KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

MxAddic
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1/20/2025 8:26am Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 8:00pm
alphado wrote:
If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as...

If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as new?  What do all the current KTM dealers do if all the inventory is sold off?

I hope Soggy won't stomp my pee pee if I am wrong but it looks to be all PMG Brand dealers.

1
soggy
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1/20/2025 10:47am
alphado wrote:
If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as...

If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as new?  What do all the current KTM dealers do if all the inventory is sold off?

MxAddic wrote:

I hope Soggy won't stomp my pee pee if I am wrong but it looks to be all PMG Brand dealers.

Haha what?

1
GrapeApe
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1/20/2025 10:49am
alphado wrote:
If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as...

If they auction them all off, who can buy them?  Does it have to be a KTM dealer?  Can anybody buy them and sell them as new?  What do all the current KTM dealers do if all the inventory is sold off?

MxAddic wrote:

I hope Soggy won't stomp my pee pee if I am wrong but it looks to be all PMG Brand dealers.

soggy wrote:

Haha what?

Don't stop his pee pee man

12
Spoonguy
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1/20/2025 11:51am

It would be a better for the creditors to sell them, for whatever they can get.

Spoonguy wrote:
It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5...

It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5 years, let alone new ones? What would it do to the aftermarket? Track use?

JazzyJJ wrote:
Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now...

Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now, getting to the track/trails for less money would be great

Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario. Imagine how it would devalue not just KTM but all bikes. Thousands and thousands of new KTMs sold for a fraction of retail, imagine how much that would hurt other brand's sales, not to mention used bike values, and existing real KTM dealers. Thousands of new riders, unqualified, suing track owners, wheelying through sub-divisions. It would be bad.

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The Shop

JazzyJJ
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1/20/2025 12:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 12:20pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5...

It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5 years, let alone new ones? What would it do to the aftermarket? Track use?

JazzyJJ wrote:
Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now...

Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now, getting to the track/trails for less money would be great

Spoonguy wrote:
Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario...

Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario. Imagine how it would devalue not just KTM but all bikes. Thousands and thousands of new KTMs sold for a fraction of retail, imagine how much that would hurt other brand's sales, not to mention used bike values, and existing real KTM dealers. Thousands of new riders, unqualified, suing track owners, wheelying through sub-divisions. It would be bad.

So we can all get bikes cheaper, and others looking to start riding can get bikes cheaper? Still don't see an issue with bringing costs down. That's some real twisted logic or some extra gate keeping type shit 

 

And we're talking KTM so "cheap" would still likely be 5-6K for new big bikes even at big discounts. Not like you're getting one for the price of a Huffy 

2
1/20/2025 12:27pm
Spoonguy wrote:
It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5...

It would destroy not just the brand but the sport to auction or firesale off 100,000 new bikes. What would used bikes be worth for 5 years, let alone new ones? What would it do to the aftermarket? Track use?

JazzyJJ wrote:
Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now...

Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now, getting to the track/trails for less money would be great

Spoonguy wrote:
Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario...

Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario. Imagine how it would devalue not just KTM but all bikes. Thousands and thousands of new KTMs sold for a fraction of retail, imagine how much that would hurt other brand's sales, not to mention used bike values, and existing real KTM dealers. Thousands of new riders, unqualified, suing track owners, wheelying through sub-divisions. It would be bad.

Deep pocketed dealers love opportunities like this.

4
Spoonguy
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1/20/2025 1:19pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 1:20pm
JazzyJJ wrote:
Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now...

Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now, getting to the track/trails for less money would be great

Spoonguy wrote:
Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario...

Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario. Imagine how it would devalue not just KTM but all bikes. Thousands and thousands of new KTMs sold for a fraction of retail, imagine how much that would hurt other brand's sales, not to mention used bike values, and existing real KTM dealers. Thousands of new riders, unqualified, suing track owners, wheelying through sub-divisions. It would be bad.

Deep pocketed dealers love opportunities like this.

Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to try to sell 20 at 5k later? Twice the work for the same cash, all the while devaluing the brand? What makes some products valuable is there are only so many available. Availability only for those that really want that product badly, true and loyal customers. If you oversupply and underprice the value of your product is destroyed. HD is trying to resolve it's issues by limiting production for example. Would you rather sell 2 elephants for a grand a piece or a thousand mice for 2$ a piece?

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wrc777
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Fantasy
1/20/2025 1:26pm

So did Austria just dump a bunch of leftover stuff on KTM NA? You would think with the sales at the end of 2024 that a lot of 2024s were moved. Maybe only a few dealers were doing that though.

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MxAddic
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1/20/2025 3:41pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 3:42pm
wrc777 wrote:
So did Austria just dump a bunch of leftover stuff on KTM NA? You would think with the sales at the end of 2024 that a...

So did Austria just dump a bunch of leftover stuff on KTM NA? You would think with the sales at the end of 2024 that a lot of 2024s were moved. Maybe only a few dealers were doing that though.

The dealers where overstocked and mostly selling '24's with rebates. I don't think they are rushing to stock up some more. If they where I doubt KTM would be doing this. Seems to me there is no funding for another rebate program so we get this instead. If you move the stuff at auction I don't see how they would be responsible for rebates on it. The dealers take all the risk.

2
1/20/2025 3:50pm
JazzyJJ wrote:
Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now...

Destroy the sport? If anything it would grow the sport if an influx of cheap bikes hit the market. With the way things are right now, getting to the track/trails for less money would be great

Spoonguy wrote:
Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario...

Consider who is capable and who would want to buy a warehouse full of KTMs? Autozone, Walmart, Camping World? It would be an Arctic Cat/Tracker scenario. Imagine how it would devalue not just KTM but all bikes. Thousands and thousands of new KTMs sold for a fraction of retail, imagine how much that would hurt other brand's sales, not to mention used bike values, and existing real KTM dealers. Thousands of new riders, unqualified, suing track owners, wheelying through sub-divisions. It would be bad.

Deep pocketed dealers love opportunities like this.

Yep, A dealer buying group is the way to go. Buy 'em up and blow' em out.

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Spoonguy
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1/20/2025 5:54pm

If you sell a shit ton in 2025 really cheap, how many will you sell in 2026 or 2027 at full price? Do you really think dealers are lining up to destroy next year's sales?

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MxAddic
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1/20/2025 5:59pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2025 6:04pm
Spoonguy wrote:
If you sell a shit ton in 2025 really cheap, how many will you sell in 2026 or 2027 at full price? Do you really think...

If you sell a shit ton in 2025 really cheap, how many will you sell in 2026 or 2027 at full price? Do you really think dealers are lining up to destroy next year's sales?

It has been painfully obvious since long before they even warned this guy has been doing nothing that could possibly save them and is very detrimental. It literally seems every move he made is trying to destroy it.

1
2
1/20/2025 6:34pm
Spoonguy wrote:
If you sell a shit ton in 2025 really cheap, how many will you sell in 2026 or 2027 at full price? Do you really think...

If you sell a shit ton in 2025 really cheap, how many will you sell in 2026 or 2027 at full price? Do you really think dealers are lining up to destroy next year's sales?

Idk what the numbers are. When I bought extra product at the Yamaha auctions, we just added it to inventory and sold it at a discount. 

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Mototech853
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1/20/2025 7:33pm
Spoonguy wrote:
Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to...

Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to try to sell 20 at 5k later? Twice the work for the same cash, all the while devaluing the brand? What makes some products valuable is there are only so many available. Availability only for those that really want that product badly, true and loyal customers. If you oversupply and underprice the value of your product is destroyed. HD is trying to resolve it's issues by limiting production for example. Would you rather sell 2 elephants for a grand a piece or a thousand mice for 2$ a piece?

To put your analogy in motorcycle terms I’d rather sell 10 bikes and make $100 per unit than sell one bike and make $1000. In a dealership that’s 10 potential customers to spend money in parts/service versus one customer. That’s 10 customers to potentially give word of mouth advertising versus one. If a dealer can buy units below existing cost they can cost average and sell all like inventory at a lower price and still make their necessary margins. 

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sam hain
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1/21/2025 5:59am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2025 6:03am

A big multi line dealer near me bought 31 offroad '24 KTM models a couple of weeks ago. I do not know where or how they acquired them, I'm assuming they bought out a couple dealers or KTM sent them to them to move. A buddy of mine is friends with one of the co owners of the dealership and he told him that with KTM cutting production in '25 and '26 they think they can make bank on those leftover 24's when the market is starved for bikes next year. Obviously I'm not an economist nor a financial guru but that logic seems dumb to me. Why would anyone buy a new 2yr old bike when they could buy a lightly used current year bike for probably the same money or cheaper? In my area low hr bikes pop up almost daily on marketplace if you search long enough deals can be had. The problem with the above dealer is their BS fees also, what price they post online you can figure on adding in at least $1000-$1500 or more after they add fees and taxes. I know for a fact they have a '24 250xc posted for $8250, a guy I know from out of state called and offered $8250 cash for it and was told no that after fees the price was $9300. He told them no thanks and bought from another dealer.

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3strokemx
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1/21/2025 6:18am
sam hain wrote:
A big multi line dealer near me bought 31 offroad '24 KTM models a couple of weeks ago. I do not know where or how they...

A big multi line dealer near me bought 31 offroad '24 KTM models a couple of weeks ago. I do not know where or how they acquired them, I'm assuming they bought out a couple dealers or KTM sent them to them to move. A buddy of mine is friends with one of the co owners of the dealership and he told him that with KTM cutting production in '25 and '26 they think they can make bank on those leftover 24's when the market is starved for bikes next year. Obviously I'm not an economist nor a financial guru but that logic seems dumb to me. Why would anyone buy a new 2yr old bike when they could buy a lightly used current year bike for probably the same money or cheaper? In my area low hr bikes pop up almost daily on marketplace if you search long enough deals can be had. The problem with the above dealer is their BS fees also, what price they post online you can figure on adding in at least $1000-$1500 or more after they add fees and taxes. I know for a fact they have a '24 250xc posted for $8250, a guy I know from out of state called and offered $8250 cash for it and was told no that after fees the price was $9300. He told them no thanks and bought from another dealer.

It's a gamble but it could pay off because Dealers can offer financing for new bikes, the used low hour bikes are going to be private sellers.  It's easier for a lot of people to put $1k down and sign on the line than to drop $8k on a used low hour bike.  Also the dealer gives a little security since it is possible to ruin a bike in 10 hours, bike might be stolen, or you might be getting robbed.

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Spoonguy
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1/21/2025 7:30am
Spoonguy wrote:
Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to...

Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to try to sell 20 at 5k later? Twice the work for the same cash, all the while devaluing the brand? What makes some products valuable is there are only so many available. Availability only for those that really want that product badly, true and loyal customers. If you oversupply and underprice the value of your product is destroyed. HD is trying to resolve it's issues by limiting production for example. Would you rather sell 2 elephants for a grand a piece or a thousand mice for 2$ a piece?

To put your analogy in motorcycle terms I’d rather sell 10 bikes and make $100 per unit than sell one bike and make $1000. In a...

To put your analogy in motorcycle terms I’d rather sell 10 bikes and make $100 per unit than sell one bike and make $1000. In a dealership that’s 10 potential customers to spend money in parts/service versus one customer. That’s 10 customers to potentially give word of mouth advertising versus one. If a dealer can buy units below existing cost they can cost average and sell all like inventory at a lower price and still make their necessary margins. 

And then how many bikes can they sell the following 2-3 years at full cost?

MxAddic
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1/21/2025 7:40am
Spoonguy wrote:

And then how many bikes can they sell the following 2-3 years at full cost?

Seemingly that is secondary even when they are trying to convince the creditors they can pay back 1BIL in the next two years.

Maybe they know they can't and are trying to get more for them now than they will if the court shut them down.

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GrapeApe
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1/21/2025 7:42am
Spoonguy wrote:
Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to...

Deep pocketed dealers like to oversaturate markets with undervalued products? If you can only ever sell ten at 10k before, do you think it's good to try to sell 20 at 5k later? Twice the work for the same cash, all the while devaluing the brand? What makes some products valuable is there are only so many available. Availability only for those that really want that product badly, true and loyal customers. If you oversupply and underprice the value of your product is destroyed. HD is trying to resolve it's issues by limiting production for example. Would you rather sell 2 elephants for a grand a piece or a thousand mice for 2$ a piece?

To put your analogy in motorcycle terms I’d rather sell 10 bikes and make $100 per unit than sell one bike and make $1000. In a...

To put your analogy in motorcycle terms I’d rather sell 10 bikes and make $100 per unit than sell one bike and make $1000. In a dealership that’s 10 potential customers to spend money in parts/service versus one customer. That’s 10 customers to potentially give word of mouth advertising versus one. If a dealer can buy units below existing cost they can cost average and sell all like inventory at a lower price and still make their necessary margins. 

Spoonguy wrote:

And then how many bikes can they sell the following 2-3 years at full cost?

Right now "2-3 years" from now is not a given for KTM as we currently know it. They have to move inventory so they can turn the lights back on at the factory, and offering units to dealers at auction benefits the parent company and the dealers. They would not be selling to Walmart or Autozone. lol

5
indy rider
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1/21/2025 7:44am

The big question is...how much are they going to be worth once they are entirely manufactured in China and India? And who is still want one once they're essentially an orange GPX? 

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Team403
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1/21/2025 8:02am

So how much of debt is Pierre personally guaranteeing?  If KTM goes down is he ruined? Just curious🤔

ktmracer726
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1/21/2025 8:15am
indy rider wrote:
The big question is...how much are they going to be worth once they are entirely manufactured in China and India? And who is still want one...

The big question is...how much are they going to be worth once they are entirely manufactured in China and India? And who is still want one once they're essentially an orange GPX? 

GPX resale is not good. I can tell you that lol. But having KTM dealer support would still be a bonus compared to other china bikes. 

1/21/2025 8:19am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2025 8:23am
burn1986 wrote:

They only ride bikes they stole…

Maybe they are getting into white collar crime

JazzyJJ
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1/21/2025 8:55am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2025 9:00am
Team403 wrote:

So how much of debt is Pierre personally guaranteeing?  If KTM goes down is he ruined? Just curious🤔

How much can he? I'd be surprised if he was able to sign for anything significant at this point with most of the wealth wrapped up in the company's value 

Edit: According to Forbes he has a net worth of 1.6B as of 2023, but that is mostly due to his ownership of KTM equity. At this point he's already leveraged that so not sure what he could actually use as collateral 

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indy rider
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1/21/2025 8:56am
Team403 wrote:

So how much of debt is Pierre personally guaranteeing?  If KTM goes down is he ruined? Just curious🤔

Not sure how much he's personally guaranteeing but his reported net worth is more than double PMG's debt last time I checked. 

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Mototech853
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1/21/2025 10:27am
Spoonguy wrote:

And then how many bikes can they sell the following 2-3 years at full cost?

You wouldn’t need to sell at full cost. Volume sales. How many people walk into any dealership and expect to pay MSRP for any vehicle? 

2
MxAddic
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1/21/2025 11:52am Edited Date/Time 1/21/2025 11:55am

You wouldn’t need to sell at full cost. Volume sales. How many people walk into any dealership and expect to pay MSRP for any vehicle? 

They already know folks will pay $8K just about all day long. Then the dealer gets all the other benefits already mentioned and does not have to worried about a rebate credit.

1
1/21/2025 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2025 12:09pm
Team403 wrote:

So how much of debt is Pierre personally guaranteeing?  If KTM goes down is he ruined? Just curious🤔

indy rider wrote:

Not sure how much he's personally guaranteeing but his reported net worth is more than double PMG's debt last time I checked. 

But that net worth is in PMG stock, so its completely circular to say that he could give up his interest in PMG to some other party to pay creditors. That's exactly what the restructuring proceedings are to determine.

3
1
1/21/2025 2:56pm
indy rider wrote:
The big question is...how much are they going to be worth once they are entirely manufactured in China and India? And who is still want one...

The big question is...how much are they going to be worth once they are entirely manufactured in China and India? And who is still want one once they're essentially an orange GPX? 

If they manufacture components and engines in China and or India, but assemble in Austria, you would never know, they may be doing some of that already.

4
1/22/2025 6:07am
sam hain wrote:
A big multi line dealer near me bought 31 offroad '24 KTM models a couple of weeks ago. I do not know where or how they...

A big multi line dealer near me bought 31 offroad '24 KTM models a couple of weeks ago. I do not know where or how they acquired them, I'm assuming they bought out a couple dealers or KTM sent them to them to move. A buddy of mine is friends with one of the co owners of the dealership and he told him that with KTM cutting production in '25 and '26 they think they can make bank on those leftover 24's when the market is starved for bikes next year. Obviously I'm not an economist nor a financial guru but that logic seems dumb to me. Why would anyone buy a new 2yr old bike when they could buy a lightly used current year bike for probably the same money or cheaper? In my area low hr bikes pop up almost daily on marketplace if you search long enough deals can be had. The problem with the above dealer is their BS fees also, what price they post online you can figure on adding in at least $1000-$1500 or more after they add fees and taxes. I know for a fact they have a '24 250xc posted for $8250, a guy I know from out of state called and offered $8250 cash for it and was told no that after fees the price was $9300. He told them no thanks and bought from another dealer.

Sounds like Redline Powersports to me.

1

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