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I think that Kove would be the likely next candidate and bring the manufacturer count up to 10 active SX manufacturers (discounting GasGas). I think a Beta level team for Kove would be a good move for them to develop their bike and build some credibility.
After that I think that CF moto could be a possibility. With their ties to KTM and starting to roll out minibikes, I think that a foray into racing makes sense. They will need to bridge their junior riders to their big bike range. Similar concepts to what is driving Triumph and Ducati into dirtbikes.
It seems like it would only make sense to see some of the chinese manufacturers have a crack at Supercross.
The brand growth is cool, but I am most happy with Suzuki’s resurgence under HEP. Jason and Colt in addition to Kenny brings a seriousness to the team that feels comparable to their Japanese peers, like it last was with Bubba but broader.
Problem is they never modernized the rules for 4 strokes. They just followed what the manufacturers were already making. Doug Henry won on 400cc so it was obviously competitive, no need for 450.
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They can actually monitor the power available at all time during all sessions.
FIM mandates independent sensors to be mounted on the bike and they review instant power, voltage and so on after every session. Hence why Hicks got docked 5 places at one of the WSX rounds. It's very well policed and monitored, in FIM WSX, in FIM Superenduro and in every country where they race.
Also rules allow FIM to change the maximum power allowed during the season, like if electric were "too fast" they would simply lower the power limit. And unlike regulating 4T vs 2T it's easy to do, don't need extensive modifications, reducing capacity or whatever, it's all software, can be done from one race to the next. Imagine if they could have done that when they introduced 4T, "hey, next week you need to drop 50cc so that 2T stand a chance"? Well that's exactly what the rules allow them to do "Hey Stark, nice result you got there, next week you have 5 hp less".
Stark would probably struggle to finish some 30 min +2 laps MX races, I don't think SX would be that hard. They've raced and finished all 25 min + 2 laps France Elite MX rounds last year, Herbreteau ranked 6th in the championship.
And as MPJC says, that would be a reason for Stark or their riders to avoid racing, don't see any reason for organizers to ban them... just to spare them the possible loss of face in front of other OEMs? I think they're more worried about protecting the other OEMs than protecting Stark 😁
AMA is one of the last hold outs preventing electrics to race, there haven't been any major issues in other countries so it's only a matter of time. They'll be allowed at the latest in a couple of years when Honda and/or Yamaha will be ready.
Competition is always good; different price entries get more people.
I have always loved that with MTB/BMX/Cycling, really any other sport but us. You don't need to buy the top-of-the-line thing to learn. We had options, but typically they were poorly made and dangerous. The introduction of better Chinese brands that aren't just making things to sell at Autozone allows for more growth and safely.
While I think SX/MX is one of the sports where gas vs electric in the same class would have the best shot of succeeding, I still don’t like the prospects of what it brings to the sport. What you referenced is balance of power adjustments and moto has never been a balance of power type of racing, and I really don’t like the idea of introducing it. First it’s Starks getting restricted, then it’s lower rev limiters on 450s like how WSBK balances their classes.
Indeed it's kinda like WSBK had been balancing rules between 2 and 4 cylinders superbikes (or now even between 4 cylinders). Except in WSBK it's very precise, based on points accumulated and so on, for WSX and Superenduro, FIM just gets to decide whenever and whatever they want.
https://www.fim-moto.com/en/documents?tx_solr%5Bq%5D=EOT+BOP+WSX
Note the restrictions are exclusively on the electrics, nothing changed in the regulations for 2T, 4T, still restricted by capacity and with much lower minimum weight.
Balance of Performance has been used in car endurance racing, unrelated to electrics, for about 20 years (in the past couple of years it has turned into equivalent of technologies to ensure some kind of parity between hybrids and non hybrids).
There's even some kind of Balance Of Performances in MotoGP where manufacturers are classed in tier A, B, C based on their results and have more or less restrictions on testing and wildcards based on this. Thanks to that, Honda and Yamaha are catching up quicker to Ducati and Aprilia.
Bottom line is, did you think it was bad for the racing in WSX to see Hicks battling for podiums?
Nationals in the 70's had more than a dozen brands
Bultaco
CZ
Montessa
Monark
Maico
Harley-Davidson
Can-Am
Ossa
Penton / KTM
Husqvarna
Carabella
Honda
Yamaha
Suzuki
Kawasaki
and a few that were selling at the time
DKW
Zudapp
Rickmann
Puch
No one brought it up but I think we may be at the limit for SX. There are only 22 gates. Two riders each manufacture and that makes 18. Only leaves 4 slots for non factory riders.
I live in the electrical world and wouldn’t choose that route. Electric motors are typically rated 2 ways…. Horsepower is one of them. For basic conversation, they used an 80HP motor. I think the regulation should be in the motor and maxed out at XX horsepower for our classes…. Say 40HP and 60HP for example. Although this might be expensive for the MFG having to develop new motors.
Currently they are choosing to do it with software in the “controller”. Too easy to cheat in my opinion. Remember when VW programmed their ECU to report false info???
An example that works might be RC cars, which use motor size (output) to regulate performance. The top pro classes running 6.0 to 7.5 motors and the lower classes limited to 17.5 motors.
There’s still a lot to work out…. Will the AMA do it at some point? I don’t know, but I doubt it would be just for Stark. If there were 3 other viable bikes? Maybe. But then maybe that’s enough for their own class.
TM makes 1000 or 2000 bikes a year. To compete in the AMA you need 400 sold.
Sherco focuses on enduro and trials.
Do you prefer 6 manufacturers, with official, satellite and private teams or 9 factory teams and everything that entails?
Will Triumph and Ducati survive in the future? I have more confidence with Beta.
I think Triumph can. Being British based it would be cool to see them as a certified different option to KTM and the big four. Ducati I suppose time will tell.
Ducati has the deep pockets being owned by Audi (VW). So it seems that it’s more of a business decision than strictly budget and profit. TM and Sherco are probably just too small to make the investment in MX/SX racing. I do think Beta has enough interest from consumers to keep the ball rolling.
If we had more OEM Factory Teams…?
We’d add more gates or they’d find some other agreeable way to accommodate…assuming we could get to 12 Teams/24 gates.
As we get close to that day…11 OEMs (a factory filled 22 gate main) would be awesome. It’s technically possible now with Stark & TM…hey, if TM grew…that would be awesome.
Honda
Yamaha
Kawasaki
Suzuki
Husqvarna
KTM
Beta
Triumph
Ducati
Stark
TM …or Fantic…or maybe someone resurrects Maico…whatever. It’s all good to me!
See you at the races and have an Amazing New Year.
I'm all in on a new Cagiva.
While Fantic is a possibility, it would require a new contract with Yamaha since the Fantic MX bikes are primarily sourced from Yamaha and the current contract blocks Fantic MX bike sales in the US. I don’t see Yamaha agreeing to that any time soon.
When the gates are full with factory riders and the privateer is pushed out, does that mean it’s time to go back to works bikes?
Pit Row
Bad for the racing at WSX? No not at all I think WSX is the perfect place for Stark to do their marketing and do some racing development.
Would it be bad for AMA SX/MX or MXGP? Ya I think so. Ever changing balance of power I feel has no place in MX with gas engines. It would only be a matter of time before that gets pushed to the gas engines if it’s there for electric.
You can probably do some math to get a ballpark idea, especially if you knew how much gas was used in a race, but 1hp is 746 watts, so a Varg at 60hp is pulling about 45k watts? Can the 60hp bike actually hit 45k watts, or is there some fluff to these 60hp/80hp numbers? The bigger Stark battery is 7.2kwh, so what's that.....full 60hp for 10 minutes? Full throttle to zero throttle in alternating minutes for 20 minutes? Seems like that would work, but it would unquestionably be down on power by the end.
Your maths are correct but there's no need to go theoretical about it.
They've raced and finished all 12 races of 25 min + 2 laps in France pro MX last year.
You're referring to David Herbreteau? Looks like he's a 6th-10th place guy in the France series and was roughly a 20th-30th place guy in MXGP back when he was racing it from 2017-2022. He wouldn't qualify for a Supercross main event and most likely would not even make the night show. I don't think folks are really wondering if a last place guy can finish a race on a Stark, more like what would happen if Sexton, or Tomac, or J-Coop, or someone like that raced it. And that's just for Supercross, because it's virtually guaranteed that a top guy would hate the bike outdoors, which is fine, because not all bikes need to be able to do all things.
Small manufacturers don’t stand a chance in meeting the AMA Pro rules, they need to have 400 of one particular model available for sale in the USA. The European brands sell more 300 2-strokes than any other model, in some cases mote than every other model combined, To bring 400 250 or 450 4-strokes to the table is no easy task.
I’m surprised that Beta is able to meet these requirements, I would venture to guess that is also why you could pick up a 450RX for $6000 this summer. That’s a lot of money lost.
This is why you will not see any smaller manufacturers attempting to compete, it’s not because they wouldn’t like to.
Nobody thinks about this, but- SX only has so much space in the pits for 18 wheelers. More OEM’s equals more 18 wheelers, and more privateers like Moranz leveling up.
It puts a huge strain on the SX parking crew and will hit a boiling point eventually. To me, logistics will dictate a cap before anything else.
not to be mean, and as much as i like those guys, the sport needs to move past the privateers, and the concerns of gate spots for them. If they want to please the fans and keep the privateers there needs to be a 450 B main, which would be a good place for privateers.
We have a B main, it's called the LCQ. if the sport outgrows privateers in SX it can provide more money to the AX series for riders or go back to day time racing and push money down that way the 20 riders who make the night show beyond the factory guys are still making good money as they are an integral part of the program. Also more factory seats means more potential future rides for privateers that level up. It should always been seen as a positive to have more factory rides.
That being said, I have zero desire for an electric manufacturer to compete in the series as one of the next manufacturers. If more relevant e bikes can pass homologation rules then create their own class. That would be more relevant than a B main of privateers.
If the sport outgrows B mains and LCQ’s. Riders will head to other series, arena cross, whatever. Then after a while you end up with a split like Indy, tournament bass fishing and other sports.
And some of those series outgrow where it started. Which is some cases is good for whatever sport it is.
Yes, for those wondering if a Stark can last 15 (SX2) or 20 min (SX1), I'm saying there is actual racing data that it can go 25+2 with a top pro at national level.
Stark have also been racing a lot of 10 min SX races for 2 years now so they have a lot of data about battery consumption from SX tour and now WSX. At Hicks pace, which is winning in France and battling with Coty Schock, Cole Thompson and the like in WSX, no doubt he could qualify in AMA SX if he was allowed to show up. They know how much battery he has left after 10 min and they appear very confident they can race 5 or 10 min more.
As ever, the proof is in racing, for now they've had good results in all series they've been allowed to compete, winning in AX UK, winning in SX tour, and decent results (albeit with Hicks only) in WSX. Whenever they get a chance at longer SX races (which is pretty much only in the US) we'll see.
Sorry for the off-topic, there's a thread dedicated to this to avoid derailing other threads.
Listen to Lewis's podcast with Seb Tortelli. It's a good point that no electrics compete with gassers in other motorsports because the power and duration is so different. That's not an issue in supercross.
Let Starks race, don't be petrol pussies
https://www.vitalmx.com/features/direct-line-podcast-seb-tortelli-stark
Dragging out a long dead horse..
You make a great case for letting 300cc smokers in the 450 class. The fan base for SX has a lot of off road riders, a lot of them ride 300s, I think it’d definitely create some enthusiastic fans.
OK, it’s just too simple/logical. I’ll rebury the skeleton..
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