How to get people out of C class?

Landonious217 11/19/2022 3:23pm
11/19/2022 3:23pm
Why did it change from:

Pro
Expert
Intermediate
Novice
Beginner

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yak651
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yak651 11/19/2022 3:29pm
11/19/2022 3:29pm
MX Dad #27 wrote:
*No Loretta Lynn's "C" classes, period. *No "C" class contingency, period. *No local "C" class Champions. *No "C" classes on amateur day at nationals. *No "C"...
*No Loretta Lynn's "C" classes, period.
*No "C" class contingency, period.
*No local "C" class Champions.
*No "C" classes on amateur day at nationals.
*No "C" classes at any amateur national.
*Strict "point out" or "time out" rules.
*As the "C" class is usually the largest, have a "Win one get moved up" rule.

These things will never happen, but you asked "How to get people out of the "C" class".
MX Sports just had a heart attack thinking of the money they would lose out on with this plan!
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TK40_FC
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TK40_FC 11/19/2022 3:30pm
11/19/2022 3:30pm
Kinda always thought they should just call them "beginner" , "intermediate" and "expert" rather than A,B,C. No one who isn't a beginner would like saying they finished well in the beginner class year after year.
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OleTex
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OleTex 11/19/2022 3:42pm
11/19/2022 3:42pm
Landonious217 wrote:
Why did it change from:

Pro
Expert
Intermediate
Novice
Beginner

Damn good question. That’s how it used to be. Made sense.

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bh
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bh 11/19/2022 3:46pm
11/19/2022 3:46pm
Eliminate Loretta’s C class and Prohibit Factory support in the B class for these nationals kids.

I think it’s nonsense to have factory supported B class kids who can qualify for a national till that changes nothing will change at the local level.
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SLAPAHO
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SLAPAHO 11/19/2022 3:48pm
11/19/2022 3:48pm
SoCalMX70 wrote:
With OTHG (a 30+ vet racing club), we have an advancement points system. Additionally, part of our Race Director's responsibilities include making sure folks are in...
With OTHG (a 30+ vet racing club), we have an advancement points system. Additionally, part of our Race Director's responsibilities include making sure folks are in the right class. People are bumped well ahead of pointing out if they are winning by massive margins.

A brand new member's first 2 races are considered "evaluation". They are watched closely and placed in the appropriate class going forward.

We even monitor non-members who occasionally show up. This is probably the hardest issue to deal with, but thanks to our Race Director's hard work, 2022 was probably our best year as far as keeping sandbaggers ("trophy chasers" as we sometimes call them) from ruining what would otherwise be great competitive racing.

With all that said, it is never perfect. There are a few weird people out there that like to game the system as much as possible. I've seen guys blitz a few laps to a massive lead, look around, then slow down accordingly. Then there's guys that want to do a "re-evaluation", where we allow 4 races to reclassify them, but this is typically reserved to folks who have been out awhile due to injury. Or, they want to stay at their skill level then move down an age group or 2... It's always something! However, we do our best to stick to our well laid out rules and be even handed in those decisions.

I'll simply never understand the mentality of sandbaggers. How is one "proud" of racing below their skill? I could never get a sense of accomplishment from that. I bumped myself out of Novice at the beginning of the year after winning my first OTHG National event. I was done! I finished in the back of intermediate the rest of the year and I'm 100% good with it... I'll get faster (well, once my knee is healed...).
Yeah, these guys don’t fuck around. I signed up in the 45 intermediate class my first time with them like 10 years ago. I pulled a holeshot and ended up 3rd in the first moto. They came to my pit between motos and said “congratulations, you’re a 45 expert from now on 🤷‍♂️. And don’t get me wrong, 20 minute moto and my tongue was in the spokes. I don’t think I would have made another lap.
Anyway, I don’t think that the way they regulate their classes is a bad thing. Move up or move out. It’s the way I grew up racing. Beg, nov, int, expert and pro. And believe me, no one back then wanted to be a “beginner”. It was more of a pride thing i think.
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cwel11
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cwel11 11/19/2022 3:53pm
11/19/2022 3:53pm
Stop paying contingency for C classes. Most of our local sandbag problems can be attributed to that.
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Dave v3.0
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Dave v3.0 11/19/2022 4:07pm
11/19/2022 4:07pm
You'll never change it. The Participation Trophy Generation is Vet age now. They all deserve trophies. Just ask them.

At some point, folks quit putting a premium on achievement and this is what we are left with...

And then...everything on the Amateur side of the sport changed in 1982 when Loretta's was born and promoters saw the genius of having 40 different classes but with the same number of racers entered in 3-4 classes each race day so they could get the same number of laps that they used to get in a single class. Absolute Genius move if you are the one collecting the money.
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FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 11/19/2022 4:15pm
11/19/2022 4:15pm
Landonious217 wrote:
Why did it change from:

Pro
Expert
Intermediate
Novice
Beginner

I think the number of people who show up a track. You used to get three classes of 125 novices, which makes it easier to carve out a beginner class that is more welcoming to noobs.

Novice definitely conveys newness, not skill level, so some sort of Alpha designation addressing skill level rather than experience probably makes sense.
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WFO72
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WFO72 11/19/2022 4:34pm
11/19/2022 4:34pm
Stop paying any contingencies to beginners and novice C-riders period, just an award. B and Expert riders then get contingencies with the experts getting the best and then riders would strive to get better and win better contingencies. Around here, the 60+ C-guys get the same stuff as experts for end of year, that's BS! Then they go post their the 60+ champs when actually there the 60+ C-class winner.
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backinthesaddleagain 11/19/2022 4:49pm
11/19/2022 4:49pm
In New England the NESC has it simple and effective. Start in C. Top x number of places earn you points to advance to B. Then more points to advance you to A. Not sure if that’s true in Vet classes however. Back the short three years I raced you WANTED to move up.
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mattyhamz2 11/19/2022 4:51pm
11/19/2022 4:51pm
WFO72 wrote:
Stop paying any contingencies to beginners and novice C-riders period, just an award. B and Expert riders then get contingencies with the experts getting the best...
Stop paying any contingencies to beginners and novice C-riders period, just an award. B and Expert riders then get contingencies with the experts getting the best and then riders would strive to get better and win better contingencies. Around here, the 60+ C-guys get the same stuff as experts for end of year, that's BS! Then they go post their the 60+ champs when actually there the 60+ C-class winner.
If manufacturers cut out classes for contingency, that’s less bikes they sell. There are a lot to racers that buy their bikes based on contingency.
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LouisianaMotocross 11/19/2022 4:52pm
11/19/2022 4:52pm
My vote would be in addition to the ama national championship rule, any kid who top 5’s at any ama
Major and/or wins an ama feature race has to move up the next calander year.
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109
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109 11/19/2022 5:03pm
11/19/2022 5:03pm
bh wrote:
Eliminate Loretta’s C class and Prohibit Factory support in the B class for these nationals kids. I think it’s nonsense to have factory supported B class...
Eliminate Loretta’s C class and Prohibit Factory support in the B class for these nationals kids.

I think it’s nonsense to have factory supported B class kids who can qualify for a national till that changes nothing will change at the local level.
Amen!
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sandtrack315
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sandtrack315 11/19/2022 5:34pm
11/19/2022 5:34pm
As soon as I was running towards the front of the C class and knew I wouldn’t be last in the B class I moved up. On my best days I was closer to the front than the back in the B class, but racing dudes that were sending it that hard was much more fun than racing 1 or 2 other fast guys in the C class.
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racingfortheson 11/19/2022 9:11pm
11/19/2022 9:11pm
I don’t know why a simple, 3 years of experience and your out of C class. Cut and dry, move up or get out. Then we would have better racing in the B class and more slow riders enjoying C class.
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profeshenal125 11/19/2022 11:28pm
11/19/2022 11:28pm
quadzrulebro wrote:
You think it’s bad now, you should have seen what the C class looked like back in the 90s when Yamaha was was paying $500 a...
You think it’s bad now, you should have seen what the C class looked like back in the 90s when Yamaha was was paying $500 a class for a win in the C class! If you bought your bike at North County Yamaha and ran their graphics kit, they would double your contingency in one class per day. If you won 125 and 250C on the same day, it would be a $1500 pay day! I remember a GFI race at Perris when McGrath’s roommate Lew hucked a huge jump in the C practice that Phil Lawrence passed on jumping in the A practice. Phil jumped it in the race, but Lew hit it first. That same year, one of the MX magazines listed the top 10 YZ bucks earners for the year. As I recall, Lew was in the top 3 right behind Jeromy Buehl.
Yeah NCY was Great I bought Pedro,s 95 yz125 sx bike the frame and special mag linkage at least. A couple Wi. Guys worked at NCY they treated me Great. I don’t remember who did there engine work but it was good. A 98 regional contingency race 125 c winner would be top 3 in 250a now easily. They had a practice bike and rode more with more places to ride. I remember construction workers pooling there money together and leasing land and borrow equipment from there employer. Vet racing with guys staying down a class is pretty bad. Racer X vet series with transponders hv the same 40,45,50b top 5 every yr.
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JM485
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JM485 11/19/2022 11:46pm
11/19/2022 11:46pm
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and...
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and had a slightly similar view, although not as negative as yours. Truth is, many vet riders are just as fast as the equal class non vet rider. They may not look the same as you get more efficient and smarter the older you get. I’m a Vet A rider. Actually not that far from 40, and I would definitely not get last in the regular A class nor would I get beat by many B riders on a local level. C class? You’re dreaming.
Around here that’s not even remotely accurate, there’s no way a vet B rider is even in the same zip code as a 250B rider. I run 250B right now (and not with any results to write home about) and in a few years I’ll be eligible for vet classes and races, when I do I’ll probably end up running Vet A/pro as the equivalent.
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 11/20/2022 12:02am
11/20/2022 12:02am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2022 12:03am
JM485 wrote:
Around here that’s not even remotely accurate, there’s no way a vet B rider is even in the same zip code as a 250B rider. I...
Around here that’s not even remotely accurate, there’s no way a vet B rider is even in the same zip code as a 250B rider. I run 250B right now (and not with any results to write home about) and in a few years I’ll be eligible for vet classes and races, when I do I’ll probably end up running Vet A/pro as the equivalent.
It’s a bit of a mix by me as well. There is a very wide range of riders in the Vet B and Vet A classes. I just think it’s hilarious how the comment I was responding to was stated. If 40+ A riders should be equal to non Vet A riders to be considered an A rider, there would be maybe one or two guys in +40 A at most. It’s a silly take. And to say a Vet A rider couldn’t win C class is delusional. Justin Brayton is 38 years old. Being a Vet rider doesn’t automatically make you slow.
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profeshenal125 11/20/2022 12:03am
11/20/2022 12:03am
Wi. And the Midwest has vet riders that haul. A pal from IL. Usually doesn’t win in iL. He won every moto he raced in Cal. At a REM race. I think your b,c riders r fast tho. Think about the most popular Mx track Red Bud . No Ca. Riders show up for am day or vet fest in the vet classes riders from all ovr the country tho. A couple show up at Millville and get smoked.
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CPR
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CPR 11/20/2022 12:38am
11/20/2022 12:38am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2022 12:40am
Sounds like it works different in the States but locally here it’s always been C = Clubman, A = Pro, B = Intermediate (young riders on the rise and vet pros on the way back down). Some races have vet classes as well.
Any B or C rider that’s regularly in the top 3 for a whole season usually gets moved up by the governing body. Likewise it’s only after a full season at the back of the pack that you can request to move down a class. That’s assessed on a case by case basis.
Promoters and individuals have nothing to do with grading here, that’s what governing bodies are for.
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defeatist45
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defeatist45 11/20/2022 1:45am
11/20/2022 1:45am
IF you can get all the other riders on board, just sit at the gate and let him take off by himself.
Richy
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Richy 11/20/2022 1:50am
11/20/2022 1:50am
No shame in racing beginner or novice - if you are one. I can respect most anyone racing a motorcycle, at any level.

Chasing novice or C Class trophies is kinda weak though, *unless* you've been racing for a while and that truly is your personal speed/class, whether it's due to balls, fitness, age, willingness to take risks, whatever. Still though, at some point you should be riding around at the back of the next class, clearing the way.

Straight sandbagging to get lower class trophies, however, is just a 100% bitch move. People even sandbag practice here in the UK, so they can look badass to their girlfriend or on their YouTube videos... Makes it tough when you really do suck on a bike nowadays haha, sharing the track with dudes racing weekly for years.

I like the transponder / lap time approach, with some common sense and monitoring by guys running the event on top.
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Brad460
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Brad460 11/20/2022 6:59am
11/20/2022 6:59am
Not sure if other Districts are the same, but here in WI after +30 all the classes are the same…called Senior +40, +50 and +60 with no separation for A B and C.

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bite_the_curb 11/20/2022 7:06am
11/20/2022 7:06am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2022 7:33am
they should keep track of laptimes via transponder and let the data decide who races what class

if you're 5+ seconds faster than everyone else in your class you need to move up

American Endurance Racing (auto racing) does this.
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yz133rider
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yz133rider 11/20/2022 7:21am
11/20/2022 7:21am
bite_the_curb wrote:
they should keep track of laptimes via transponder and let the data decide who races what class if you're 5+ seconds faster than everyone else in...
they should keep track of laptimes via transponder and let the data decide who races what class

if you're 5+ seconds faster than everyone else in your class you need to move up

American Endurance Racing (auto racing) does this.
Bingo. Self identifying what class you race is dumb.
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JM485
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JM485 11/20/2022 7:25am
11/20/2022 7:25am
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
It’s a bit of a mix by me as well. There is a very wide range of riders in the Vet B and Vet A classes...
It’s a bit of a mix by me as well. There is a very wide range of riders in the Vet B and Vet A classes. I just think it’s hilarious how the comment I was responding to was stated. If 40+ A riders should be equal to non Vet A riders to be considered an A rider, there would be maybe one or two guys in +40 A at most. It’s a silly take. And to say a Vet A rider couldn’t win C class is delusional. Justin Brayton is 38 years old. Being a Vet rider doesn’t automatically make you slow.
That’s the reality around here though, most Vet A riders are definitely not winning 250C in this area because there’s so much sandbagging. I wouldn’t say that Vet A is slow, but 250C can be pretty stacked up near the front. Obviously there are some extremely fast Vet A guys that are legitimately pro speed but that’s not the norm.
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studworx
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studworx 11/20/2022 7:48am
11/20/2022 7:48am Edited Date/Time 11/20/2022 7:49am
Cygrace74 wrote:
It’s never going to be agreed on but a vet B rider should actually be a B class speed. The vet class should only be for...
It’s never going to be agreed on but a vet B rider should actually be a B class speed. The vet class should only be for racing people of a similar age to avoid young guys being risky. If the person can not go to 250 C or youth C and top 3 consistently and win they’re not a B rider. But like the rest of the country there will be Vet A and Vet B riders who can’t win a C class moto and they get to walk around and tell people they’re an A rider like it matters
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and...
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and had a slightly similar view, although not as negative as yours. Truth is, many vet riders are just as fast as the equal class non vet rider. They may not look the same as you get more efficient and smarter the older you get. I’m a Vet A rider. Actually not that far from 40, and I would definitely not get last in the regular A class nor would I get beat by many B riders on a local level. C class? You’re dreaming.
I’ve raced in many areas, and lots of different clubs and sanctioning bodies. I’ve never seen Vet A riders that could beat top C riders. NESC is usually the closest. But the reason Vet classes exist is because that speed gap exists.

Here’s how they compare at the largest provincial (state) club in our country. Vet A compared to C class. 37 seconds a lap off leader vs leader.
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quadzrulebro 11/20/2022 8:05am
11/20/2022 8:05am
Cygrace74 wrote:
It’s never going to be agreed on but a vet B rider should actually be a B class speed. The vet class should only be for...
It’s never going to be agreed on but a vet B rider should actually be a B class speed. The vet class should only be for racing people of a similar age to avoid young guys being risky. If the person can not go to 250 C or youth C and top 3 consistently and win they’re not a B rider. But like the rest of the country there will be Vet A and Vet B riders who can’t win a C class moto and they get to walk around and tell people they’re an A rider like it matters
Mr. Afterbar wrote:
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and...
Are you a vet rider? I’m willing to bet that you aren’t. When I was younger, I didn’t pay much attention to the vet classes and had a slightly similar view, although not as negative as yours. Truth is, many vet riders are just as fast as the equal class non vet rider. They may not look the same as you get more efficient and smarter the older you get. I’m a Vet A rider. Actually not that far from 40, and I would definitely not get last in the regular A class nor would I get beat by many B riders on a local level. C class? You’re dreaming.
studworx wrote:
I’ve raced in many areas, and lots of different clubs and sanctioning bodies. I’ve never seen Vet A riders that could beat top C riders. NESC...
I’ve raced in many areas, and lots of different clubs and sanctioning bodies. I’ve never seen Vet A riders that could beat top C riders. NESC is usually the closest. But the reason Vet classes exist is because that speed gap exists.

Here’s how they compare at the largest provincial (state) club in our country. Vet A compared to C class. 37 seconds a lap off leader vs leader.
Just because someone enters the A class doesn’t make them an A rider. Drive a few hours south to the states. I’m pretty confident that there isn’t a C rider in the world that could hold a candle to Mike Brown.
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8tensolutions
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8tensolutions 11/20/2022 8:11am
11/20/2022 8:11am
Why does anyone care unless you're the one in the C class getting worked by these guys? If you are, go faster rather than complaining someone faster than you is in the wrong class. If not, these guys pay to ride, buy bikes and parts, and show up helping to keep tracks open. If they want to sandbag, it doesn't hurt anyone.

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