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And one guy uses Pirellis and the other Dunlops... so they ARE different! 😄
Enough with the red herrings; both are within the rules for the class and you know it. 😜
Can't believe people are actually arguing that the difference between a factory 250 and a privateer 250 is effectively the same as the difference between an electric and an ICE bike.......
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What was the dissapointment?
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What's so bad about the fact there might be another way to make fast bikes?
In the comment you're quoting, I wrote that an electric series could make sense whenever other OEMs finally release their bikes. That's simply because no OEM is ready to invest millions in a single make series to compete against itself.
If anything, I think than an electric series would be much worse for gas bikes if/when electrics prove to be faster. OEMs would logically invest in the fastest series and top riders would follow suit.
Electric dirt bikes are handicapped by the rules, they've only been racing for a couple of years and they have to reduce their power compared to the standard production bike to be allowed to compete against highly tuned gas bikes, that's a matter of fact. Their potential is obvious, hence why the AMA is afraid to let them race, that's not a clever way to do things because electrics are not going away.
He can’t blame the weight of the #1 plate on this one.
12,000 people for a pro race with big names. What wsx is doing is really cool and I hope it works. That’s not gonna cut it though. If you want wsx to succeed it needs to take off at some point.
There's nothing wrong with another way to make "bikes" fast - bigger/different engines and different tuning has been doing that since they were invented. But you're talking about a totally different power source and it only makes sense to compete against like-powered equipment. Again, what's wrong with that? Any other arrangement introduces unnecessary problems... so why do it? I feel like I'm going in circles, repeating the same thing and no one has shown me why mixed platform classes make more sense than same platform ones. This makes as much sense as letting AMA pros race against the girls 6-11 class but trying to figure out how to make it "fair". Why?
"That's simply because no OEM is ready to invest millions in a single make series to compete against itself."
Sounds like a business decsion problem for people who want to see what you want. It's obvious they want a scenario arranged where they look like they produce a superior product so they can expand their sales by taking them from ICE bike buyers - this is so similar to the "4T revolution" situation of 30 years ago that it's easy to see the gameplan. I say if it's so much better, then customers will make the switch on their own rather than being handicapped by arbitrarily chosen rules, and then the exclusive e-bike series can make their own rules (but wouldn't different rated motor classes be handicapping them since you seem to believe they have a right to run whatever they can produce? I get so confused with these things...)
"Electric dirt bikes are handicapped by the rules, they've only been racing for a couple of years and they have to reduce their power compared to the standard production bike to be allowed to compete against highly tuned gas bikes, that's a matter of fact."
So, because the manufacturer chose to provide them with a motor that produces a certain amount of power and the sanctioning body says they are limited to something less, it's a handicap? That's like saying Honda could make a CRF650 but the AMA is handicapping them because they only let them race a 450cc engine. Just because they chose the motor they chose doesn't mean that they can dictate the rules or are being treated unfairly. And why are the ICE engines being "handicapped" by not being allowed to run nitro-methane or other fuels that would allow them to produce more power? That's the whole reason for rules - to define the terms of the competition.
Their potential is obvious, hence why the AMA is afraid to let them race, that's not a clever way to do things because electrics are not going away."
You've tipped your hand... thanks. It looks like this is really about making the ICE crowd bend a knee. Afraid to let them race? You just want them to be able to compete against ICE bikes with the rules set the way you think is fair and believe they'll win out and ICE bikes will go the way of the dinosaur. If you didn't, then you'd have no problem with e-bikes racing against each other in their own class, where they wouldn't have to be "handicapped" - they could tune them up to whatever the rules allowed and allow for faster development. Seems like the way a true supporter would think...
All this insanity is avoided if they simply have their own class - no discrimination, no "handicaps" and they're free to develop them however they see fit for their series. How could things be any "fairer" than that? And again, why so much pushback to having their own class? The logic eludes me.
Thanks for the debate... even though I'm a bit dizzy at this point. 😄 Take care. 👍
This doesnt make much sense does it?
A “bog,” a “stutter,” and, to add to that, the infamous false neutral can be just as terrifying at the wrong moment. In other words, saying ICE bikes are safer because they give you an "idea" is contradictory, because the very signals you’re describing are already the actual failure and cause for something really bad to happen.
Good product. Fresh approach. Feels young and not as dumbed down/overproduced. I'm a fan.
Patrick Evans interview after r1, "it feels like old school supercross with music and stuff in between.."
Just so I could watch the world burn...
Would love to see Stark unleash the bike in the last WSX race of the day. Free it from the shackles the FIM puts on it. Throw down hardcore, and if it laps so much faster it decimated the field, drop the mic and the end of the race since your getting DQ'd and peace out after showing the world what's fastest.
And if it didn't do any better? Then what's your excuse Feld/AMA?
Yeah that's the thing, they are restricted on max power but I'm not convinced they'd go faster at full power in SX1.
I think AMA let go of any pretense about why they're one of the only major national federations not letting them race. They'll open up when Yamaha, Honda are others are ready.
I appreciate the honest exchange 👍
Just ask yourself why so many national series and the FIM allow electrics to race ? And why did they chose to include them with gas bikes instead of starting electric series?
A simple and practical explanation is that they may have assessed that the development of electric dirt bikes could be somewhat beneficial for the sport. Therefore they've devised rules to include such bikes in an effort to afford riders the opportunity to race these dirt bikes (providing opportunities to ride and race should be one of the basic missions of any national federation). They've also likely come to the conclusion that an electric series would make no sense at the moment (amateur level: dedicated track time for 6 dudes or whatever in your local series, pro level: no OEM support) and that "mixed" competition is the best they can offer to satisfy a maximum of riders, until other electric dirt bikes manufacturers are able to compete (for the pro level), or until electric sales grow enough (for the amateur level), at which point federations may develop a dedicated class or series.
And to be honest, that works pretty well in a lot of countries. The AMA is one of the last federations that has not given electrics any space to race (besides some enduro series), and I think that's a bad solution for the AMA, very short-sighted. Electric dirt bike owners are just finding non-AMA series to race, and often not renewing their AMA membership. If this market keeps growing, the AMA will keep cutting itself from more and more riders instead of offering them opportunities. I understand their logic for gatekeeping at the pro level to cater for the current OEMs but for amateurs I can't see any logical explanation?
as long as the the ice bikes get unresticted fuel,
250 moto 1
52.494 = Devin Simonson
52.511 = Max Anstie
52.587 = Brian Hsu
53.690 = Cameron Mcadoo
53.981 = Kyle Peters
54.015 = Michael Hicks
54.442 = Cole Thompson
54.544 = Brodie Connolly
54.663 = Ryan Breece
54.768 = Robbie Wageman
450 moto 1
52.506 = Justin Hill
53.286 = Dean Wilson
53.646 = Christian Craig
53.703 = Cooper Webb
53.753 = Mitchell Harrison
53.977 = Luke Clout
54.057 = Colt Nichols
54.357 = Maxime Desprey
54.431 = Jordi Tixier
54.612 = Vince Friese
250 moto 2
53.391 = Max Anstie
53.635 = Devin Simonson
53.664 = Michael Hicks
53.682 = Brian Hsu
53.696 = Cameron Mcadoo
54.036 = Brodie Connolly
55.035 = Jack Chambers
55.224 = Ryan Breece
55.432 = Cole Thompson
55.544 = Kyle Peters
450 moto 2
53.358 = Justin Hill
53.411 = Cooper Webb
53.771 = Christian Craig
53.838 = Mitchell Harrison
53.949 = Dean Wilson
54.125 = Jorge Zaragoza
54.646 = Vince Friese
54.834 = Gregory Aranda
54.891 = Jason Anderson
54.977 = Jordi Tixier
250 moto 3
53.085 = Max Anstie
53.943 = Cameron Mcadoo
54.455 = Michael Hicks
54.674 = Cole Thompson
54.702 = Brian Hsu
54.749 = Devin Simonson
55.312 = Kyle Peters
55.641 = Robbie Wageman
55.962 = Luke Fauser
56.468 = Calvin Fonvieille
450 moto 3
51.726 = Cooper Webb
52.288 = Justin Hill
52.537 = Dean Wilson
52.545 = Christian Craig
53.716 = Jason Anderson
54.081 = Vince Friese
54.301 = Colt Nichols
54.352 = Jorge Zaragoza
54.367 = Gregory Aranda
54.498 = Jordi Tixier
If my bike is about to seize I can tell because the motor gives me a signal that it is failing. This gives me a chance to pull off the track before the bike dies, say on the face of a jump. Does the Stark give you any signal that its about to die, or does it just die? It's a valid question and nothing about my post is contradictory. Engines failing has nothing to do with false neutrals....
Pit Row
The scenario what ure describing..a stutter on a face of a jump? Thats exactly what I mean lol. That can already be enough for a big endo. This is already a sudden loss of power (for a short time) without any warning. Again, if the stark would be capable of actually warn the rider via its display beforehand in some cases, thats just not the same than a bike which is already starting to fail. And u make it sound like it is. All im saying
And yes ure right “false neutral” isnt related to the engine itself ofc, Ill give you that. I wasnt clear enough: Since the result is nearly the same from a safety perspective (you suddenly lose forward drive for whatever reason) I think it’s still worth mentioning in this comparison since with the Stark a false neutral simply does not exist.
Hey let’s just make it like NASCAR . Same exact setup everywhere except color change, then it’s equal and fair lol.
It’s honestly no different than the reason 4 strokes took over 2 strokes in professional racing. They were and are just easier to go faster on. Maybe Electric will be the same over 4 strokes. Although that would be boring to watch probably lol.
WSX needs to do a round in Indonesia. From what I've seen on Instagram, they can get 12K+ people at their local races. 😄
Who were the big names? I live 45mins from Calgary and passed because I didn't want to watch Webb "practice". Also Mcmahon stadium is about the worst venue in the world for access and parking. Not to mention its old and shitty. Should have just raced our outdoor track.
Hopefully our new stadium being built will be better and we get a second wack at it. Need more of the big names in instead of sitting out.
I would never tell someone how to spend their money. It was more about this series not going to work if it doesn’t gain some better traction. Also, I’m completely ignorant on the stadium conditions. It wasn’t that specific of a comment.
However to answer your question I would say Webb, dean, and Anderson are big names. Also, you have Hill, Craig, and Nicholas who won a regional sx title. That’s pretty good if you ask me.
I hear you. Just sharing my thoughts on why the turnout wasn't as great as it could be. Whether you or I consider anyone a "top guy" is besides the point although I think that is tough to call any of those top guys. Ando before his time off and Webb were my only considerations. I gave my reasons, I would bet a lot of people up here felt the same. I know at least a few that did. For me, a different venue may have helped and/or some more "top ten" AMA guys.
Completely agree on the series as a whole not working out very well.
Did Stark win everything ? No.
Were they clearly competitive? Yes.
I'd say the FIM equivalence rules are about right.
Stark has some apparent advantages (start) and disadvantages (whoops). Big deal. Quit whining and race.
And that apparent advantage will be decreased at the next round, where elevation won’t be a factor.
I was at the event. To tell the truth none of us heard of event until May this year. I think the round was likely going to some other country they had a cancellation ( example Qatar). There was no local motorcycle shops as sponsors at the event. Which was odd. Blackfoot motorsports which was at one time big in sx, mx. there was nothing. Overall fun event. The wind picking up the Tuff blocks was funny. All people laughed. Attack of killer tough blocks.
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