Will KTM / WP ever give up on trying to reinvent the fork?

TheGetFresh 5/16/2021 2:22pm
5/16/2021 2:22pm
This is a weird thread... OP comes in admitting he’s been out of the game for awhile and ignorant to mx tech trends during his time away, and explains he is surprised to see how committed to air forks the Austrians have been. He goes on to ask polite, well articulated questions and gets called a “pro whiner” and grilled for starting a “clown show” topic.

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hellion
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hellion 5/16/2021 2:23pm
5/16/2021 2:23pm
Coming off 5 years on yamahas I found the WP stuff on my 250SX to be better stock than I could ever get the KYB after multiple revalves. I actually really liked the air fork too, but did convert to spring just because most of my rides are 3-5 hours and I could tell they got stiffer as the day went on ( and I’ve had multiple shoulder and wrist surgeries )
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Bnagazina 5/16/2021 2:25pm
5/16/2021 2:25pm
Buy a 2021 (2006) yz 250 then. You can good suspension good power, reliability, except second gear, and all the leading technology from 2006. You will save some money too. Different strokes for different folks. Ktm is better than other brands in some areas, not better than others. Be an adult and accept this fact and quit whining. Hell there are 6 -7 brands that sell spring forks - focus on them.
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soggy
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soggy 5/16/2021 2:32pm
5/16/2021 2:32pm
AZRider wrote:
Then just buy the KTM and put SSS internals in. Not $4500 and you wont have anything but great things to say about your 15 year...
Then just buy the KTM and put SSS internals in. Not $4500 and you wont have anything but great things to say about your 15 year old fork technology.
sandhills wrote:
I didn't know that, thank you.
Not to mention Mx tech lucky cartridges, k tech and race tech, Lainer etc that all do spring conversions.

Ranging from 500 to 1500
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vdrsnk04
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vdrsnk04 5/16/2021 2:50pm
5/16/2021 2:50pm
yz133rider wrote:
Well they have forks that work as well as any brand now and weigh 3lbs lighter than anyone else. So I’d say that’s worth the effort.
sandhills wrote:
Am I right to understand that very few riders at the pro level of any discipline runs split damping or air forks? I understand regular riders...
Am I right to understand that very few riders at the pro level of any discipline runs split damping or air forks?

I understand regular riders aren't pros, but one of the coolest parts of the sport to me is the proximity of the stock bikes to the factory bikes. Obviously they are on a different level of setup, tuning, refinement, etc. but just the fact that their bikes are generally based on all of the same components and design is something that seems special to me. Completely different from things like cars where you can never even dream of having a machine that that even resembles those at the pinnacle of the sport.

It's just unsatisfying to think that you're getting this inferior design when the Japanese bikes are still offering something that is demonstrably the superior technology.
The Star Yamaha team runs KYB air forks rather then spring and you can check their track record...
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BikePilot
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BikePilot 5/16/2021 3:12pm
5/16/2021 3:12pm
Imo most ktm forks prior to 2017 were near unrideable they were so bad. Major hindrance for the bike. The AERs (came out in 2017 and seem to get a little better every year) are really good and on par with everything else while being noticeably lighter. I run A class and have no issue with stock AERs. Maybe they aren’t up to speed for national pros chasing points, but at that level everyone is running kit forks.
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inthebadboycorner 5/16/2021 3:31pm
5/16/2021 3:31pm
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it be a 30 min moto or a 4 hour off road ride?
Do the factory teams use nitrogen?
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AZRider
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AZRider 5/16/2021 3:55pm
5/16/2021 3:55pm
inthebadboycorner wrote:
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it...
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it be a 30 min moto or a 4 hour off road ride?
Do the factory teams use nitrogen?
I actually have wondered the same thing. Nitrogen is cheap. Just the idea of having to have nitrogen tank to adjust your fork would suck.
agn5008
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agn5008 5/16/2021 4:17pm
5/16/2021 4:17pm
EngIceDave wrote:
Why do you NOT want them to try and reinvent the fork?

sandhills wrote:
Because I don't want to be a tester for a questionable technology. Anyone will tell you the original forks on any given five year old Husky...
Because I don't want to be a tester for a questionable technology. Anyone will tell you the original forks on any given five year old Husky right now are a downside to the bike. What are the chances that if you buy a TE 150i today the same will be true five years from now? I'd say 100%, if it's not already considered true right now.
Why don’t you just buy a Yamaha or Honda if it bothers you this much? KTM is top of the line as far as innovation goes. I don’t know why that bothers you.
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soggy
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soggy 5/16/2021 4:21pm
5/16/2021 4:21pm
Sandhills gonna be real upset when ktm puts the air shock on in 23 or 24.
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Broseph
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Broseph 5/16/2021 7:03pm
5/16/2021 7:03pm Edited Date/Time 5/16/2021 7:06pm
EngIceDave wrote:
Why do you NOT want them to try and reinvent the fork?

sandhills wrote:
Because I don't want to be a tester for a questionable technology. Anyone will tell you the original forks on any given five year old Husky...
Because I don't want to be a tester for a questionable technology. Anyone will tell you the original forks on any given five year old Husky right now are a downside to the bike. What are the chances that if you buy a TE 150i today the same will be true five years from now? I'd say 100%, if it's not already considered true right now.
agn5008 wrote:
Why don’t you just buy a Yamaha or Honda if it bothers you this much? KTM is top of the line as far as innovation goes...
Why don’t you just buy a Yamaha or Honda if it bothers you this much? KTM is top of the line as far as innovation goes. I don’t know why that bothers you.
He’s not only talking about moto. And he’s absolutely right about the TE150 example. Xplor forks are trash. And AER are not the best forks on the market. Innovative, sure, but they’ve almost single handedly created the booming market for aftermarket drop in cartridges that we have today.
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MKMX
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MKMX 5/16/2021 8:23pm
5/16/2021 8:23pm
inthebadboycorner wrote:
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it...
I have to ask, why can't nitrogen be used in the air fork to prevent pressure changes as the temp rises during a ride, wether it be a 30 min moto or a 4 hour off road ride?
Do the factory teams use nitrogen?
Nitrogen does react to changes in temperature also.
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Bruce372
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Bruce372 5/16/2021 8:35pm
5/16/2021 8:35pm
I haven't seen fork springs in years and hope I never have to.
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Broseph
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Broseph 5/16/2021 8:36pm
5/16/2021 8:36pm
I think the op’s point still stands. You go buy the most technologically advanced and lightest offroad bike on he market (KTM XCW, EXC, Husky FE/TE), and the suspension is trash. Not even normal trash, but weird single sided damping no real midvalve trash. If it were just a normal open or closed cartridge like KTM had 15 years ago, a simple revalve would make it great. As it is, you have to buy parts to make it good, or replace the entire cartridge to make it great.

I think it’s completely valid to ask: Why the heck is KTM doing this? Especially since the rest of the bike is fantastic and others have had suspension dialed for years.
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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 5/16/2021 9:52pm
5/16/2021 9:52pm
KTM has never offered the forks all of their factory riders use for almost 20 years , the 52 mm. We are not worthy.
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seth505
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seth505 5/16/2021 9:59pm
5/16/2021 9:59pm
Broseph wrote:
I think the op’s point still stands. You go buy the most technologically advanced and lightest offroad bike on he market (KTM XCW, EXC, Husky FE/TE)...
I think the op’s point still stands. You go buy the most technologically advanced and lightest offroad bike on he market (KTM XCW, EXC, Husky FE/TE), and the suspension is trash. Not even normal trash, but weird single sided damping no real midvalve trash. If it were just a normal open or closed cartridge like KTM had 15 years ago, a simple revalve would make it great. As it is, you have to buy parts to make it good, or replace the entire cartridge to make it great.

I think it’s completely valid to ask: Why the heck is KTM doing this? Especially since the rest of the bike is fantastic and others have had suspension dialed for years.
They're not trash though, they work well. OPs thread might make sense if they were the worst forks on the market but they are far from that. Forks that work well and are 3 pounds lighter than KYB SSS forks is a win in my book. I've had both and the spring (yamaha) SSS forks I had were not perfect.

Off topic, but what do you feel is wrong with the xplor forks?
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tk2stroke
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tk2stroke 5/16/2021 10:18pm
5/16/2021 10:18pm
sandhills wrote:
Well the reason I'm making this post is primarily because I'm bored, a wave of people such as myself has bought out all the new bikes...
Well the reason I'm making this post is primarily because I'm bored, a wave of people such as myself has bought out all the new bikes. If there was a dealer within a 500 mile radius that had the one I've settled on I'd own it already and be out playing with it. I'm refurbishing my 2003 but it's not worth putting that much money into so I'm doing it piece by piece, waiting to see if I hit an expensive road block. Got my front brake master cylinder rebuilt last weekend, new clutch boss this weekend, carb rebuild kit ordered for next weekend.

I've been open to the idea that I just don't understand motocross now, but the more I read the more I think I do understand that what KTM is selling for forks on production models is not a succeeding technology.

I'm friends with two racers, both are on KTM's, one is an amateur fun racer on air forks who wants cone valves, the other has their pro card and has cone valves.

I can see that KTM is the leading platform and that's sort of what frustrates me is I want to jump in, I want to be on one, but as a hobbyist (even though I'm not serious enough for any fork to make a difference) part of the fun is being particular and I don't want to buy something that is going to leave me feeling like what it really needs is a set of $4500+ kit forks. To my friends who are more serious that's worth it to them, but not to me. And I find it curious that KTM is sticking with this shortcoming on the showroom floor. I suspect there must be something cost wise behind it.
There is no shortcoming with the current generation 2021 XACT air forks. The AER fork arrived in 2016-17 and each year it's improved and today it's close to on par with the SSS fork. If the trend continues in 5 years the average rider might laugh at anyone who is still riding a spring fork.

Companies who continue to innovate and are willing to continuously experiment and fail are the one's who revolutionize their industry.
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MKMX
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MKMX 5/16/2021 10:23pm
5/16/2021 10:23pm
Johnny Depp wrote:
KTM has never offered the forks all of their factory riders use for almost 20 years , the 52 mm. We are not worthy.
Much the same as Showa never selling their 51mm forks to the public.
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Timo 5/16/2021 10:42pm
5/16/2021 10:42pm
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
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Broseph 5/16/2021 10:51pm
5/16/2021 10:51pm
Broseph wrote:
I think the op’s point still stands. You go buy the most technologically advanced and lightest offroad bike on he market (KTM XCW, EXC, Husky FE/TE)...
I think the op’s point still stands. You go buy the most technologically advanced and lightest offroad bike on he market (KTM XCW, EXC, Husky FE/TE), and the suspension is trash. Not even normal trash, but weird single sided damping no real midvalve trash. If it were just a normal open or closed cartridge like KTM had 15 years ago, a simple revalve would make it great. As it is, you have to buy parts to make it good, or replace the entire cartridge to make it great.

I think it’s completely valid to ask: Why the heck is KTM doing this? Especially since the rest of the bike is fantastic and others have had suspension dialed for years.
seth505 wrote:
They're not trash though, they work well. OPs thread might make sense if they were the worst forks on the market but they are far from...
They're not trash though, they work well. OPs thread might make sense if they were the worst forks on the market but they are far from that. Forks that work well and are 3 pounds lighter than KYB SSS forks is a win in my book. I've had both and the spring (yamaha) SSS forks I had were not perfect.

Off topic, but what do you feel is wrong with the xplor forks?
I thought the op meant KTM forks in general. If he only meant AER, then my comments are out if line. The AER do alright.

The Xplor actually are the worst forks on the market. Literally cannot think of a currently produced fork that is less tunable and less versatile than the Xplor.

- They are shorter than both 4CS and AER for that signature Euro stinkbug feel.
- Clickers do nothing (this is well documented).
- The midvalve doesn’t have a shim stack.
-They are split function for unknown reasons.
-The stock valving is dangerous over 45mph.
-Revalve can help, but I’ve never found them to be anywhere near the rest of the forks on the market even after a revalve.
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-MAVERICK-
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-MAVERICK- 5/16/2021 10:57pm
5/16/2021 10:57pm
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Timo wrote:
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo...
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?
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KennyMc 5/16/2021 11:36pm
5/16/2021 11:36pm
AZRider wrote:
Then just buy the KTM and put SSS internals in. Not $4500 and you wont have anything but great things to say about your 15 year...
Then just buy the KTM and put SSS internals in. Not $4500 and you wont have anything but great things to say about your 15 year old fork technology.
sandhills wrote:
I didn't know that, thank you.
soggy wrote:
Not to mention Mx tech lucky cartridges, k tech and race tech, Lainer etc that all do spring conversions.

Ranging from 500 to 1500
Throw in the WP 6500's as well
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ZOBITO 5/17/2021 12:38am
5/17/2021 12:38am
TheGetFresh wrote:
This is a weird thread... OP comes in admitting he’s been out of the game for awhile and ignorant to mx tech trends during his time...
This is a weird thread... OP comes in admitting he’s been out of the game for awhile and ignorant to mx tech trends during his time away, and explains he is surprised to see how committed to air forks the Austrians have been. He goes on to ask polite, well articulated questions and gets called a “pro whiner” and grilled for starting a “clown show” topic.

When you obviously know all the answers, why would you bother asking some questions?

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Johnny Ringo
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Johnny Ringo 5/17/2021 5:59am
5/17/2021 5:59am
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Timo wrote:
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo...
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?
I think he was talking fork performance beating them...I could be wrong
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Deadric 5/17/2021 6:59am
5/17/2021 6:59am Edited Date/Time 5/17/2021 7:00am
My 2021 350 sx-f has the best suspension of any bike I've ever owned and that was right off the floor with nothing done to it. Whatever they're doing its working.
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slipdog 5/17/2021 7:05am
5/17/2021 7:05am
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Timo wrote:
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo...
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?
***Calling ESR Tony to the Vital courtesy phone...
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Brent 5/17/2021 7:08am
5/17/2021 7:08am Edited Date/Time 5/17/2021 7:16am
Johnny Depp wrote:
KTM has never offered the forks all of their factory riders use for almost 20 years , the 52 mm. We are not worthy.
You can buy them if you know who to talk to. That includes the 52mm WP clamp. The price is significantly more than the 48mm cone valve fork.

The 52’s use the same cartridge and internal parts as the Xact pro 7548 cone valve fork, the outer tube is 4 mm larger.
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Skerby 5/17/2021 7:11am
5/17/2021 7:11am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?
Supercross title in 04. KTM hasn't won a single SX title with the 250SX, and they had McGrath. they are gonna have to get one of those before that bike earns the respect of this community.
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Johnny Ringo 5/17/2021 7:21am
5/17/2021 7:21am
-MAVERICK- wrote:
When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?
Skerby wrote:
Supercross title in 04. KTM hasn't won a single SX title with the 250SX, and they had McGrath. they are gonna have to get one of...
Supercross title in 04. KTM hasn't won a single SX title with the 250SX, and they had McGrath. they are gonna have to get one of those before that bike earns the respect of this community.
In total fairness, the 250SX has never even won a big bike main event or moto/overall
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captmoto
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captmoto 5/17/2021 7:24am
5/17/2021 7:24am
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Timo wrote:
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo...
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
Getting beat where?
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