It’s time to slow bikes down

I’m with all of this but there really isn’t one single variable that’s a common denominator.  I want there to be a pattern that people can point at and “fix” but there are 20 of them.  Not one or 2.  I want this sport to be safe AND have all the positive things we love but the more I fixate on that the less I realize that it’ll ever happen.  I don’t think slower bikes would do what we’d want it to.  Maybe in some cases, but not all of them..

Unfortunately it's just a dangerous sport and that's the risk we take participating. People get seriously injured and even die on mountain bikes. I haven't heard of any, but I would guess people have died on Surrons, which are slower then a 125. I think the tracks are where we could make some adjustments to help keep the speed in check. 

I will tack on that I have quit riding altogether pretty much since Jerry Robbin.  I had big plans for my year and my bike has been collecting dust since late April/early May.

There have been more devastating injuries and deaths this year than I can ever remember.  I’m over it man.  I’m sick of this happening to people and it just doesn’t feel worth it.

Imo - need 100, 200, and 300cc... 2 or 4 stroke, same class...

100cc - for futures riders (roughly 30 hp)

200cc - for lights class (roughly 40 hp)

300cc - the elite class (roughly 50 hp)

These 70hp 450s are simply not needed... nor are 50 hp 250s for the lights class... we've gone wayyy too powerful on these bikes for the average rider

The mx tracks are out of control.  I went to club mx few years back when they would have an open practice on their public track.  I unloaded my bike made 3 laps, looked around at the other tracks they had.  Put my bike back in my truck and went home.  Like wtf are these gaps?

I have got older and just have too much to lose out there.  I'd say tone down the team extreme at our tracks.

I agree 100%

In 10-15 years ago we had a couple of deaths during the summer here in Sweden.

After that we raised the age for being able to go pro from 15 to 17 I think it was and pushed hard for a class called 125 U17.

We don’t run superminis in Europe so we ride 85’s and the next step is 125. We had a class called 125U (U stands for ungdom that is the Swedish word for youth) that riders between 14-16 could run.

And that worked fine until 2004 when Honda/Kawi/Suzuki released their 250fs and our sanction body re-named the 125U class to MX2U and allowed 250f’s in to it.

Now letting 50kg 14 year old kids racing 250f’s, and we don’t have stock or mod classes, it’s free mods.

And there things started to go south. Kids went from 85’s to full mod 250’s at the year of 14, raced one year and then turned pro at 15 and were now racing the Swedish championship against full grown men.

One of the deaths happened at a Swedish championship round, a 15 year old fresh pro rider went down in the start and got ran over and passed away.

That started a talk about the bikes were to fast for the small kids and that their bodies maybe were to small and fragile for the forces that could occur.

So for the next season they created the 125 U17 class, keeping the kids on 125’s instead of 250’fs until the age of 17, giving them a couple of years on big wheels without the power and weight of the 250f.

The U17 class got a place at the Swedish championship, letting the 125 riders to race on the same weekend as the 250f and 450f class in the same way as the EMX125 class races at the MXGP weekends. 

That has had a positive impact on the accidents here in Sweden. Giving them some extra years to prepare and to grow in to their own bodies.

The sport is still dangerous and accidents will happen, but I agree that the bikes are getting to fast. The 250f’s are leaps faster than the 250 two strokes that were the main class for 20-25 years ago. Both in power and rideability. 

I wish that we could go back to 125’s as the small class and 250f’s as the main class. That would also keep the costs down a bit for the bikes in the little class. 

Someone will now say that it’s less accidents in the 450 class but 99% of the riders in that class are more mature and that probably keeps the statistics down.

I made a thread in non-moto about karting the other week, I’m selling the bike to switch over to that for now. 

Is that dangerous too? Well, sure, someone just died at a karting track yesterday. But with so many incidents in moto lately (Jerry Robin, Matt Buyten, Reed’s daughter, Trevor Colip, Mike Brown, now Aidan Zingg), the urge to go out and ride moto just isn’t there right now.

The safety just hasn’t evolved at the same rate as the speed. Neck braces are rarely seen these days, Alpinestars has the inflatable vest, but how many riders are wearing one on any given weekend? 

I don’t know what the catalyst will be that will spark some mandatory safety measures being implemented… but we can’t just hide behind “it’s a dangerous sport” anymore. Auto racing is a dangerous sport. NASCAR implemented the HANS device after Dale died, drivers complained about restricted movement, but how many deaths have there been in NASCAR since it’s inception? Formula racing introduced the halo, drivers complained about the visibility, but how many times has it saved lives already (Grosjean fiery crash, Zhou’s flip, Max landing on Lewis’ head). 

Now look at all the issues that happened just in this last year, the threads posted recently about giving it up or slowing the bikes down, just for the sport to continue down the same path as always… Sadly, at this point, I’m afraid it’s going to take a highly-publicized incident involving a top rider for some actual change to take place. Time will tell.

No one that I’m aware of puts a gun to anyone’s head and makes them ride moto. We have enough nanny bullshit in this country these days. 

For the record, my 74 yo dad rides a 450. They’re only as fast as you twist the loud handle.

I agree. 

Idk about slowing the bikes down but moving the age up to 18 is a very smart idea imo, Im glad they did this. I always think back to cianciarulo going pro and being like 5’4” and 92 pounds and riding a pc kx250f in supercross. Once he hit the deck it was a foregone conclusion his body was going to get trashed and it was. Literally 1 year later he grew like a foot and by 2 years later he filled out a bit and was a full man. Putting that little kid in sx was borderline criminal, but he wasnt going to say no to his shot. 

All the manufacturers getting rid of 125’s has also made the sport more dangerous. Going from an 85cc or a supermini to a 250f and in some cases a star or pc 250f is INSANE. Thats too big of a jump. The progression really needs to be 85cc, supermini, 125, 250f. Hopefully kawis new 2 stroke is a 125. Ppl say they wont make a new 2 stroke but kawi is and yamaha smartly made a brand new 65cc a few years ago. They can do it. Not to mention if they wanted they could dust off their old ip cuz they all made them in the past and put the engines in new frames for now as a stop gap. Thankfully ktm owning 3 brands does give some choice out there plus yamaha. We just need kawi and maybe one more and wed be ok. 

There’s always one. Continue to roll around Horn on your 450 in vet beginner. You’re so core 

Your not really about this life are you?

None of us can get on a 450 and just cruise your local spot with 100 ft  tripples.  It's in our blood.  The sport is getting bigger and faster. The risk is getting greater.  I think it needs a chill pill.

I'll be the outlier here and say no its not the bikes. If you ever hop on a 1k street bike clears 100mph in 1st gear, that's fast. Dirt bikes are quick. 

What I really think the problem is tracks and jumps, when you have to click up nearly 3 gears up a muddy slippery ramp at your local track to clear a jump to even be competitive I feel is the biggest issue. We had a local track with even its smallest jump was sizable. Jumps are absolutely huge in some places at least at a local, amateur level they could probably be well dialed down. Not removed but when its a choice of go completely wide open to hit this or come up short into a face. You don't have much margin for error, especially if something goes wrong, up the face or in the air.

Safety gear isn't perfect but is coming along with better vests such as airbag vests, better helmet technology. 

Sounds like he was ran over multiple times. What was the flagger situation? Sure hope it was well staffed since it was a major race and it’s not inexpensive to attend. 

There was an age rule that was supposed to go into effect when Adam was going to go pro and his dad said they would race Europe, so guess what happened to that. Sad thing is if they would’ve stood their with the rule Adam probably would’ve had a much better pro career.

Doesn't the Stark have some mega HP if you pay for the map ? 

Adults making a choice to engage in dangerous sports is one thing.   12-16 yo kids on 250f is a different ball game.  Nobody is hucking huge jumps on 1k superbikes.  The 2 strokes and rough hardpack tracks of the past were safer.  This needs to be fixed and fast.  

Yep or outside forces will fix it for us and pretty sure we’re not going to like that solution. But just like all the other major injuries and deaths before this, there will be some impressive memorials and then everything will go on status quo until the next incident 😢

Is there any actual statistical evidence and not anecdotal evidence that motocross is more dangerous now than before? I don't think any official studies have been done, if so I cant find them.

Its tough to find any really clear info sadly. If none have been done it might be time to do one to help potentially zero in on the potential root cause.

Turn throttle less. Problem solved dweeb. 

No, it ain't. 

Rough hard pack tracks are not safer!!!!! 

We were JUST having that discussion over dinner. We saw the specs on the new Ducati and that started it. Plus the Zingg tradegy, another in a recent line of them. My 19 year old (racing since 5) is firmly in the camp of enough is enough. He thinks setting HP limits of 30 for 125s, 40 for 250s, and 50 for 450s would be reasonable. He rides street too and says his CBR500R at 60 HP is enough most of the time. I've ridden and raced for 40+ years and the new gen of MX is too much, although a good 250 is perfect for a 190 lb Vet. I had an MT-09 (modded pretty well) for a year at about 100 HO and it was too much. My 1979 Daytona Special is about 45, and that's not enough. Hell, UTVs are making 250 and people have wadded them bad. Another target for the insurance companies - we better do this on our own terms, first.

I agree, these bikes right off the showroom floor are faster than they need to be. Maybe a combination of slowing the bikes down and tracks that are less demanding. In the mid 70’s the AMA reduced CC limit in flat track racing from 360 to 250 in the entry level pro class(Novice) and the Junior pro class they mandated that 750cc machines run restrictor plates. They did it because too many young riders were getting hurt or killed. 

Name one thing that makes the sport great that goes away if the bikes are slowed down? Can you think of anything? I can't..... 

I'm afraid this sport is just going to die at the rate we're going. Everyone just shrugs and says "meh it's a dangerous sport" while people are being killed and paralyzed and tracks can't get insurance to stay open. The future of bikes is electric bikes that are more powerful and heavier.... This is not a sustainable path...... every motorsport goes through this but we're going to be stubborn as hell until a factory guy dies live on NBC..... 

This is a great answer, support 100%. 

The 100cc class was huge in the early days of moto, they were the safest bikes to learn on ever. Slow enough to keep speeds down, just fast enough to generate momentum to make the racing fun.

Maybe limit the 100 class to 10” of suspension travel? It’d make them even more beginner friendly.

Not sure this applies but there never should be these words in the same sentence.......................ever.

450cc  C class

and for damn sure never ever 450cc "Beginner"

Bikes this size should only be rode by experienced riders.  

may catch a bunch of opinions on this, but the reality of it is 450's are not beginner or C class friendly.  

This could be fixed racing wise by a rule change.  open riding or playing around it wouldn't impact as much.

Yes, many things need to change but you know what?   The people in the sport are the real problem.  If anyone tries to make the sport safer, better, or more organized they attack you!  Look at tracks, they all know noise is a big issue, but they won't do anything about it.  AMA did not do anything as tracks were being shut down again and again.  Safety is another major issue as you point out but nope nothing gets done and then the riders attack anyone who wants to help fix the problems.  They are turning motocross tracks into outdoor supercross tracks and they claim "real riders like a rough track" so that they don't have to do more work and prep.   I bet if we did some research, we would find patterns of when the worse crashes happen and how many crashes happen.................guessing it is 2nd motos on a very rough track.  But hey let's just keep doing the same things and expecting a different result. 

There are a few easy solutions to slow the bikes down. That doesn't cost much to the manufacturers.

1. Sound limits - Drastically reduce the db's and set the test limits to a much higher rpm/throttle position

2. Introduce RPM limitations - drop 2000 rpms from the 250 current peaks of around 14,000 and reduce the 450's to 10500 and 350 to 11250.

3. Intake size limitation - reduce the throttle body outlet diameter by 1-2 mm on the 250-350f's to force a more torque approach to the motors and not the continuous push for rpm's and peak.

I think the aim should be to get back to the 2008-2012 ish dyno numbers with a drastic sound change.