E bike talk

I can see Your point of view.  And I'm sure there will be riders that get hurt jumping jumps they shouldn't be. Just like there have always been.   I know that for me personally ,  getting on my CRF450  back when it first came out,  coming from from my 2 stroke. I was able to jump some jumps easier.  In my case it made me go from still trying the jumps and coming up short every so often. To clearing them clean all of the time. I did crash a ton. But really only 3 times were on jumps.  I was a top 5 B rider on a good day back then.Anybody can buy a 450 and have to learn on it full power. With the electric bikes new riders can turn it down to a safe learning level.   

The threat of physical pain will still weed people out who do not have the skills . I'm sure that You know at least 1 guy who is always sending a jump and  is often not making it. And it wouldn't matter if he was on a 125 or 450. He or she is still going to try that same jump. Maybe track owners will have to be creative to  help protect riders from themselves.  Southwick is a legendary track, and there are only a hand full of jumps on it. Yet it is still a challenging National caliber track.

I think that the Electric power will make some riders safer, and yes, it may also inflate some riders heads into getting them riding over their heads.  I don't know what the answer is. Downhill MTB's  are gravity powered  mostly. And just about anybody can go rent one and head off down a ski slope. With a much lower price of entry.  A few hundred bucks or so for a day and lift ticket. Maybe I'm way off on that pricing. But it's still much less than buying an MX bike.

I love what electric will be able to do. And I know the lack of sound will not save every riding area. But I also know from experience that  sound is the number 1 issue that track owners around me have. And many of them would not have any problems if there was no sound to let people know there was a track.  Think about it. If Your neighbor is constantly doing something that makes loud noises , and you can only hear the noise. If they could do the same thing, and Make it so it did not impact You in any way, wouldn't you be less likely to have an issue with it?  Trail riding, I agree , sound is not going to help that as much as closed course MX tracks. The dust and erosion argument is stronger on trails. But on a closed course it becomes much different.  In times of water shortages I could see dust being a valid issue. But as long as Car washes, and lawn watering are allowed, watering a track and  dust and erosion control  should be an easier to solve issue than sound.  Even a lover of MX can agree that they would not want to listen to bikes 12 hours a day 7 days a week. When the sound issue is gone , a lot of the other reasons  fun police may come up with are going to be harder for them to gain support for.  With the current boom of MTB's there are so many areas to ride right now around me.  If there was a similar level increase of people riding Dirt Bikes that made 0 sound like the MTB's , it would not surprise me to see more electric only MX spots open.     

Excellent topic and descriptive. Being around the sport since the 70’s and seeing all the astonishing improvements in the bikes (especially late 70’s early 80’s), I ask myself; Is the sport growing? Could E-moto help? Can it lower the cost? Could it open up a whole new type of motocross like SX? Perhaps urban tracks? 
 

Since E-moto bikes can be easily tuned, that can help with safety. An entry level E-moto bike under 6k$ US may help bring back a 125 style class. I would posit we need a bike new folks can throw in the back of a truck and come racing for a lot less $. We’ve needed it for a long time. 

Stark with 60-80hp seems too much but if there was option for lighter bike limited to 40hp and maybe even easier price point it could sell with many upsides like almost zero maintenance or replace parts you need mechanic skills. Also we have some great tracks near town area that are closed because noice that could have second life with E-bikes. Sure I will save my 450f but other bike could be E-bike as soon as they hit shop floors. 

E Bikes ruin the sport and remove the soul. E bikes have a place in the sport sure, but they arent the entire sport and wont ever be I do not think. 

You havent ridden one yet huh?

I get where you're coming from, and you make some valid points about the evolution of the sport. But I'd like to weigh in on the topic of tracks. The advent of e-bikes is already revolutionizing accessibility. Just in my vicinity, there's a new track specifically build for e-bikes like the KTM Freeride and Stark. It's right next to residential areas. This is something unheard of where I'm from. Most tracks around here operate 2-3 days a week and never on Sundays. E-bikes make daily riding on this track possible. There's no conceivable scenario where this track would've opened had it been for gas bikes. So while we might debate the pros and cons of the machinery, there's no denying that e-bikes are bringing new opportunities and reshaping the landscape of the sport.

I think e-bikes will do wonders for the sport (more tracks), the only thing is cost, but maybe that is even out over 3years when you don't need to do top-ends etc? 

I have an electric car, it's very fast, but sort of boring, but that's a car. I think on a dirtbike where you jump, corner, tackle the track, obstacles it doesn't make a difference. I never wish downhill MTBs would have roaring engines, it's as cool without the sound.

I guess the biggest 'losers' (maybe they will turn into winners?) is those who are extremely skilled on engine tuning/rebuilds/maintenance, I wonder what is Pro Circuits future? Maybe suspension, chassie and everything else? Maybe they will even expand into areas we don't think of now and Mitch will make even more money? Maybe they will tap into the e-MTB world and sell ultra trick e-parts for mountainbikers?

I don’t support e-bikes, because I don’t support the additional child slave labor in Africa to mine the lithium and cobalt to power the damn things, plus those batteries they use explode and will spontaneously ignite in your garage and burn your house down while you’re sleeping.  They also pollute the Earth when the battery goes bad and they have to dispose of it.   I’m just sayin

Sure there are very real issues with extracting Li, Co etc... Still the damage to the environment is not comparable to the extraction and use of fossil fuels.

Yet you have no idea what you're talking about, I won't spend my day debunking so many lies in so little lines, I will just take this opportunity to remind you that Australia is the world largest Li producer, followed by Chile and China. 0.6% of Li production comes from Africa (similar to US production). Africa holds 1% of Li world reserves. It's probably better if you stick to bikes. I'm just sayin.

How does he think his clothes, phone and shoes are made?  

I don't think you understand how fossil fuels are extracted from the earth. Might want to do some research before making generic statements. 

You forgot the cobalt, which I think he was correct in saying mainly comes from Africa.

Or is that inconvenient ?

Can you "debunk" that fact ?

"Sure there are very real issues with extracting Li, Co etc..."

means that I agree it's not all lies. This first sentence linking Li and Co mining to child labor in Africa is only half a lie, and then it all goes downhill from here.

Issues with Co extraction in DRC have been well documented in scientific literature and mainstream media for years, that's why the industry is moving away from it (for instance in the past couple of years, half of Tesla cars have been using Co-free batteries, using Fe instead, and they're still reducing their Co use).

Either bigred knows that Li and Co ressources, extraction, purification are very different and he is deliberately misleading by stating they are both plagued by the same issues (that are very real for Co) or he has no clue what he's talking about.

Now I don't think that was what OP meant by this thread, and these arguments have already been used to derail every electric thread so I won't pursue this any further. If anybody is truthfully interested in this (as opposed to using falsehoods to justify they do not like ebikes, even though nobody is asking them to justify why they do not like ebikes), make your own thread about it.

You said- " debunking so many lies" & "you have no idea what you are talking about" , when actually the Cobalt part at least was certainly true ( 73% of the world's Cobalt came from DRC in 2022)

So actually - he wasn't telling lies & he did know what he was talking about ( at least concerning Cobalt)

Some of his other comments may also be true , but I can't be bothered to check at the moment 

So how can anyone believe you anymore than bigredmachine ?

Most of this is easy enough to look up and see what is true.  BigRedMachine's post sounds more like somebody repeating something they heard, and Beagle's post sounds like a person that has researched the subject before forming an opinion and   understands what they are talking about and is not just repeating something that they themselves do not know if it is true or false. 

I like motocross. E-Bikes may help the sport grow. Urban tracks?

it’s not an EV it’s a battery operated vehicle … like a toy. Batteries are extremely toxic to the environment and the electricity is still by and large generated through coal … the whole thing is imbecilic. It will never grow the sport and there will never be urban tracks... ever. these things are the smallest niche of a small niche sport. 

KX100 size big wheeled motocross bike with battery and motor is what I’d like to see.  

Cope

Sad the hoops that are having to be jumped through on this planet to keep the ever increasing numbers of pussfied soft whiny ass crybaby clueless dipshit queebee asshole fat lazy complain about every fucking thing population which think some background.noise is somehow going to destroy their quality of life.  Goddamn just shut the fuck up, and stop listening to them cause they’ll never be content. Fuck I’m sick of people.  We went to a concert last night, found it it’s the last concert ever there, due to people complaining they can hear it.  God help this stupid planet.  Meanwhile theres freeway noise and airplanes flying around everywhere, sirens going off all day, but no the dirt bike noise must be stopped. Fuck me I’m tired of people. Sorry for rant yes e bikes are cool, let’s all get them so the babies can enjoy they’re quiet before they go out and chop off your front bumper and flip you off in their Tesla’s. Sorry for the rant, all the shit going on in this world and these fucks are crying about hearing some people enjoying life off in the distance. Fuck me what happened to this place. Maybe we should all kill each other.   Lol 

Oh I am all over that!!! I'll take three, in fact.

I have a friend in AZ. that has built a few KX100-85 YZ85 bikes and builds these for others. They are a great bike for smaller and younger riders to learn on. At the Pala National a couple years ago, a 20ish year old kid won the pit bike race on one.

 Electric bikes………..it’s either a Stark Varg with a long lead time or a chi com low rent ride.  Maybe a Beta but trail bike at best.

If that’s where we are at present………….we are a long ways from it becoming the future of the sport.  Electric cars have been around a long time and are not close to being a household item.  I’d like to have an electric dirt bike.  Still a few years away before name brands are setting on a show room floor.  Even then will take a while to catch on and may not.  Most people do not want an electric car for many reasons, can’t see why electric dirt bikes are any different.  Be interesting to see how it turns out. 

I can’t see the same comparison as 2 stroke to 4.  It’s completely a horse of a different color to compare in my simple opinion.

" I wonder what is Pro Circuits future?"

What's not to like....it's making MX more idiot proof....no clutch, no shifting, no maintenence....no sound, no smell.     It's like a Tesla...mash the throttle and anyone can be fast....everyone is a hero.    People will be clearing quads too with that 80 hp yo!    

Gee...I can't wait for the first all electric SX and MX pro races.   lol

When are they coming out with scrub mode?   

Fuck E-bikes.  

That is all. 

"I don’t support the additional child slave labor in Africa to mine the lithium and cobalt"

Lithium production by country, Australia doesn't have child slave labor...

"plus those batteries they use explode"

They never happens with ICE...

"They also pollute the Earth"

Oil has never polluted the earth...

If you are so concerned, you shouldn't ride any electric or ICE bike or drive any electric or ICE cars or buy any manufactured products, you should live like a caveman, and set an example.

But here you are, posting on VitalMX with your phone/computer, which is manufactured from the same elements you are complaining about!

I have my  DIY 2010 CRF.E bike. Is it going to be my only bike, Absolutely Not. Is it extremely fun to ride? Does it help me think about the technical things while riding? Does it allow me to put in a week day moto at my in town neighbors track? Yes to all. Will manufacturers build a competitive EMX bike? For sure. Until battery technology reaches a much higher level, ebikes will be catching up to the tried and true. JMO

Wait a minute. I just found out that a Stark Varg takes 20+ bolts, plus removing the rear cross member, Skid plate and the front fender.... just to change the battery?

Hahahaha. How on earth did the designers drop the ball so hard?

In theory its like riveting the gas cap on a bike. hahaha. They nail all the other stuff and leave this out like it wasnt even thought of. 

Come on... My Suron and Talaria take me 20-30 seconds to change a battery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hl26TNFaHo

It's a different Frame / Battery and Motor Concept to your 'bikes'. Well, it's a Totally different bike to those. 

I'm sure you'll be upset by this, but they are Toys by comparison. And yes, I've ridden Surrons quite a few times (not the Taleria, but they are the same concept of bike, as far as I can see), through to the Storm Bee. The Storm Bee I put in the same category as the KTM E Freeride - well, No, it's a step below the KTM. And, none of those bikes are what I want in a Motorcycle - I've spent Plenty of time on the E Freeride. My 2 mates with them have spent quite a lot on making them have Brakes and Suspension adequate to what they ( and I) expect from a motorcycle, but well, they are still inadequate. They estimate that doing so, brought the price close to that of the Starks they are awaiting. Come to think of it, at least one of them may have his by now - I must go say Hello........

The battery in the Stark is  an integral part of the frame.  Never meant to be a "Quick Change" item. 

Yes, battery out, the chassis is 'free standing', as it is still connected to the Motor Housing when the battery is removed . But, the Varg battery, I'm pretty bloody sure, is quite an integral part of the chassis integrity. It would be quite the Noodle, without the battery (if you could magically ride it at the pace it can go, with the battery, without the battery ).

The production Starks have 3 Battery mounting points, as against the 2 in the early prototype pictures. Have a look - they now have 2 bolt points at the low section of the frame 'downtubes'. Now, it is possible the battery and forward Motor Housing Single Bolt originally accommodated a lower Battery Mount point, but they now have 2 'bolt / nut' through mounts now. AS an aside, having those 2 front lower mount bolts, 'pins' that point, effectively making it non rotational. An important thing when you've got a 'Non Closed, Hanger Chassis Mount' concept for framing. I make frames / chassis for a living - well, only part of it for many years and now, but have done so for 5 decades .

I've been meaning to do a run down on the Stark Vargs Chassis, but I think many would have no interest in it. It, the 'Steel Hanger' part to it, is  wonderfully simple, and  has a remarkably small count of individual parts to it. Watching the Battery and Motor videos finally gave me confidence in the count of the parts / weldments. It appears to be either 32 or 33 parts. The videos show the shock mount is one part, be it cast / pressed/ forged/  folded, printed, there's an extra cable mount on the RH side of the backbone, as well as the 4 pairs that can be seen in the photo below, those '3 point mounts' on the upper section of the downtubes are one piece , and I'm counting (to get 33 pieces) that forward 'Under Gussets, as possibly being in 2 halves. I'd be surprised if it's not the one piece. 

The Side plates / Swingarm plates etc, can remain in situ for a Battery removal with the Stark Varg. I love how the linkage goes directly from the Motor Housing.

And, how the subframe goes directly on the shock mount, and the Motor / Sideplates. 

Well, I guess there's my run down on the Main Frame of the Stark. 

*** In comparison, my Steel Downhill Mainframes, have between 61 to 64 pieces tor me to make / machine /  weld together- dependent on the bottom bracket set up, Be it a conventional  83mm threaded, or a Pinion Hanger. My E (bicycle) front ends, well, they are over 70 individual pieces. ***

The Stark Varg Chassis is different to what people regard as 'Conventional' MC Frames. Though, 'Hanger Type' / Open Loop Chassis have been, and still are used,  on many ICE bikes, too.

Oh, and to the people who think that 'conventional' Spar Type Aluminum frames are not suitable for an E Bike - BS! They'll be different ( easily,  only subtly ) than a frame that holds an ICE and it's induction and exhaust system, but, not hugely. And, that style of chassis, CAN lend itself to Rapid Battery Removal / Replacement. 

I urge people to watch both the Battery, and Motor removal and replacement videos of the Stark Varg. It's very interesting. It did  irritate me that they reduced the body removal section bolt / screw removals by half - mainly because I know the whingers out there will shout "J'Accuse!" : that Stark are hiding  / reducing the effort required ...... 

Now, I've just had a squizz at my old CRE sitting behind me, and I counted the bolts . nuts , screws required to remove the engine from the frame. It's a conservative 25+. Far more if I count the extra bolts of my radiator cages and Fan mounts. I'm not getting out that ancient old Engine out without removing the Cooling System. 

I've got the battery out of an E Freeride ( 6 , if I remember correctly for the battery, 1, I think to lift the seat - it's been a year or two since I did that) in about 8 minutes of my Old Man fumbling. Pretty good, but it's a totally different bike to  a Varg. 

As are, your Surrons and Talarias.