandtrack315
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Philadelphia, PA, USA
5/12/2023 2:11pm
I just hate the complaints about grips. The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and...

I just hate the complaints about grips.

The Honda 250/450 doesn’t do great in the shootouts, but you can get the suspension dialed, a vortex, and run T4, for the same price as buying an Austrian bike, and you’re likely going to like it more than an Austrian bike. 

What about a shootout where all of the bikes are modded out to be the same price as the highest price stock bike Husqvarna | MSRP...

What about a shootout where all of the bikes are modded out to be the same price as the highest price stock bike

Husqvarna | MSRP $11,649 - no mods

KTM | MSRP $10,899 +$750 Mods

Gas Gas | MSRP $10,199 +$1,450 Mods

Honda | MSRP $9,999 +$1,650 Mods

Yamaha | MSRP $9,899 +$1,750 Mods

Kawasaki | MSRP $9,599 +$2,050 Mods

Suzuki | MSRP $8,999  +$2,650 Mods

 



 

Keefer was thinking about doing this. 

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5/12/2023 2:47pm

I only care about bold new graphics.

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RCMXracing
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5/12/2023 3:05pm

Nowadays it’s not what the best bike is, it’s what’s best for you… maybe 1 tird in the punchbowl, but they’re all so good. And yeah throw mods in there, boom, new equation.

Also MXA goes to many tracks and they race these bikes. Jumping on a bike one day at one track doesn’t give the whole picture.

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