Tomac Speaks Track Reform

Zycki11
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Zycki11
Edited Date/Time 3/27/2021 1:11pm
Wonder if this will lead to any changes


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mx 219
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mx 219 3/25/2021 8:35am
3/25/2021 8:35am
No...since he doesn't ride for Roger.
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TriRacer27 3/25/2021 8:48am
3/25/2021 8:48am
It's not that hard guys.

Lot's of 180s with berms
Long rhythm sections
Make the section following 180s such that taking the outside is faster

Tomac's point isn't new. You can be faster than the guy in front of you but with short sections and single-lines in the corners, even if you're 10% faster it's not enough to get a wheel on the guy before the next turn. So you need the corners to have multiple lines so you can combine sections together and not have to get back behind him every corner.
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GangGreen
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GangGreen 3/25/2021 8:54am
3/25/2021 8:54am
Surprised Tomac didn't say anything about the constant track grooming? Supercross tracks used to break-down so much that doing the triple every lap was almost impossible. When you "dumb it down", everyone goes the same speed, and timed practice creates one-lined tracks.


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GForce MMG 3/25/2021 8:56am
3/25/2021 8:56am
Every single person involved with building the tracks knows these things. They even have 50+ proven track designs that produced great racing in the past to copy.

They won't do it.

Sounds like its time for a new track building crew.

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Hank_Thrill
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Hank_Thrill 3/25/2021 9:01am
3/25/2021 9:01am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2021 9:05am
I like berms but I'm also a fan of one flat 180 corner on tracks where guys can go inside and double, then outside and triple. It also makes for good racing. You can just fly 30mph around a flat turn unless there is a Pastrana style berm on the outside ala his St. Louis 2009 designed track.
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mattyhamz2 3/25/2021 9:03am
3/25/2021 9:03am
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I like berms but I'm also a fan of one flat 180 corner on tracks where guys can go inside and double, then outside and triple...
I like berms but I'm also a fan of one flat 180 corner on tracks where guys can go inside and double, then outside and triple. It also makes for good racing. You can just fly 30mph around a flat turn unless there is a Pastrana style berm on the outside ala his St. Louis 2009 designed track.
That track was pretty damn gnarly! I'd love to see that get remade for the guys today. That would be interesting.
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Zycki11
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Zycki11 3/25/2021 9:17am
3/25/2021 9:17am
Hank_Thrill wrote:
I like berms but I'm also a fan of one flat 180 corner on tracks where guys can go inside and double, then outside and triple...
I like berms but I'm also a fan of one flat 180 corner on tracks where guys can go inside and double, then outside and triple. It also makes for good racing. You can just fly 30mph around a flat turn unless there is a Pastrana style berm on the outside ala his St. Louis 2009 designed track.
mattyhamz2 wrote:
That track was pretty damn gnarly! I'd love to see that get remade for the guys today. That would be interesting.
Way way too much dirt compared to today. In person that track was amazing to walk and see the design. Today it seems as though the designers/builders all use obstacles from amateur day.
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Sully22
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Sully22 3/25/2021 9:24am
3/25/2021 9:24am
can't they design 90 corners to have more than one fast, flat track line everyone takes? Why make the track 20'+ wide in those corners, pile up all that dirt on an outside berm, and then no one ever uses it in a race?
Zycki11
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Zycki11 3/25/2021 9:30am
3/25/2021 9:30am
Sully22 wrote:
can't they design 90 corners to have more than one fast, flat track line everyone takes? Why make the track 20'+ wide in those corners, pile...
can't they design 90 corners to have more than one fast, flat track line everyone takes? Why make the track 20'+ wide in those corners, pile up all that dirt on an outside berm, and then no one ever uses it in a race?
Or place a hump on the inside to slow that line down. Another issue the track is having is timed qualifying. All the riders find the fast race line and just hammer that line. It was much better before without dart fish and having race qualifying. This promoted different lines and creativity. Today lacks all of the above
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ShawdowGlen
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ShawdowGlen 3/25/2021 9:31am
3/25/2021 9:31am
I'm all for it.... Make the tracks more technical too. The blip, blip, blip of the throttle thru a rhythm section is boring.
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kage173
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kage173 3/25/2021 9:35am
3/25/2021 9:35am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2021 9:36am
The 2 passed 94 on the outside of a flat 90 degree turn after the whoops....just saying.
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Steve125
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Steve125 3/25/2021 9:41am
3/25/2021 9:41am
All rhythm sections are short when they're tripling out of the corner and quading into the next turn. Hard to make obstacles these Pro's on 450s can't soar over, unless you install more Wall jumps which most people seem to dislike.
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evansteinberg 3/25/2021 9:45am
3/25/2021 9:45am
kage173 wrote:
The 2 passed 94 on the outside of a flat 90 degree turn after the whoops....just saying.
Yeah because Ken was probably crying inside his helmet by that point.
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AH387
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AH387 3/25/2021 9:53am
3/25/2021 9:53am
Steve125 wrote:
All rhythm sections are short when they're tripling out of the corner and quading into the next turn. Hard to make obstacles these Pro's on 450s...
All rhythm sections are short when they're tripling out of the corner and quading into the next turn. Hard to make obstacles these Pro's on 450s can't soar over, unless you install more Wall jumps which most people seem to dislike.
I agree. I feel like with how good the 450s (and 250Fs) have become, everyone is able to pretty much do all of the same sections and that alone makes a track 1-lined. 1 guy decides to quad something and then everyone else runs the same line and quads the section. Very rarely is there a combo or certain jump that only 1 or 2 guys can make, that ends up making up significant time. Even in last week's qualifying, I think KRoc's best time was put down when he did not land on the back-side of that 2nd table. So even though that track was cool and had some different combos, it really didn't end up separating the guys at all. You have a man-made track on a stadium floor and these guys are on bikes that produce more than enough power to jump almost any sane obstacle, plus they are hooking right out of the turn, unlike the old days where narrow powerbands and traction was more of a factor in the racing (which lead to different lines etc.) Not saying that nothing can be improved but it's not that easy to do, I don't think. That's where I think SX is limited anymore as far as making the track for good racing, compared to Outdoors.
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soggy
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soggy 3/25/2021 10:02am
3/25/2021 10:02am
kage173 wrote:
The 2 passed 94 on the outside of a flat 90 degree turn after the whoops....just saying.
No he passed him in the whoops and was already ahead going into that corner
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cartel
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cartel 3/25/2021 10:34am
3/25/2021 10:34am
Firstly, your phone battery is perfectly charged.

Second, as an armchair analyst speculating behind the safety of monitor and keyboard, I totally agree. And I preface my statement as such, since, I have no idea how other riders feel about his statements. I'm not going to make the supposition that C-Group 250 riders want a track that is, on paper, more dangerous. That said, it seems like tracks a decade ago were, in fact, more exciting, not to mention that a well designed track would be safe in some capacity for all riders, regardless of their skill level or displacement assuming they hit the low benchmark to qualify.

Does anyone have statistics for these 'golden ages' of track design VS. injuries?

I've also heard that part of of the difficulty in designing tracks this year was the nature of the stadiums they're in as a result of Covid. How much truth is there to that?
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tek14
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tek14 3/25/2021 10:40am
3/25/2021 10:40am
Tomac is right on this one.
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Frodad78
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Frodad78 3/25/2021 10:41am
3/25/2021 10:41am
Who used to build our SX tracks back in the 90s? Was it the same crew?

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gt80rider
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gt80rider 3/25/2021 10:44am
3/25/2021 10:44am
Stop using so many standardized obstacles.... the reason these guys can pin every track is because every obstacle is low, non peaked, and just like their practice track.... tracks now days are low and fast, not rough and gnarly.... easy tracks hurt the top riders.... mc was once asked "what's the perfect track to beat you?" and he said something like an oval, something super easy with no obstacles.... et3 has a point..... mild arenacross tracks don't cut it for world class supercross....
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PNWRider
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PNWRider 3/25/2021 10:45am
3/25/2021 10:45am
2-strokes.

Or 250F only. Regional has to have stock engines, premier class allows modified engines. Save the 450’s for outdoors...or don’t, and use the same stock/mod as SX.
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Jordan421 3/25/2021 11:08am
3/25/2021 11:08am
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Surprised Tomac didn't say anything about the constant track grooming? [/b] Supercross tracks used to break-down so much that doing the triple every lap was almost...
Surprised Tomac didn't say anything about the constant track grooming? Supercross tracks used to break-down so much that doing the triple every lap was almost impossible. When you "dumb it down", everyone goes the same speed, and timed practice creates one-lined tracks.


Making something safer is dumbing it down?
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RichieW13
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RichieW13 3/25/2021 11:27am
3/25/2021 11:27am
GForce MMG wrote:
Every single person involved with building the tracks knows these things. They even have 50+ proven track designs that produced great racing in the past to...
Every single person involved with building the tracks knows these things. They even have 50+ proven track designs that produced great racing in the past to copy.

They won't do it.

Sounds like its time for a new track building crew.

I can't imagine they are doing it just to be obstinate. There must be a reason that they won't/can't build the tracks that are more racy.
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Crossup
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Crossup 3/25/2021 11:46am
3/25/2021 11:46am
Wide sweepers...


ShawdowGlen
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ShawdowGlen 3/25/2021 12:34pm
3/25/2021 12:34pm
Every team has there own supercross track to practice on, there are no surprises anymore. said it before, it's gotten to be like gymnastics precision. How about just keep the track designs unknown until a few days before the event. Throw in a bunch of random stuff and weird technical sections. It's time to mix things up because we're starting to edge toward NASCAR boredom. Start grates, start assists...gone... same type of rhythm sections over and over again...gone! How about make a whole side of the stadium random sized/spaced whoops? It's time to slow everything down too. Sick of seeing the injury report every week.
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AE448
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AE448 3/25/2021 12:39pm
3/25/2021 12:39pm
Something needs to change. Nowadays the bikes are so good and easy to ride that these guys are just following each other most of the race when the tracks don't allow for creativity or majorly different line choice. When was the last time we genuinely saw a great out and out supercross battle on track? Depends somewhat on the riders too but still
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mxridr
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mxridr 3/25/2021 12:41pm
3/25/2021 12:41pm
Supercross began as Motocross inside of a stadium. It has turned into a circus clown show now. The perfectionism of the tracks with the power of the 450s to clear any obstacle with the blip of the throttle is boring. The talent of the riders and performance of the machinery has far outgrown the confines of a stadium. Motocross > Circuscross
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TropicPilot 3/25/2021 12:55pm
3/25/2021 12:55pm
Track obstacles that separate the riders, just like a lot of people have already stated.

I'd put the premier class on 250s. Factory 450s are just too much bike for the stadiums. Let the big dogs eat outdoors only.

Maybe make the regional classes a 250stock class. I'd rather see the regions on 125s, but we all know that will never happen.
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zookrider62!
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zookrider62! 3/25/2021 12:56pm
3/25/2021 12:56pm
GangGreen wrote:
[b]Surprised Tomac didn't say anything about the constant track grooming? [/b] Supercross tracks used to break-down so much that doing the triple every lap was almost...
Surprised Tomac didn't say anything about the constant track grooming? Supercross tracks used to break-down so much that doing the triple every lap was almost impossible. When you "dumb it down", everyone goes the same speed, and timed practice creates one-lined tracks.


Jordan421 wrote:
Making something safer is dumbing it down?
what exactly about a perfectly groomed track makes it safer? Sketchy conditions calls for slower speeds.
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yak651
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yak651 3/25/2021 1:06pm
3/25/2021 1:06pm
All the jumps have shallow angle (would be steep for us vitards) that throw them out not up to show “speed”. Then stupid on/off obstacles that are basically same as riding a flat straight for these guys and they wonder why lap times are 45 seconds...move the tripes/rhythms closer to the corner and steepen them up. Throw them up not out and also make block passing a thing where you can’t clear the obstacle
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Lucifa12345 3/25/2021 1:14pm
3/25/2021 1:14pm
Makes sense to me. These days, a technical track is the only way Tomac can win a race.
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