What makes an hrc, star yamaha, or ktm engine better than some of the lower tier team engines? It seems like at this point its pretty well known what options exist to make an engine fast. Porting and polishing the head, race cams, stroker kit, high compression piston, high strength rod, second injector kit, full exhaust, stronger clutch, race gas, electric water pump…etc. What is a team like star or even pro circuit doing that a lower tier but high budget team like clubmx yamaha cant do?
Is it just the fact of having all of the testers, data specialists, engineers, and money needed working for each rider to get each individual riders bike perfectly set up for them specifically, or are the top tier bikes really getting better parts and much more power than the 2nd tier teams? What are the parts and pieces that make a factory engine great compared to someone with an unlimited budget who was buying parts off the shelf? How close could they get?
Biggest thing i think is transsmissions and ecu. rest is just the unlimited testing the factory guys can do on parts. now days there is not much difference in hp. the facotry guys can maby rev the engines little more.
The money to continue to develop.
Think about how many heads/cams/piston shapes you can go through if you want.
A privateer team has the technology now days, but not the time and money to perfect it in the same way as a factory team.
For example, there is some pictures floating around on the last generation HRC cr125 cylinder and head combo. It has work done to it that a regular tuner never could waste time/money on if you compare the gains vs costs.
Yeah, the mythical factory transmission - according to RC the factory transmission is like putting a manual transmission in your car. 🤣
Joking aside, didn’t Tomac say that he doesn’t like stock 450s because they’re too slow? I think he said they have less power so they can’t pull the longer gears in the factory transmission so you have to shift too much. That makes me think they do have significantly more horsepower.
where have you seen that?
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A new exhaust outlet is machined and pressed in, coolant jackets machined and plugged, cylinder o-ringed, brass ring in the top of the cylinder etc.
Think HRC had two guys along side JMS that worked on that engine every day, and think about how many cylinders/heads that might became door stoppers after trying different things.
And after that, how many different pipes did they test with PC before setteling with a couple of different options for the riders.
Then we have the dyno time just to get the best package on paper just to get out on the test track and hearing that the riders might want something different and then start all over again because dyno numbers/curves don’t always translate in to the feeling on the track.
Those resources is what the large teams have.
Factory motors are one off blueprinted probably
Nothing mythical about it. Factory transmissions create longer lower gears so you have to shift less, have tighter tolerances so there’s less miss shifts/false neutrals and most satellite teams do not have access to them.
I don’t know what RC quote you’re referencing.
All blueprinting means is making sure the parts are all to exact spec. Any decent engine builder should be doing that factory or not
The RC thing is just something he said during a broadcast when they were talking about Roczen using a factory transmission. I thought it was funny.
I think that the final version of a factory motor probably wouldn't cost that much more than something you could get from an engine builder. The cost has already been paid with the R&D. I cant even fathom how much $$ is spent testing this piston with that head, or that piston, with this port job with that exhaust. This ECU tune with that gearing etc. The amount of parts designed, built, tested, tweaked, and either tossed or used has got to be ridiculous. THATS where the true cost is eaten up. Once Chase, or Eli has a setup they choose, the money has already been spent and the cost to build final race setup likely isn't terrible.
RC did actually say that during a race earlier this year. 😀
I think what he was trying to say is that you can tune the trans on these bikes to specific gearing for each track and for each rider. Plus the internal trans parts on the factory bikes get tumbled and coated. Very expensive to do and not many private teams would be able to.
It’s a lot more than that. Parts are matched and balanced. It’s a very tedious, time consuming process.
A factory motor is one optimized to the preferences of the rider. Optimizing an engine takes a lot of time, testing and knowledge, and in some cases, the manufacture of one-off parts (although not all that necessary these days).
Special coatings, porting and polishing come into play. All things anyone can do but putting it all together to suit the rider is what makes them truly “factory.”
As a teaser, the Honda two stroke works cranks with interchangeable weights in them were rated at 10.000$ each back in the late 80’s.
popup pistons and blackjack chips
It has parts that no one can get unless you ride for the team.
I would love to ride with one of those drums. Wonder how much it would cost to make and the benefits. I know most make neutral harder to get into. Anyone ever ride with one?
Pit Row
Are they allowed to run that left case half in AMA?
One factor is also how long the motor will last. A certain part might not cost more, but it works better because it's lighter, but then it does not last as long. When you build an engine with a lot of those parts, that single engine might not be much more expensive, but you have to rebuild it every 10 hours, which adds up over the year.
Just wait until people find out that some of the very top teams in our sport have contracts with third party vendors for engine and suspension modification services.
Everyone has to know that KYB and Showa are third party.
What's the deal with that clutch?
I work for a company that previously had contracts with a Tier 1 automotive company to develop, build, test, and maintain engines for their professional race programs(road course). OEM engineering support along with an extreme amount of testing results in developments that a private team with lower budget and resources would never achieve.
There is a guy that did race fuel development for several mfg's and he does engine development for various factory teams when they call him. Cam profiles/combinations with port shapes/ valve springs etc. He's an engine consultant. Doesn't advertise. Does various motorsports (2 and 4 wheel).
Showa is more second-party, being a Honda/Hitachi subsidiary.
In the 2-stroke era, I was able to know the right person and land a factory suzuki cylinder & pipe. The cylinder was a completely different power-valve design. It ran a stock piston. The pipe was paper thin w/ a Bills big core silencer. The sound of that 125 could make a grown man cry.
I got 2 full seasons out of the mods, before they were used up. Shit was amazing!
Josh pits?
Piston and rings made from unobtainam. & ecu made for that engine only
No. This guy is old. Yamaha hired him when they did the first YZ four strokes. Star used him too.
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