Will KTM / WP ever give up on trying to reinvent the fork?

-MAVERICK- wrote:

When's the last time a Yamaha 2 stroke has won anything significant?

Skerby wrote:

Supercross title in 04. KTM hasn't won a single SX title with the 250SX, and they had McGrath. they are gonna have to get one of...

Supercross title in 04. KTM hasn't won a single SX title with the 250SX, and they had McGrath. they are gonna have to get one of those before that bike earns the respect of this community.

Johnny Ringo wrote:

In total fairness, the 250SX has never even won a big bike main event or moto/overall

Dirty Points wrote:

Does 3 lbs even matter in trophy trucks? Those guys often carry a whole spare person!

sandhills wrote:

Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see...

Does 3lbs really matter that much given the minimum bike weights? If that rule didn't exist and we had super light <150lb bikes I could see it being worth it, but at over 200lb I have trouble buying it.

Broseph wrote:

I thought the op meant KTM forks in general. If he only meant AER, then my comments are out if line. The AER do alright. The...

I thought the op meant KTM forks in general. If he only meant AER, then my comments are out if line. The AER do alright.

The Xplor actually are the worst forks on the market. Literally cannot think of a currently produced fork that is less tunable and less versatile than the Xplor.

- They are shorter than both 4CS and AER for that signature Euro stinkbug feel.
- Clickers do nothing (this is well documented).
- The midvalve doesn’t have a shim stack.
-They are split function for unknown reasons.
-The stock valving is dangerous over 45mph.
-Revalve can help, but I’ve never found them to be anywhere near the rest of the forks on the market even after a revalve.

sandhills wrote:

It's all of them, 4CS and XPLOR are more clearly exemplary of the problem but I believe AER is as well part the pattern. It does...

It's all of them, 4CS and XPLOR are more clearly exemplary of the problem but I believe AER is as well part the pattern. It does not look like a company chasing a superior technology to me, but rather one running away from a certain design, scrambling to find anything BUT a traditional cartridge fork that will work. Absent other explanation, or a strong argument for the potential superiority of AER design elements, I think patent control must be at the root of it.

Arguments in defense of the AER forks:

1. 3lbs lighter with equivalent performance - Ok, if that were true that would be a straightforward advantage, and if the product did have an advantage you'd expect at least some pros to capitalize on that, but there has been no significant professional use that I'm aware of. I think the equivalent performance half of this claim is dubious.

2. Pros still do use KYB air forks - Yes, still a different product though, not exactly a great endorsement of AER that it's competitor has succeeded where it has not.

I find several anecdotal references online that prior to 4CS KTM was licensing it's cartridge technology from Ohlins. It seems like that relationship was well established but I can't discern exactly what the timeline is. Kenth Ohlins regains control of the company in 2006, KTM switches to 4CS in something like 2013-2015, and Ohlins gets bought by Tenneco in 2018. It is conceivable that either Ohlins was financially pressured to turn the screws KTM in the licensing deal, or KTM saw the writing on the wall that Ohlins would eventually be bought out and did not want to be beholden to it's new owners.

I guess if there is a more accurate product axis at play here it's not air forks vs spring, it would be symmetrical vs split damping systems. We have the 4CS split damping - failure, XPLOR split damping - mediocre, AER split function - praised as adequate, but little to no penetration into professional use. And on the other hand symmetrically damped Cone Valve and symmetrically damped KYB air forks are both professionally viable products.

Symmetrical Cone Valve forks in production bikes would be the logical outcome here, and the fact that it hasn't happened yet makes me wonder if that fork too is subject to patent licensing royalties.

PFitzG38 wrote:

We’re you this clueless before you left the sport, or are you just frustrated it’s left you behind? It sounds like you want companies to stop...

We’re you this clueless before you left the sport, or are you just frustrated it’s left you behind? It sounds like you want companies to stop evolving

sandhills wrote:

Oh I was a clueless teenager when I left the sport for sure. I actually wanted a KTM back then.

sandhills wrote:

Thread unlocked

sandhills wrote:

Thread unlocked

soggy wrote:

Ready to acknowledge several top pros are riding air forks yet?

sandhills wrote:

Thread unlocked

soggy wrote:

Ready to acknowledge several top pros are riding air forks yet?

NSP139 wrote:

Just curious can you name the top Pros that are running AER?

soggy wrote:

Ready to acknowledge several top pros are riding air forks yet?

NSP139 wrote:

Just curious can you name the top Pros that are running AER?

soggy wrote:

Did I say AER or air?

NSP139 wrote:

This is an old thread but if I remember remember the OP was questioning the Aer on the KTMs it's already been established that Yamaha and...

This is an old thread but if I remember remember the OP was questioning the Aer on the KTMs it's already been established that Yamaha and some of the other teams are running the psf one which is actually my favorite Fork LOL

wrc777 wrote:

The top pros are not running anything oem.

NSP139 wrote:

This is an old thread but if I remember remember the OP was questioning the Aer on the KTMs it's already been established that Yamaha and...

This is an old thread but if I remember remember the OP was questioning the Aer on the KTMs it's already been established that Yamaha and some of the other teams are running the psf one which is actually my favorite Fork LOL

soggy wrote:

His whole thing was trying to say air is inferior to spring. Well if that was the case I don’t think the entire Star Yamaha team...

His whole thing was trying to say air is inferior to spring. Well if that was the case I don’t think the entire Star Yamaha team would be running air forks. I think Barcia is riding an air fork on his GG as well.

soggy wrote:

Ready to acknowledge several top pros are riding air forks yet?

sandhills wrote:

Yes. But not WPs.

soggy wrote:

Ready to acknowledge several top pros are riding air forks yet?

sandhills wrote:

Yes. But not WPs.

soggy wrote:

Barcia?

NSP139 wrote:

The air option on the cone valve is not OEM

soggy wrote:

Barcia?

sandhills wrote:

I think he's got springs in there but KTM doesn't want to say that.

soggy wrote:

Neither do most people with AER. The vocal minority are the ones posting here. Plenty of riders are happy with the AER forks.

NSP139 wrote:

The air option on the cone valve is not OEM

wrc777 wrote:

Ktm team guys aren’t running the wp cone valves we can buy either. None of the top pro Japanese bikes are riding on $3k forks either.

wrc777 wrote:

The top pros are not running anything oem.

Rjk31 wrote:

You seem to think you know an awful lot about their forks for being away for so long.. Ride some stock bikes. They offer 2 different...

You seem to think you know an awful lot about their forks for being away for so long..

Ride some stock bikes. They offer 2 different styles of fork for 3 different styles of riding. If you choose the wrong bike for the desired purpose its on you, not the forks. I would know.

I bought a xcw with the intention of not racing anymore and just riding single track. That lasted a couple months and I was back building an MX track. I bought the drop in WP 6500 cartridges and honestly it's better than anything I have had built or valved on my Suzuki's. It can handle slow technical stuff and it is a dream on the track. I would say WP knows a little more than you're giving them credit for 🤷 I know my next bike will be a ktm

MUTHERFUKER wrote:

What forks did your XC-W come with OE? Im assuming Xplor standard? What difference are the 6500 drop ins? Is the regular Xplor OC and the...

What forks did your XC-W come with OE? Im assuming Xplor standard?

What difference are the 6500 drop ins?

Is the regular Xplor OC and the 6500 CC?