"I changed the frame this week..."

rhargrave431
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rhargrave431 8/28/2021 7:49pm
8/28/2021 7:49pm
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
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Zycki11
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Zycki11 8/28/2021 7:51pm
8/28/2021 7:51pm
rhargrave431 wrote:
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
I’m gonna go with your being sarcastic? Frame changes to get the geometry of the motorcycle is much more difficult than bore and stroke
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mxbrian15
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mxbrian15 8/28/2021 7:56pm
8/28/2021 7:56pm
rhargrave431 wrote:
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
Zycki11 wrote:
I’m gonna go with your being sarcastic? Frame changes to get the geometry of the motorcycle is much more difficult than bore and stroke
I think it was a joke referring to when Davalos mentioned in an interview about the team changing the bore and stroke when he was on Team Tedder.
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rhargrave431
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rhargrave431 8/28/2021 7:59pm
8/28/2021 7:59pm
rhargrave431 wrote:
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
Zycki11 wrote:
I’m gonna go with your being sarcastic? Frame changes to get the geometry of the motorcycle is much more difficult than bore and stroke
Yes it was a joke. Last year Tedder said with KTM they had ability to change the bore and stroke in an interview with RacerX
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Johnny Ringo
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Johnny Ringo 8/28/2021 8:08pm
8/28/2021 8:08pm
Shocker Rog fought him on bike change that would actually help
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swatdoc
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swatdoc 8/28/2021 9:51pm
8/28/2021 9:51pm
dirtcyclewill wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/28/507967/s1200_CW2.jpg[/img]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog
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mxtech1
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mxtech1 8/28/2021 9:53pm
8/28/2021 9:53pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing...
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing protest over, because only production is legal. Everyone who has tested the new frames said the same thing, overly rigid. Team Austria has had a very rough year, and JA21 and DW15 have also struggled. Bam Bam had been the bright spot.
When’s the last time a Factory AMA bike was torn down for a compliance inspection?
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Thisusernameisavailable 8/28/2021 10:03pm
8/28/2021 10:03pm
mxtech1 wrote:
It’s been stated several times that Roger put them on their GP Team package since they were delayed in their own MX testing due to SX...
It’s been stated several times that Roger put them on their GP Team package since they were delayed in their own MX testing due to SX championship contention. They were late to the game and thought they were better to start the 2021 National series with the GP package than what little time they had left to test to develop their own package.

I’m willing to bet Cooper finally convinced them to ditch the GP frame version and let him go back to whatever he was running at the end of SX. I could see this being a big deal to Roger and Ian because when the frames are different between USA and GP, the team loses correlation and data between the two teams. The frame change would also impact suspension settings, forward traction which would require diff ECU settings/mapping, and probably many other small things.

Anyone’s guess as to what’s different with the GP frame.
AMA rules say that the frame geometry needs to stay OEM.

They can ADD bracing, but cannot take any away.

The GP frame cannot be too far removed from OEM if that’s the case.
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slowgti
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slowgti 8/28/2021 10:03pm
8/28/2021 10:03pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing...
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing protest over, because only production is legal. Everyone who has tested the new frames said the same thing, overly rigid. Team Austria has had a very rough year, and JA21 and DW15 have also struggled. Bam Bam had been the bright spot.
mxtech1 wrote:
When’s the last time a Factory AMA bike was torn down for a compliance inspection?
When is the last time the ama had the tools to accurately measure geometry at the track?
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kpiper
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kpiper 8/28/2021 10:07pm
8/28/2021 10:07pm Edited Date/Time 8/28/2021 10:08pm
Isn't anyone else wondering if this comment was just Webb being Webb???
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Bruce372
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Bruce372 8/28/2021 10:35pm
8/28/2021 10:35pm
kpiper wrote:
Isn't anyone else wondering if this comment was just Webb being Webb???
Exactly, he was feeling it today and said all that stiff to mess with his competition and the fans.
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tek14
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tek14 8/28/2021 10:40pm
8/28/2021 10:40pm
His bike looked much better at track anyways. If using 2018 softer frame and even swingarm from Husky that has same dimensions but its softer with more flex you could make totally different bike.
Cant wait to see what direction KTM goes with new 2023 model later this year.
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inthebadboycorner 8/28/2021 11:47pm
8/28/2021 11:47pm
rhargrave431 wrote:
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
Zycki11 wrote:
I’m gonna go with your being sarcastic? Frame changes to get the geometry of the motorcycle is much more difficult than bore and stroke
I thought most geometry could be changed with triple clamps and swingarm length
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CivBars
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CivBars 8/29/2021 12:29am
8/29/2021 12:29am
Heard he borrowed Barcia's
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Yeti831
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Yeti831 8/29/2021 12:43am
8/29/2021 12:43am
Zycki11 wrote:
Lots of changes can be made to the frame externally. Aka engine mounts subframe height, different bolts of TI vs aluminum or even stainless steal. All...
Lots of changes can be made to the frame externally. Aka engine mounts subframe height, different bolts of TI vs aluminum or even stainless steal. All of that adds up to flex/rigidity
Plus as well, and correct me if I’m wrong, can’t gussets be added?

I thought rules said production frame with no material removed with no geometry changes but I thought you could add material? I could be wrong but the thought did occur. I remember it was a common thing on the steel frame smokers.

And on that note, and I’m purely speculating because I’m again thinking of common procedures in the “old days”, don’t factories also do things like a production floor frame and maybe just have a wider bead of weld in certain areas or using material in areas slightly thicker than stock?

I’m behind a little on modern chassis touches that fall within or skirt the race rules so figured if the topic is here, bring it up for discussion 👍
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BAD10
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BAD10 8/29/2021 12:52am
8/29/2021 12:52am
rhargrave431 wrote:
You guys are obviously all forgetting that they can also change the bore and stroke at KTM. A frame change is rookie shit.
My first thought was they switched to the earlier less rigid frame. And I have to laugh when people scoff at the comment of changing bore and stroke. I’m not sure if it’s AMA legal, but bore and stroke can absolutely be changed to alter power characteristics within a given displacement. For example, assuming an identical total displacement … a longer stroke/smaller bore combo generally gives a more torquey and smoother power delivery. A shorter stroke/larger bore combo generally gives a quicker revving and harder hitting power characteristic. There’s many other factors that come in to play such as Rod length to stroke ratio, cam timing, etc. The bore and stroke is just part of the equation.
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felpro
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felpro 8/29/2021 1:29am
8/29/2021 1:29am
I am trying to think where I heard a comment about taking an SX bike/SX mentality into outdoors. Maybe it was Jeremy Albrecht on Whisky Throttle. The point being that the SX mindset was a poor starting point.
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tek14
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tek14 8/29/2021 4:44am
8/29/2021 4:44am
Maybe they found good old #5 Dungey frame from 2015!
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Crush
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Crush 8/29/2021 5:40am
8/29/2021 5:40am
They will have added bracing. They have to run the homologated frame, they can't remove material (officially) but they can brace it with extra stuff.
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dirtwalker 8/29/2021 6:11am
8/29/2021 6:11am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2021 6:12am
kylemenz1 wrote:
Serious question here: With the ability to run a frame that’s design is 5 years old (I thought it was 2 years but I’m an amateur)...
Serious question here:

With the ability to run a frame that’s design is 5 years old (I thought it was 2 years but I’m an amateur) has any manufacturer tried designing SX and MX frames for production bikes every other few years?

For instance, if a frame was built ridgid good for tight point and shoot style SX racing, and the next generation frame was built with more flex that suited long rough MX style racing. If this was done race teams be able to use the different generation frames for multiple years in each discipline giving teams better ability to set up chassis.

Do you guys think that would benefit riders/teams in preseason testing and racing?
Just wondering if the rules only relate to welded parts of the frame. If so, maybe the frame design could be changed to have a bolt in/on section and the teams could change that section. E.g bolt in gussets that could be changed. Might be simpler.
LKHill
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LKHill 8/29/2021 6:54am
8/29/2021 6:54am
The bike appeared to be more compliant. Hard to tell by watching if it suspension or frame related. Going off Webb's comments (if you can believe a sneaky Chihuahua) it would be an '18 frame or a current gen with less additionally rigidity built into it.

Whatever the case I am sure the hornets nest has been stirred.
sebastianer 8/29/2021 7:00am
8/29/2021 7:00am
Ofcorse they will run a factory frame if the rider wants it, no one will ever messure tube thickness or a degree here or there. the test riders in europe probably test 20 different frames a year.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 8/29/2021 7:30am
8/29/2021 7:30am
Johnny Depp wrote:
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing...
KTM wouldnt' likely be running around all season in the back of the top 10 with a GP frame. That wouldn't be worth risking an embarrassing protest over, because only production is legal. Everyone who has tested the new frames said the same thing, overly rigid. Team Austria has had a very rough year, and JA21 and DW15 have also struggled. Bam Bam had been the bright spot.
mxtech1 wrote:
When’s the last time a Factory AMA bike was torn down for a compliance inspection?
slowgti wrote:
When is the last time the ama had the tools to accurately measure geometry at the track?
When is the last time the AMA showed up at a race with a semi full of all the homologated parts from the last 5 years for every make to compare against at tech inspection?

Homo rule is a joke.
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Chris_Buehler 8/29/2021 7:47am
8/29/2021 7:47am
tek14 wrote:
Maybe they found good old #5 Dungey frame from 2015!
Lmao!!
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sumdood
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sumdood 8/29/2021 7:49am
8/29/2021 7:49am
LKHill wrote:
The bike appeared to be more compliant. Hard to tell by watching if it suspension or frame related. Going off Webb's comments (if you can believe...
The bike appeared to be more compliant. Hard to tell by watching if it suspension or frame related. Going off Webb's comments (if you can believe a sneaky Chihuahua) it would be an '18 frame or a current gen with less additionally rigidity built into it.

Whatever the case I am sure the hornets nest has been stirred.
That sounds like the only 2 possibility’s as far a making a “Legal” frame change ? What else could they have done ? Think we’ll ever know what the change was ? If I was KTM I think saying “ We decided to just leave it stock without adding gussets” sounds better than “The 3 year old frame works better”. Curious to see how he does the last 2 rounds.
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LKHill
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LKHill 8/29/2021 8:02am
8/29/2021 8:02am
sumdood wrote:
That sounds like the only 2 possibility’s as far a making a “Legal” frame change ? What else could they have done ? Think we’ll ever...
That sounds like the only 2 possibility’s as far a making a “Legal” frame change ? What else could they have done ? Think we’ll ever know what the change was ? If I was KTM I think saying “ We decided to just leave it stock without adding gussets” sounds better than “The 3 year old frame works better”. Curious to see how he does the last 2 rounds.
Maybe I am reading too much into it but for his bosses to kill him the '18 frame would be sure to raise a few eyebrows and possibly hurt sales.
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RMT
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RMT 8/29/2021 8:53am
8/29/2021 8:53am
His results are getting better because guys that were beating him earlier in the year are hurt and not racing. But go ahead and talk about the frame.
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kpiper
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kpiper 8/29/2021 9:03am
8/29/2021 9:03am Edited Date/Time 8/29/2021 9:06am
LKHill wrote:
Maybe I am reading too much into it but for his bosses to kill him the '18 frame would be sure to raise a few eyebrows...
Maybe I am reading too much into it but for his bosses to kill him the '18 frame would be sure to raise a few eyebrows and possibly hurt sales.
Webb being Webb. I think you guys underestimate him and his mental game. That is how he has fun.

If you put MM25 and AC back in the race he probably gets 5th. Make it not a hot day and Kenny beats him too. Plus, Sexton had an off day. Barcia out too.

Am I missing anyone? That could have easily been another 7th place finish. Granted he is riding better now though.
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Crush
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Crush 8/29/2021 9:04am
8/29/2021 9:04am
RMT wrote:
His results are getting better because guys that were beating him earlier in the year are hurt and not racing. But go ahead and talk about...
His results are getting better because guys that were beating him earlier in the year are hurt and not racing. But go ahead and talk about the frame.
There would be some of that if he was running 10-15th and was now top 5, but he was around 5-7 and latched on to Dylan all second moto, definite improvement.
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