Local Racing... What really grinds my gears. (South Carolina)

4/21/2021 11:46am
Vet warrior is for military riders. District 16 has a decent class structure. The 2 stroke and the 125 classes, get a good turn out along...
Vet warrior is for military riders. District 16 has a decent class structure. The 2 stroke and the 125 classes, get a good turn out along with vet classes. The 50cc classes should be dropped, they only race a small part of the track. There head bobbing back every time there on and off the gas. Spectators 1st say omg look how small they are, then see there head bobbling and there dad running around the track yelling at them, stupid race. 65cc maybe too, they race the whole track, but can’t do most obstacles. 85cc should be the smallest class. If 50 and 65cc race LL, race the regionals, not local. Spectators find there races boring. Great for flaggers tho, water the back section, get some food, etc. 200% payout is needed in 250A to get the rider # up. 90,s 125 A had full gates, now nothing. 1# in the state had 63 points . If raced 250A I would be state champ by attendance, would get my sign up money back too. I,m sure that would erck people. Like hey you only get 5th in 40 A. 40A needs at least 150% payout, to get the 40b Lifers to move up.
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term...
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term growth? Do that and you'll have a really short race day in 5-10 years. Plus, where would they get practice for LL qualifiers since that's the only place they should race, according to your argument.
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that...
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that is even average racing entertainment . Even at the LL national. Maybe you didn’t race 125A in the 90,s with full gates. Spectators covered the hillsides, local News station at ever race. And this is in Packer nation area. If you want to grow the sport, give people a reason to participate. Nobody is interested in watching a rich kid on a 50 or 65cc bike. When they get on 85,s they race. Think about 4-6 yr old basketball league , they can’t make a free throw because they can’t even hit the rim.
The classes for kids getting into the sport and teaching them the fundamentals, which have arguably the most consistent and highest turnouts, are pointless?

Regarding the entertainment factor, you literally could say the same for 90% of the classes at local events. The only classes people go up to watch, outside of the ones they know people in, are 250A and 450A. People don't go to the track for entertainment; they go because they want to race. Apparently everyone who isn't racing 250A and 450A should just stick to the practice track sharpening their skills.

While you are correct that I wasn't racing 125A in the 90s (because I was born in 91), I was still racing at Aztalan and all of the other Wisconsin tracks in the 90s since I grew up in Madison. I don't remember seeing packed hillsides with news stations so you're probably "remembering" through some rose colored glasses. I will agree that gates were more full back then, but they still had the youth classes so I'm not seeing the connection.
1
1
4/21/2021 12:08pm
Seriously 47 125a riders wo for 8 Laps, brings 3,000 people threw the gate. We bought a new 60k skid loader , bought 40 truck loads of woods chips, generators, weed wackers, new 2 way radios,built a 2 story scoring tower with nice windows. From race day profits. The 125 A class brought the excitement, people bought bikes, 2 full gates of 125 b, 4 full gates of 125c. 50- 65 classes that’s nice, but they don’t bring new people into the sport or not many. Even on practice days, the 50-65 riders think the track is too rough, dusty,too many rocks, too hot or cold,etc. We walk the whole track and pick rocks, b4 we ride. Then burn 2-3 tanks of fuel and think it’s awesome, even tho it’s hard pack with clay dust, deep square holes everywhere.
1
4
yak651
Posts
8879
Joined
8/26/2006
Location
Appleton, WI, USA
Fantasy
4/21/2021 12:29pm
crusher773 wrote:
I don't know what races you are watching but those 50 and 65 races are just as good as anything. You can tell this guy has...
I don't know what races you are watching but those 50 and 65 races are just as good as anything. You can tell this guy has no kids. Cutting those classes is a terrible idea that would never work.
Yeah I don't think he's been to a race in a while. I'm totally impressed with todays 65 and 85 riders. Kids are going bigger than the 125A class he keeps talking about in the '90s and with more style.
Example A...
1
4/21/2021 12:54pm
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term...
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term growth? Do that and you'll have a really short race day in 5-10 years. Plus, where would they get practice for LL qualifiers since that's the only place they should race, according to your argument.
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that...
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that is even average racing entertainment . Even at the LL national. Maybe you didn’t race 125A in the 90,s with full gates. Spectators covered the hillsides, local News station at ever race. And this is in Packer nation area. If you want to grow the sport, give people a reason to participate. Nobody is interested in watching a rich kid on a 50 or 65cc bike. When they get on 85,s they race. Think about 4-6 yr old basketball league , they can’t make a free throw because they can’t even hit the rim.
The classes for kids getting into the sport and teaching them the fundamentals, which have arguably the most consistent and highest turnouts, are pointless? Regarding the...
The classes for kids getting into the sport and teaching them the fundamentals, which have arguably the most consistent and highest turnouts, are pointless?

Regarding the entertainment factor, you literally could say the same for 90% of the classes at local events. The only classes people go up to watch, outside of the ones they know people in, are 250A and 450A. People don't go to the track for entertainment; they go because they want to race. Apparently everyone who isn't racing 250A and 450A should just stick to the practice track sharpening their skills.

While you are correct that I wasn't racing 125A in the 90s (because I was born in 91), I was still racing at Aztalan and all of the other Wisconsin tracks in the 90s since I grew up in Madison. I don't remember seeing packed hillsides with news stations so you're probably "remembering" through some rose colored glasses. I will agree that gates were more full back then, but they still had the youth classes so I'm not seeing the connection.
Denmark with the natural amp theater, great spectator viewing, just outside of Green Bay. News crews only film a part of 2 classes, interview a random rider then leave. A track in the Up Mi. called Republic it ran races to fund the fire dept, had a news crew there. I got 1st gate pick, bungee start. I hv my head turned watching his hand pull the pin, I can’t stop laughing. Perfect jump, shifts I,m in the 1st turn the rest are way back. Big storm had 40 yards of water standing on a straight away, Noleen yz125 screaming. Standing I whipped it left coming into the berm, front end washed out. I left it wo until I flew over the berm. The news crew was laughing there asses off, saying that was awesome, Thx. We wanted to get a great shot and that was a doozy. What does a 50 cc rider bring, oh I’m learning how to ride. That’s nice, go to a field or practice track and learn. Your embarrassing kid, joking.
1
7

The Shop

4/21/2021 1:49pm
crusher773 wrote:
I don't know what races you are watching but those 50 and 65 races are just as good as anything. You can tell this guy has...
I don't know what races you are watching but those 50 and 65 races are just as good as anything. You can tell this guy has no kids. Cutting those classes is a terrible idea that would never work.
yak651 wrote:
Yeah I don't think he's been to a race in a while. I'm totally impressed with todays 65 and 85 riders. Kids are going bigger than...
Yeah I don't think he's been to a race in a while. I'm totally impressed with todays 65 and 85 riders. Kids are going bigger than the 125A class he keeps talking about in the '90s and with more style.
Example A...
Besides the 2 rich kids from Wi. That live at ClubMx. Who now can beat Ezerins he won everything at lake Geneva sx, beat jimmy Gadis etc there 15 rnds . Red Bud night race 125,250, +25 every moto. Near full gates at Byron. Jr Jackson x factory Suzuki, Hoffmaster, 4 states fast riders. Won AX races. On stock RM,s. His practice track was made with a wheel borrow in Milwaukee. I,m talking about 50cc riders mainly, no clutch, auto trans. Cheap shot that the tracks use them for a cuteness factor. Wait til you hv a clutch and trans to shift, at least. Yes 85cc class hauls, modjewski, Ezerins, Garro I think they all had top 3 moto scores at LL.
6
user760a
Posts
1206
Joined
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Location
Shelby, NC, USA
4/21/2021 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 4/21/2021 1:58pm
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
2
crusher773
Posts
2023
Joined
12/23/2009
Location
Coweta, OK, USA
4/21/2021 2:00pm
Yeah honestly I couldn't care less what local pros are racing where. I don't care a bit and tracks that cater to pros in design I think hurts their turnouts. I don't know anyone that follows the pro riders around to wherever they are racing. Really don't care, not there for them. We are there for us. I don't think the pro lineup is bringing in anything extra to the gate.
5
4/21/2021 2:20pm
True, current pro racing is too boring with the 4-st. Local tracks same thing, spectators are not interested. It was different, get down to staging. And the big hills on the left and rt and the area around you had a lot of people and energy. You couldn’t wait to get on the gate.
4
bh
Posts
949
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Location
Piedmont, SC, USA
4/21/2021 2:22pm
user760a wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the...
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and do 5 laps and you come back and do another 5 laps in an hour.
chump6784
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1776
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Location
AU
4/21/2021 2:23pm
A typical local race day where I live is usually this:
50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride
50cc division 2
65cc 7-u10 years
65cc 10-u12 years
85cc 9-11
85cc 12-15
Junior lites - 125/150 2 stroke, 250f
Senior 250
Senior 450
Vets
Open
Each class gets a 4 lap practice and 3 motos. Seniors get more laps than juniors. If classes are graded they are run together and scored separately. Sometimes junior age groups will be combined if possible.

To the guys promoting. You say you have to run multiple classes to get more entry fees to make money however, you have multiple people here saying they don't turn up because of the multiple classes, long days and lack of ride time. Have you tried running a condensed program as above to entice more riders? Advertise the class list prior so people know what they are signing up for and see how it goes.
In the example above the juniors usually ride 2 classes or 65 and 85, the seniors run their bike size class and open or vet and bike size class. This gives people a chance to run 2 classes and a reduced schedule. This is how tracks have run since I started racing in the late 90's

1
slowoldman
Posts
84
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12/21/2015
Location
Wendell, NC, USA
4/21/2021 2:31pm
mxtech1 wrote:
I’ve mentioned this before, too many classes result in a 12 hour long race day for maybe 15 to 20 minutes of track time. In my...
I’ve mentioned this before, too many classes result in a 12 hour long race day for maybe 15 to 20 minutes of track time.

In my opinion, trim it down to:
A
B
C
Vet
125 two stroke
Women's
85cc
65cc
50cc

Let the big bikes run two 15 minute motos + 1 lap.

The problem is all the promoters want the AMA sanctioned event which forces them to run all the other 20 classes

*Edit - forgot to include Women's class
Love it! Just break up the VET class and the 125 class as I race both. Lol. I’m an old dude with a 125. Love it! 👍
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
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Location
The Villages, FL, USA
4/21/2021 4:06pm
chump6784 wrote:
A typical local race day where I live is usually this: 50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride 50cc division 2 65cc 7-u10 years 65cc 10-u12...
A typical local race day where I live is usually this:
50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride
50cc division 2
65cc 7-u10 years
65cc 10-u12 years
85cc 9-11
85cc 12-15
Junior lites - 125/150 2 stroke, 250f
Senior 250
Senior 450
Vets
Open
Each class gets a 4 lap practice and 3 motos. Seniors get more laps than juniors. If classes are graded they are run together and scored separately. Sometimes junior age groups will be combined if possible.

To the guys promoting. You say you have to run multiple classes to get more entry fees to make money however, you have multiple people here saying they don't turn up because of the multiple classes, long days and lack of ride time. Have you tried running a condensed program as above to entice more riders? Advertise the class list prior so people know what they are signing up for and see how it goes.
In the example above the juniors usually ride 2 classes or 65 and 85, the seniors run their bike size class and open or vet and bike size class. This gives people a chance to run 2 classes and a reduced schedule. This is how tracks have run since I started racing in the late 90's

I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to 300 entries which I would consider a pretty good day, you'd need 27 riders in every class.

The way those classes are set up it would be hard for many kids to run 2 classes without having 2 bikes. Most kids are on a 50 or 65 because it's the correct size for them. Forcing them to get a bigger bike just to run another class isn't a good idea imo. Many kids here want to run 2 and sometimes 3 classes. But most want 1 bike to race a second class.

I'm 64 and would have no business running a Vet class thats 40 and up. That doesn't sound furn to me.
And you're running 3 motos per class, so I'm not sure how much time that you're saving.

But if a promoter wants to try a radical class change like that, give it a shot, maybe it'll work.

The trick would be adding enough new riders to make up for the loss of entries. As I've said there's just no easy answer.

user760a
Posts
1206
Joined
9/15/2008
Location
Shelby, NC, USA
4/21/2021 4:43pm
user760a wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the...
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
bh wrote:
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and...
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and do 5 laps and you come back and do another 5 laps in an hour.
LOOL. you just nailed it. That is exactly where this took place. The wait between sessions is closer to two hours. Then there is the random half hour track maintenance ....during the middle of a practice day. I said IM DONE
2
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
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6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
4/21/2021 5:37pm
user760a wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the...
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
bh wrote:
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and...
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and do 5 laps and you come back and do another 5 laps in an hour.
user760a wrote:
LOOL. you just nailed it. That is exactly where this took place. The wait between sessions is closer to two hours. Then there is the random...
LOOL. you just nailed it. That is exactly where this took place. The wait between sessions is closer to two hours. Then there is the random half hour track maintenance ....during the middle of a practice day. I said IM DONE
Here we do 15 min sessions:

A/B
85/65
C/D
50cc/Playbike
Vet plus 40

And never Quads. Quad MX is almost dead anyway.
bh
Posts
949
Joined
12/25/2016
Location
Piedmont, SC, USA
4/21/2021 5:38pm
user760a wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the...
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
bh wrote:
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and...
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and do 5 laps and you come back and do another 5 laps in an hour.
user760a wrote:
LOOL. you just nailed it. That is exactly where this took place. The wait between sessions is closer to two hours. Then there is the random...
LOOL. you just nailed it. That is exactly where this took place. The wait between sessions is closer to two hours. Then there is the random half hour track maintenance ....during the middle of a practice day. I said IM DONE
Yea thankfully I only go there maybe twice a ear and its a good change of pace but i get pretty frustrated with how they run things. especially how they just let iron city sit there and rot instead of selling it to someone. Iron city is their best track imo.

I feel bad for you guys up there because there arent many options other than that. well i guess you guys have that new moto 40 place but other than that seems pretty scarce. Thankfully I live near the shoals and can ride there at least 4 days a week if I want to.
yz133rider
Posts
5028
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8/1/2013
Location
Avondale, PA, USA
4/21/2021 7:54pm
Indy mxer wrote:
Here we do 15 min sessions:

A/B
85/65
C/D
50cc/Playbike
Vet plus 40

And never Quads. Quad MX is almost dead anyway.
So that’s one session every 1.5hrs. So if you are there for 6 hours you’ll get a total of 1 hour on the track.
chump6784
Posts
1776
Joined
5/9/2011
Location
AU
4/21/2021 10:33pm
chump6784 wrote:
A typical local race day where I live is usually this: 50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride 50cc division 2 65cc 7-u10 years 65cc 10-u12...
A typical local race day where I live is usually this:
50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride
50cc division 2
65cc 7-u10 years
65cc 10-u12 years
85cc 9-11
85cc 12-15
Junior lites - 125/150 2 stroke, 250f
Senior 250
Senior 450
Vets
Open
Each class gets a 4 lap practice and 3 motos. Seniors get more laps than juniors. If classes are graded they are run together and scored separately. Sometimes junior age groups will be combined if possible.

To the guys promoting. You say you have to run multiple classes to get more entry fees to make money however, you have multiple people here saying they don't turn up because of the multiple classes, long days and lack of ride time. Have you tried running a condensed program as above to entice more riders? Advertise the class list prior so people know what they are signing up for and see how it goes.
In the example above the juniors usually ride 2 classes or 65 and 85, the seniors run their bike size class and open or vet and bike size class. This gives people a chance to run 2 classes and a reduced schedule. This is how tracks have run since I started racing in the late 90's

Indy mxer wrote:
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to...
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to 300 entries which I would consider a pretty good day, you'd need 27 riders in every class.

The way those classes are set up it would be hard for many kids to run 2 classes without having 2 bikes. Most kids are on a 50 or 65 because it's the correct size for them. Forcing them to get a bigger bike just to run another class isn't a good idea imo. Many kids here want to run 2 and sometimes 3 classes. But most want 1 bike to race a second class.

I'm 64 and would have no business running a Vet class thats 40 and up. That doesn't sound furn to me.
And you're running 3 motos per class, so I'm not sure how much time that you're saving.

But if a promoter wants to try a radical class change like that, give it a shot, maybe it'll work.

The trick would be adding enough new riders to make up for the loss of entries. As I've said there's just no easy answer.

The above schedule isn't about shortening the day, it's about getting gate drops, it's still an all day event. There is no magic answer but you have to give to get. If you want more gate drops and time on the track you have to reduce classes. I'd say most classes at the bigger clubs around here would get around 20 entries per class on average. I've done club days with over 30 guys on the grid in the 250 class

As for kids riding 2 different size bikes we usually find a kid will start on a 50 then when they are big enough will add the 65. Eventually they outgrow the 50 and by that stage can handle an 85, even if it needs the suspension lowered for a bit too help them touch. Eventually they out grow the 65 and so on.
I don't get the reasoning behind having no place in a 40+ class for yourself. My wife races and is slow. We run vets and ladies together and she'll usually get lapped in a 5 lap race. She holds her line and the fast guys go round her. I usually give her a "wooo" as I'm going past just to be a smart ass. Other older guys are in the same boat, they might get lapped by the front runners but have their own race going on in the back of the pack.
I guess you gotta decide if you want 2 motos per day racing against 5 people or 3 gate drops with a full grid
bh
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949
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12/25/2016
Location
Piedmont, SC, USA
4/22/2021 2:25am
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term...
You want to eliminate the 50cc and 65cc classes at the local for a shorter tract day, and expect the sport to have sustainable long term growth? Do that and you'll have a really short race day in 5-10 years. Plus, where would they get practice for LL qualifiers since that's the only place they should race, according to your argument.
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that...
Not eliminate for a shorter day, dump the classes because there pointless. They can sharpen there skills on practice track days. You can hardly say that is even average racing entertainment . Even at the LL national. Maybe you didn’t race 125A in the 90,s with full gates. Spectators covered the hillsides, local News station at ever race. And this is in Packer nation area. If you want to grow the sport, give people a reason to participate. Nobody is interested in watching a rich kid on a 50 or 65cc bike. When they get on 85,s they race. Think about 4-6 yr old basketball league , they can’t make a free throw because they can’t even hit the rim.
The classes for kids getting into the sport and teaching them the fundamentals, which have arguably the most consistent and highest turnouts, are pointless? Regarding the...
The classes for kids getting into the sport and teaching them the fundamentals, which have arguably the most consistent and highest turnouts, are pointless?

Regarding the entertainment factor, you literally could say the same for 90% of the classes at local events. The only classes people go up to watch, outside of the ones they know people in, are 250A and 450A. People don't go to the track for entertainment; they go because they want to race. Apparently everyone who isn't racing 250A and 450A should just stick to the practice track sharpening their skills.

While you are correct that I wasn't racing 125A in the 90s (because I was born in 91), I was still racing at Aztalan and all of the other Wisconsin tracks in the 90s since I grew up in Madison. I don't remember seeing packed hillsides with news stations so you're probably "remembering" through some rose colored glasses. I will agree that gates were more full back then, but they still had the youth classes so I'm not seeing the connection.
+1 mini classes and beginner classes are the only classes in my area that have consistent turnout. Maybe 10 riders or so per class. They are what keep it on life support. Seems to be a connection between when these mini kids grow up and when beginners get good enough to realize the racing is terrible and the day is really long and boring.
1
roninho
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IT
4/22/2021 2:53am
I race local & regional. Which means over here (Netherlands) racing a clubrace (local) and racing in a competition between 8 clubs/circuits within a 1 hour radius.

Haven't raced much recently due to Corona, but the last 2 races this was how it was done:
Intention is to have races with a lot of riders in it, but only if it is ok in terms of speed gap.
If there is a low turnout in a certain class they will be combined with a similar group in terms of speed. If that cannot be found they will have their own class.

Local:
50cc: 5 riders
65+85: 18 riders
Hobby: 37 riders
125cc: 20 riders
250cc: 15 riders
MX1 & 40+: 16 riders

Regional:
50cc: 7 riders
85cc + woman: 24 riders
125cc: 50 riders
250cc: 44 riders
450cc: 32 riders
45+: 47 riders

If there are 2 groups mentioned in one race, it means both groups ride for their own classification together.
If there are more then 50 riders or a big performance gap the class is split. Depending on how big the groups are some different combo's are made. For example now it was 85+woman, but often it is 45+ and woman together. Not this time since there were 47 allready in that class.

Normally there is also a super class at the regional races, this is for riders who have a license for the national races, but they didnt race at this regional since there was a national that day.

1
acres951
Posts
234
Joined
8/14/2016
Location
CA
4/22/2021 4:33am
chump6784 wrote:
A typical local race day where I live is usually this: 50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride 50cc division 2 65cc 7-u10 years 65cc 10-u12...
A typical local race day where I live is usually this:
50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride
50cc division 2
65cc 7-u10 years
65cc 10-u12 years
85cc 9-11
85cc 12-15
Junior lites - 125/150 2 stroke, 250f
Senior 250
Senior 450
Vets
Open
Each class gets a 4 lap practice and 3 motos. Seniors get more laps than juniors. If classes are graded they are run together and scored separately. Sometimes junior age groups will be combined if possible.

To the guys promoting. You say you have to run multiple classes to get more entry fees to make money however, you have multiple people here saying they don't turn up because of the multiple classes, long days and lack of ride time. Have you tried running a condensed program as above to entice more riders? Advertise the class list prior so people know what they are signing up for and see how it goes.
In the example above the juniors usually ride 2 classes or 65 and 85, the seniors run their bike size class and open or vet and bike size class. This gives people a chance to run 2 classes and a reduced schedule. This is how tracks have run since I started racing in the late 90's

Indy mxer wrote:
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to...
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to 300 entries which I would consider a pretty good day, you'd need 27 riders in every class.

The way those classes are set up it would be hard for many kids to run 2 classes without having 2 bikes. Most kids are on a 50 or 65 because it's the correct size for them. Forcing them to get a bigger bike just to run another class isn't a good idea imo. Many kids here want to run 2 and sometimes 3 classes. But most want 1 bike to race a second class.

I'm 64 and would have no business running a Vet class thats 40 and up. That doesn't sound furn to me.
And you're running 3 motos per class, so I'm not sure how much time that you're saving.

But if a promoter wants to try a radical class change like that, give it a shot, maybe it'll work.

The trick would be adding enough new riders to make up for the loss of entries. As I've said there's just no easy answer.

chump6784 wrote:
The above schedule isn't about shortening the day, it's about getting gate drops, it's still an all day event. There is no magic answer but you...
The above schedule isn't about shortening the day, it's about getting gate drops, it's still an all day event. There is no magic answer but you have to give to get. If you want more gate drops and time on the track you have to reduce classes. I'd say most classes at the bigger clubs around here would get around 20 entries per class on average. I've done club days with over 30 guys on the grid in the 250 class

As for kids riding 2 different size bikes we usually find a kid will start on a 50 then when they are big enough will add the 65. Eventually they outgrow the 50 and by that stage can handle an 85, even if it needs the suspension lowered for a bit too help them touch. Eventually they out grow the 65 and so on.
I don't get the reasoning behind having no place in a 40+ class for yourself. My wife races and is slow. We run vets and ladies together and she'll usually get lapped in a 5 lap race. She holds her line and the fast guys go round her. I usually give her a "wooo" as I'm going past just to be a smart ass. Other older guys are in the same boat, they might get lapped by the front runners but have their own race going on in the back of the pack.
I guess you gotta decide if you want 2 motos per day racing against 5 people or 3 gate drops with a full grid
I like the sound of the schedule you guys run.

I think it comes down to your last sentence. There have been a few people in this thread state they don’t want to race lots of people and not do well they’d rather race fewer and do well. Society in a nutshell I guess.

Even in my younger days I always preferred finishing mid pack and battling the whole Moto than coming in top 3 in a class of 5-6 guys.

Also, the point was sort of missed that your schedule allows for 4 laps of practice and 3 Motos per class, 3 motos sounds awesome.
2
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
4/22/2021 4:41am
Indy mxer wrote:
Here we do 15 min sessions:

A/B
85/65
C/D
50cc/Playbike
Vet plus 40

And never Quads. Quad MX is almost dead anyway.
yz133rider wrote:
So that’s one session every 1.5hrs. So if you are there for 6 hours you’ll get a total of 1 hour on the track.
Yep. Can't argue with your math. lol
Indy mxer
Posts
1870
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
The Villages, FL, USA
4/22/2021 5:08am
chump6784 wrote:
A typical local race day where I live is usually this: 50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride 50cc division 2 65cc 7-u10 years 65cc 10-u12...
A typical local race day where I live is usually this:
50cc demo - youngsters learning to ride
50cc division 2
65cc 7-u10 years
65cc 10-u12 years
85cc 9-11
85cc 12-15
Junior lites - 125/150 2 stroke, 250f
Senior 250
Senior 450
Vets
Open
Each class gets a 4 lap practice and 3 motos. Seniors get more laps than juniors. If classes are graded they are run together and scored separately. Sometimes junior age groups will be combined if possible.

To the guys promoting. You say you have to run multiple classes to get more entry fees to make money however, you have multiple people here saying they don't turn up because of the multiple classes, long days and lack of ride time. Have you tried running a condensed program as above to entice more riders? Advertise the class list prior so people know what they are signing up for and see how it goes.
In the example above the juniors usually ride 2 classes or 65 and 85, the seniors run their bike size class and open or vet and bike size class. This gives people a chance to run 2 classes and a reduced schedule. This is how tracks have run since I started racing in the late 90's

Indy mxer wrote:
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to...
I don't see that working here. Maybe it works there becuase thats how they've always done it. You have 11 classes listed, so to get to 300 entries which I would consider a pretty good day, you'd need 27 riders in every class.

The way those classes are set up it would be hard for many kids to run 2 classes without having 2 bikes. Most kids are on a 50 or 65 because it's the correct size for them. Forcing them to get a bigger bike just to run another class isn't a good idea imo. Many kids here want to run 2 and sometimes 3 classes. But most want 1 bike to race a second class.

I'm 64 and would have no business running a Vet class thats 40 and up. That doesn't sound furn to me.
And you're running 3 motos per class, so I'm not sure how much time that you're saving.

But if a promoter wants to try a radical class change like that, give it a shot, maybe it'll work.

The trick would be adding enough new riders to make up for the loss of entries. As I've said there's just no easy answer.

chump6784 wrote:
The above schedule isn't about shortening the day, it's about getting gate drops, it's still an all day event. There is no magic answer but you...
The above schedule isn't about shortening the day, it's about getting gate drops, it's still an all day event. There is no magic answer but you have to give to get. If you want more gate drops and time on the track you have to reduce classes. I'd say most classes at the bigger clubs around here would get around 20 entries per class on average. I've done club days with over 30 guys on the grid in the 250 class

As for kids riding 2 different size bikes we usually find a kid will start on a 50 then when they are big enough will add the 65. Eventually they outgrow the 50 and by that stage can handle an 85, even if it needs the suspension lowered for a bit too help them touch. Eventually they out grow the 65 and so on.
I don't get the reasoning behind having no place in a 40+ class for yourself. My wife races and is slow. We run vets and ladies together and she'll usually get lapped in a 5 lap race. She holds her line and the fast guys go round her. I usually give her a "wooo" as I'm going past just to be a smart ass. Other older guys are in the same boat, they might get lapped by the front runners but have their own race going on in the back of the pack.
I guess you gotta decide if you want 2 motos per day racing against 5 people or 3 gate drops with a full grid
I just don't agree with your logic on kids. Over here a kid shows up on a new KTM 50 he wants more than 3 motos. They want all they can get. Same with 65s and 85s. One class is not enough.
And as a promoter I can tell you the youth classes pay the bills more than any. They bring the whole family.

As far as the Vet class, I ride plus 60. There's usually about 5 or 6 guys in my class but we always run with another class. Most promoters are very good about combining classes. So we have pretty full gates as well.

I don't mind running with younger guys, it's fun and I do it all the time on practice days. I just don't want to be scored against them. Same thing when I run a 5K. They also class by age, as most amateur sports do.

All you're doing is just moving the chess pieces around.

As I've said, making the race day shorter is something we all want. But getting that done requires tradeoffs, there's no magic bullet here.

Also it varies by area. Our local track, LTM in Casey IL gets over 400 entries every race. Many times 500 plus. The track is awesome and the promoter is a good dude. He's always working to improve the product. Which I feel is the key to his success.
1
donniehale64
Posts
7
Joined
8/7/2020
Location
Western Grove, AR, USA
4/22/2021 6:19am
I guess I’m the minority in this situation with all the classes. Me and my two boys race just locally which ain’t real big events. One does two classes and if there was less classes it’d make it hell on me with less time to get everybody where they need to be haha. by the time vet classes get to racing I’m wore out already! It doesn’t seem like our local harescrambles are really a good idea for the kids and I can’t ride 1.5 hours anyways so I’m happy with the current state of racing
1
Jb118117
Posts
5
Joined
4/6/2021
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
4/22/2021 6:35am
What about multiple "promoters" stepping on each others d_#@$? We have like 5 different series here and none of these guys are working together, and seemingly...
What about multiple "promoters" stepping on each others d_#@$? We have like 5 different series here and none of these guys are working together, and seemingly intentionally scheduling their race on the same weekend as another. That's a problem here. It literally killed District 29.
We have this same problem in Florida. It's like it's a competition between them to see who gets the better turn out. If they worked together, and didn't schedule on top of each other, they would probably make more money with better turn outs. If there are 2-3 races on the same weekend you may only get 6-8 per class. But if there was only 1 race you may get 20+.
JustMX
Posts
5299
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
4/22/2021 6:41am

Bh, you keep mentioning the strength of cross country race numbers, and credit that to longer races and shorter days.

I would agree those points are a small part of the reason, and at the same time state that more of the people making the transition are doing so because they don't have to worry about ridiculous jumps designed to "separate the men from the boys" and the fact that they don't have to have the latest bells and whistles to compete, but can depend more on experience and proper prep to do well.

Where I disagree with a few of you is that the big reason that local races have dropped off is short motos and long days and that a large number of the defectors would come back to local mx racing with the changes you suggest.

you want promoters to completely rip up what they have found works so a few people can have longer moto and race against bigger classes while the promoter risks damage to his bottom line and having to listen to complaints that they are price gouging because they raised prices and cut classes?

While it is nice to wax nostalgic about the good ol' days of full gates in a and b classes and running 15 minute motos on beat out tracks, those days are gone, and they aren't coming back. The sport has changed a lot. Factory contengencies, growing focus on LL's, amateur ponts advancement, and training facilities have changed how developing riders advance to the point that it even affects fast C riders.

That group doesn't race local anymore, and longer motos and fewer gate drops are not going to change that.

The majority of riders that show up at "local" races are recreational. They don't train 5 days a week for mx. A 15.minute moto would wipe them out. They like running multiple classes to get breaks and they like to have more gate drops.

if you look at the races that are doing well in nc/sc and east tn, east bend, Carolina outlaw, and victory sports hot summer nights series, they all cater to that crowd and are the only races doing really well.

Now, with those points said, there is room for promoters to tighten things up a bit. An example would be schoolboy 1 and schoolboy 2 classes both being offered at local races. It is redundant. There are plenty of displacement and unlimited classes offered that those riders still have at least 3 or 4 classes they can race and be competitive in.

The big difference in the tracks that do really well is running a tight program. Start on time, minimize breaks, dial in track prep so track work is minimized, and combine classes in staggered starts when reasonable.





9
Skerby
Posts
1282
Joined
4/9/2013
Location
Mayes County, OK, USA
4/22/2021 7:55am
user760a wrote:
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the...
Without reading the entire thread, I can say that I live in NC and have not raced motocross since my central NY days, back in the 90's to early 2000's, when upstate NY motocross was going big! and what a riot it was.

I moved to NC 16 yrs ago and immediately found that the tracks in the western part of the state were like 2/3 scale tracks, narrow, short, not at all interesting, and turnout was pretty bad. I ended up gravitating toward GNCC and local hare scrambles for that reason.

For a while I would go to "practice " days...but I stopped that a few years ago, after watching two PW50's putt around the track for twenty min, then two quad riders for twenty min, a few 65cc for twenty min, 85cc for twenty min, B and C riders for twenty min. ...Getting to ride for twenty min myself every couple hours is a complete waste of a day in my opinion and I am done with it.

I miss motocross. I really enjoy it when I occasionally get some seat time on a private track here and there....but I am done with the local moto scene. Not interested in standing around all day
bh wrote:
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and...
The practice you just described sounds like a Cathey's creek practice, or any of that group's practices. Everyone and their mom gets to go out and do 5 laps and you come back and do another 5 laps in an hour.
This happened at a track near me recently. Two of the fast guys just rode all day regardless of who was on the track lol. I cant stand this shit. 3 classes max on practice days or Im going out with the 50cc kids, Give the fast groups 30 minutes too.

It would be amazing if there was a single track operator out there who still rode!
Handy_andy_85
Posts
74
Joined
6/15/2020
Location
Wheatfield, IN, USA
4/22/2021 10:33am
You guys think you have it bad? Try being a vet quad racer with the speed of a wounded sloth.

It is hard to even find tracks that allow us to line up and when they do they like to drop us all on the same gate Aged 16-50 of all skill levels.

Its still worth it though because I keep going back for more.
4
4DAIVIPAI2K5
Posts
1125
Joined
12/15/2016
Location
Coshocton, OH, USA
4/22/2021 12:02pm Edited Date/Time 4/22/2021 12:06pm
Come race the Ohio battle races. Our promoters work great together, turn out is usually stacked, people are friendly. 50 & 65 classes are usually the fullest, so some people might be upset about that.
2
bh
Posts
949
Joined
12/25/2016
Location
Piedmont, SC, USA
4/22/2021 3:11pm
JustMX wrote:
Bh, you keep mentioning the strength of cross country race numbers, and credit that to longer races and shorter days. I would agree those points are...

Bh, you keep mentioning the strength of cross country race numbers, and credit that to longer races and shorter days.

I would agree those points are a small part of the reason, and at the same time state that more of the people making the transition are doing so because they don't have to worry about ridiculous jumps designed to "separate the men from the boys" and the fact that they don't have to have the latest bells and whistles to compete, but can depend more on experience and proper prep to do well.

Where I disagree with a few of you is that the big reason that local races have dropped off is short motos and long days and that a large number of the defectors would come back to local mx racing with the changes you suggest.

you want promoters to completely rip up what they have found works so a few people can have longer moto and race against bigger classes while the promoter risks damage to his bottom line and having to listen to complaints that they are price gouging because they raised prices and cut classes?

While it is nice to wax nostalgic about the good ol' days of full gates in a and b classes and running 15 minute motos on beat out tracks, those days are gone, and they aren't coming back. The sport has changed a lot. Factory contengencies, growing focus on LL's, amateur ponts advancement, and training facilities have changed how developing riders advance to the point that it even affects fast C riders.

That group doesn't race local anymore, and longer motos and fewer gate drops are not going to change that.

The majority of riders that show up at "local" races are recreational. They don't train 5 days a week for mx. A 15.minute moto would wipe them out. They like running multiple classes to get breaks and they like to have more gate drops.

if you look at the races that are doing well in nc/sc and east tn, east bend, Carolina outlaw, and victory sports hot summer nights series, they all cater to that crowd and are the only races doing really well.

Now, with those points said, there is room for promoters to tighten things up a bit. An example would be schoolboy 1 and schoolboy 2 classes both being offered at local races. It is redundant. There are plenty of displacement and unlimited classes offered that those riders still have at least 3 or 4 classes they can race and be competitive in.

The big difference in the tracks that do really well is running a tight program. Start on time, minimize breaks, dial in track prep so track work is minimized, and combine classes in staggered starts when reasonable.





You make some good pints for sure. But in my eyes I relate the promoters doing well to the number of potential riders that could show up at the event. I believe with the amount of riders in the area an outlaw race could pull 200-300 riders. And scrolling though the entries they aren’t even close to that.

And imo the training thing is not a factor. If you saw the starting line for the pm Gncc race you would be shocked that some of those guys make it 2 hours much less 3 hours. Really my end goal for my ideal race format would be to make it more like real pro motocross where there is multi dimensional. You have to have to set your pace and not explode, ride consistent, get a decent start, and have real race craft. The local races I see there are only 2 dimensions. Get a good start and ride fast.

I feel like a longer motos would really make the racing better and promote different riding styles. Whereas now it’s just get a start and go. And really I feel like there is a large crowd that really wants long motos and someone needs to go out on a limb and try it out. I really don’t think it could hurt a series like Carolina outlaw where they are maybe at around 50-100 entries. Now if you are a local series that is getting 250-400 you really have no reason to change. But some of these series are really struggling and doing the same old thing year after year.
1
crusher773
Posts
2023
Joined
12/23/2009
Location
Coweta, OK, USA
4/22/2021 9:19pm
You guys think you have it bad? Try being a vet quad racer with the speed of a wounded sloth. It is hard to even find...
You guys think you have it bad? Try being a vet quad racer with the speed of a wounded sloth.

It is hard to even find tracks that allow us to line up and when they do they like to drop us all on the same gate Aged 16-50 of all skill levels.

Its still worth it though because I keep going back for more.
That's cause quads are lame and should all be thrown in a lake.
4
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