70hp 125cc!!!

vikingBoy
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Edited Date/Time 2/6/2016 12:38pm
Just to stir the pot!

Ryger has just been issued patents on new 2-stroke technology. His engine has just been homologated by the FIA to race in 125cc shifter karts.

https://www.facebook.com/luc.foekema/media_set?set=a.10204088089441588&…

in this guys^^^ facebook is pictures of the FIA document, with some pictures of the new technology.

It has been said that this 125cc single makes 70hp @ 17,500rpm! with the ability to rev to 30,000rpm!!!!!!

Not sure if I believe that grandeous statement, but either way, this new tech could be a new breath of life into the world of 2-strokes.

I have been trying to find the patent documents, with very little success. Although I'm not sure if the documents would be up on there data base yet, as the patents had just been finalized at the end of January.

Braap!
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2/5/2016 7:42am
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx.

I must be missing it. Cylinder is reversed, but that's no big deal.
mxrose3
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2/5/2016 7:53am
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx. I must be missing...
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx.

I must be missing it. Cylinder is reversed, but that's no big deal.
Take a look at that base plate at the bottom of the cylinder. It looks like it blocks most of it off - maybe creating more backpressure on the downstroke? I'd like to see a picture of the piston...
That, and there are bunch of extra transfer ports at the bottom of the cylinder.
vikingBoy
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2/5/2016 7:55am
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx. I must be missing...
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx.

I must be missing it. Cylinder is reversed, but that's no big deal.
If you scroll through the pics, you can see that there is a spacer plate between the crankcase and the cylinder. this plate seals the the crankcase off from the topend. Its appears they have achieved this by making a "dummy" shaft that rides in seals in the spacer plate. The con rod connects to the dummy shaft. pretty trick in my book.
2/5/2016 8:00am
i see now. when i tried to click on that picture the first time, it brought me to the dudes page, i guess he was "tagged" on the photo or something. cool engine.

The Shop

2/5/2016 8:01am
Wait, 70hp in a shifter cart??? Are they insane?
vikingBoy
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2/5/2016 8:05am
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx. I must be missing...
I'm looking at the ports, reeds, crankcase trying to figure out what he did differently to pick up 30hp over a ktm125sx.

I must be missing it. Cylinder is reversed, but that's no big deal.
mxrose3 wrote:
Take a look at that base plate at the bottom of the cylinder. It looks like it blocks most of it off - maybe creating more...
Take a look at that base plate at the bottom of the cylinder. It looks like it blocks most of it off - maybe creating more backpressure on the downstroke? I'd like to see a picture of the piston...
That, and there are bunch of extra transfer ports at the bottom of the cylinder.
It is hard to find, cause pics keep getting deleted or blocked, but you can find pictures of the piston. It is a stepped piston, 'T' shaped. very thin top like a pancake, and a long skirt at the back to block the exh. port at tdc. The tube is part of the piston and rides up and down in the spacer plate. This also reduces piston rock, I guess enabling less friction for higher RPM
Frodad78
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2/5/2016 8:11am
mxrose3
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2/5/2016 8:13am
vikingBoy wrote:
It is hard to find, cause pics keep getting deleted or blocked, but you can find pictures of the piston. It is a stepped piston, 'T'...
It is hard to find, cause pics keep getting deleted or blocked, but you can find pictures of the piston. It is a stepped piston, 'T' shaped. very thin top like a pancake, and a long skirt at the back to block the exh. port at tdc. The tube is part of the piston and rides up and down in the spacer plate. This also reduces piston rock, I guess enabling less friction for higher RPM
Pretty cool.
The water jacket around the bottom of the crankcase is pretty interesting too.
viking24
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2/5/2016 8:14am
So the plate isolates the crankcase...(sump now). It also closes off the transfers. The cylinder drawing shows extra ports and the homologation doc says 6 inlet and 5 outlet. My brain is exploding!
c0ncEpT
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2/5/2016 8:35am
Seems pretty generous to me. An engine that can make 560hp/Liter naturally aspirated would be leaps and bounds better than anything ever built.
bents
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Fantasy
2/5/2016 8:38am
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything close to what some people know on this board about engine design, and I read with great interest the discussion on all of these topics. What I do know is that I don't want 70 HP coming on the pipe like my 125 does now!! Who the hell could ride something like that? I mean it could be a great engineering feat, but as a practical application to small bore mx-wouldn't want to put junior on that as an entry level big wheel bike coming off an 85, unless said 85 put out some thing in the low 50's....
2/5/2016 8:47am
bents wrote:
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything...
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything close to what some people know on this board about engine design, and I read with great interest the discussion on all of these topics. What I do know is that I don't want 70 HP coming on the pipe like my 125 does now!! Who the hell could ride something like that? I mean it could be a great engineering feat, but as a practical application to small bore mx-wouldn't want to put junior on that as an entry level big wheel bike coming off an 85, unless said 85 put out some thing in the low 50's....
Umm...I would want that! Slap a flywheel weight on there if it's a bit abrupt! Imagine the power-to weight ratio! I mean I still doubt 70hp from a 125cc is possible, but it would be awesome!
vikingBoy
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2/5/2016 8:49am
bents wrote:
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything...
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything close to what some people know on this board about engine design, and I read with great interest the discussion on all of these topics. What I do know is that I don't want 70 HP coming on the pipe like my 125 does now!! Who the hell could ride something like that? I mean it could be a great engineering feat, but as a practical application to small bore mx-wouldn't want to put junior on that as an entry level big wheel bike coming off an 85, unless said 85 put out some thing in the low 50's....
I agree with you, but I've been reading through pages and pages of forums, with peeps chiming in that are apparently 'in the know', and they claim that the power curve of this engine is more broader then a standard 2 stroke. having much more usable power down low, with the ability to rev.

even if you 'detuned' this engine to make 60hp with lots of torque, the thing would be an animal!!!

new pro classes: lites- 65cc; pro class- 85cc; Open- 125 up to 150cc's Smile stamp it!!!
BobPA
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2/5/2016 8:50am
c0ncEpT wrote:
Seems pretty generous to me. An engine that can make 560hp/Liter naturally aspirated would be leaps and bounds better than anything ever built.
I agree, those numbers sound optimistic in a big way. But i have been proven wrong before
rcannon
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2/5/2016 9:27am
bents wrote:
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything...
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything close to what some people know on this board about engine design, and I read with great interest the discussion on all of these topics. What I do know is that I don't want 70 HP coming on the pipe like my 125 does now!! Who the hell could ride something like that? I mean it could be a great engineering feat, but as a practical application to small bore mx-wouldn't want to put junior on that as an entry level big wheel bike coming off an 85, unless said 85 put out some thing in the low 50's....
Totally correct, but what if this 70hp design could be worked with to produce cr500 like power down low?

Still, I really don think it can be done, other than on paper. All engines are is air pumps. So, has this guy found a way to make a 125cc air pump move as much air as a 500cc air pump? Dont think its possible unless it revs four times as high.
Krazyk2774
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2/5/2016 9:31am Edited Date/Time 2/5/2016 9:35am
I believe it is possible to make that kind of horsepower, but the cost would be astronomical and you would have close to zero reliability. NASA might be able to do it , but I have my doubts that these guys did!!
newmann
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2/5/2016 9:42am
They have had 250CC road race engines in the 90 horse plus range going back a couple decades.
2/5/2016 10:11am
how many fucking vikings are in this thread? I think we are being "berzerked" boys.
Phillip_Lamb
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2/5/2016 10:11am
i would think they would have to design the engine similiar to the 4ts. having a shorter rod and a flatter piston to achieve the highrpms claimed. its ports would have to be very open as well. it probably runs like f1 cars=no bottom end torque
vikingBoy
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2/5/2016 10:13am Edited Date/Time 2/5/2016 10:14am
I actually stumbled across a dyno graph of Jorge Lorenzo's 250cc GP 2 stroke, 105hp
2/5/2016 10:18am
newmann wrote:
They have had 250CC road race engines in the 90 horse plus range going back a couple decades.
Also the last of the NSR500's were over 200hp.
seth505
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2/5/2016 10:20am
bents wrote:
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything...
I currently own a tricked out 2002 CR 125 thanks to Joel Ard, and it is a blast to ride. I don't proclaim to know anything close to what some people know on this board about engine design, and I read with great interest the discussion on all of these topics. What I do know is that I don't want 70 HP coming on the pipe like my 125 does now!! Who the hell could ride something like that? I mean it could be a great engineering feat, but as a practical application to small bore mx-wouldn't want to put junior on that as an entry level big wheel bike coming off an 85, unless said 85 put out some thing in the low 50's....
I have an 03 CR I just rebuilt and did some mods. I thought I had read that is what Honda was going for by shrouding the bottom end with the cases (past the intake). I think in their case it just ended up creating a shitty way to breathe air in.
Cadpro18
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2/5/2016 10:21am
The fact that this engine received CIKFIA homologation is proof that the numbers are false. The CIK-FIA would never homologate an engine that has a huge advantage over the other 7 homologated engines. To do so would cause a collapse of KZ kart racing.
Bruce372
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2/5/2016 10:32am
When a electric bike can lap the Isle of Mann with an average speed of 120mph, these 2 vs 4 stroke arguments become ridiculous.

Just look at RC cars and planes, electric outpowers the high revving 2 stroke engines.

Now Elon Musk is talking about tesla planes.....
vikingBoy
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2/5/2016 10:42am
Cadpro18 wrote:
The fact that this engine received CIKFIA homologation is proof that the numbers are false. The CIK-FIA would never homologate an engine that has a huge...
The fact that this engine received CIKFIA homologation is proof that the numbers are false. The CIK-FIA would never homologate an engine that has a huge advantage over the other 7 homologated engines. To do so would cause a collapse of KZ kart racing.
Good point.

These 'in the know' guys also said that this tech is backwards compatible. Idk, maybe the other homologated engines are allowed to run with Rygers tech. or maybe Ryger is going to sell a kit that would work on the other engines. Or maybe they will develop there own, and have to pay royalties to Ryger.

Or, this is just complete bullshit all around Smile but hey, its fun to speculate!
BobPA
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2/5/2016 11:16am
newmann wrote:
They have had 250CC road race engines in the 90 horse plus range going back a couple decades.
Also the last of the NSR500's were over 200hp.
More like 170hp, there are a few documentaries on YouTube about the old 500's...
OW38B
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2/5/2016 11:29am
Honda just send registered letters to the FIM and the AMA for a ban to make sure these engines are never allowed to race against their bikes.
HenryA
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2/5/2016 11:35am
Bruce372 wrote:
When a electric bike can lap the Isle of Mann with an average speed of 120mph, these 2 vs 4 stroke arguments become ridiculous. Just look...
When a electric bike can lap the Isle of Mann with an average speed of 120mph, these 2 vs 4 stroke arguments become ridiculous.

Just look at RC cars and planes, electric outpowers the high revving 2 stroke engines.

Now Elon Musk is talking about tesla planes.....
But do they smell, scream or grenade like a combustion engine can do? Cool
kiwifan
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2/5/2016 11:38am
Very impressive engine
Bearuno
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2/6/2016 2:11am Edited Date/Time 2/6/2016 3:55am
newmann wrote:
They have had 250CC road race engines in the 90 horse plus range going back a couple decades.
I saw claims of the Full factory / most favoured Riders / Teams Gilera / Aprilia 250s in the region of the 110 /115 HP mark in the final years of the 250 class. Std Honda RS250s from 2004 were spec'd at 92PS (they had the same spec / build till 2008, the last year, I think they were listed for order) , and they were not even remotely competitive at World Level. Hiroshi Aoyama's 2009 World Championship effort was mighty, and said to be run on spare parts etc. He got Honda that last 250cc World Championships, and you can be very sure had well over 100HP. Honda, despite not being 'officially' involved, probably let a fair few rather special components magically 'stroll' out of their workshop(s). They very much wanted that final 250 World Championships, prior to it going to Moto 2, and the bloody road bike engines, that they, and only they supplied.

The very best of the last 125 GP bikes were said to be getting mid / high 50 HP levels, and, perhaps into the 60s, so, an engine such as the one that is shown in all those pictures / documents - well, I'd not be surprised by a 70HP level.

If approved by the Karting controllers, as it seems to be, one would assume it will be quite legal to race - but it may well be in it's own class / will establish a 'new' class. I don't know much about Karting - other than it's all bloody berserko - when I've gone, I've usually seen more ambulance to-ing and fro-ing at Kart races, than MX / Dirt Bike races. I think a lot of blokes remove their brains as they get into the Kart seats, and, a lot have little to no race sense. Scary stuff - so many starting Karting, just pin it - they are just a bit different to bikes - they don't fall over when you place your bum on a seat, and put your feet to the pedal plate(footpegs for us 2 wheelers).

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